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Summary

➡ The text discusses the spiritual and psychedelic experiences associated with the use of salvia, a plant used in indigenous cultures. The plant is believed to embody the spirit of the Virgin Mary, and its use can lead to encounters with a feminine entity who can provide guidance or healing. The experiences are often intense and challenging, likened to a ‘psychedelic gym’, and are not considered recreational. The text also mentions a recurring motif of a carnival or circus, suggesting a playful, chaotic disruption of the norm during the psychedelic experience.
➡ A man recounts his friend’s intense experience with Salvia at a party, where he had a hallucination of being on a school bus with all his family members telling him his life was a lie. This experience deeply affected him and changed his mood for weeks. The man also discusses how Salvia differs from other psychedelics, as it feels like receiving information from an external source rather than interpreting feelings into information. The conversation ends with a discussion about the balance between skepticism and open-mindedness when exploring the effects of psychedelics.
➡ The text discusses the use of psychedelics, particularly DMT and nitrous, for gaining knowledge and insights. It references a book from the 1690s that suggests philosopher Rene Descartes used a substance similar to DMT to have visions and gain information about the universe. Another example is a man named Blood who used nitrous to understand complex philosophy. The text also mentions a research program, DMT X, which explores the possibility of staying in a deep psychedelic state for extended periods to gather information.
➡ The text discusses the use and respect of Salvia, a plant used for its psychedelic properties, traditionally by the Mazatec people in Mexico. The author questions whether the commercialization and widespread use of Salvia is disrespectful to the Mazatec culture, or if it’s a necessary step for the plant’s preservation and global awareness. The text also mentions the potential use of psychedelics like MDMA and DMT in the military, for both treating PTSD and integrating new recruits, raising ethical questions about the widespread acceptance and use of these substances.
➡ The text discusses the use of substances like salvia, MDMA, and psilocybin, and how their use and perception are influenced by their availability and legality. The author mentions the potential of these substances for both recreational use and therapeutic applications, such as helping people with PTSD. However, there are concerns about the government’s control over these substances and their potential misuse, especially in the military. The text also mentions Wasson, a researcher of Salvia Divinorum, who had connections with influential figures and organizations, raising questions about the origins of the psychedelic revolution.
➡ Wasson, a VP at JP Morgan bank, became interested in mushrooms after his wife started eating them. Despite the common belief that most mushrooms were poisonous, she proved otherwise, sparking Wasson’s curiosity. Funded by JP Morgan and possibly the CIA, Wasson embarked on a journey to learn more about mushrooms, leading him to Maria Sabina who introduced him to magic mushrooms and their traditional rituals. This information was then published by Henry Luce, despite Wasson’s objections, leading to a widespread interest in psychedelics. The US government and military also showed interest in these substances, possibly for their potential use in creating super soldiers or manipulating allies. The connection between Wasson, the CIA, and the psychedelic movement remains a topic of debate.
➡ The text discusses the controversial theory that Jesus was a mushroom, as proposed by John Allegro in his book “The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross”. The author suggests that Allegro wrote this as a troll to provoke his colleagues who were deeply rooted in Christian tradition. The text also mentions a similar case in Freemasonry where Leo Taxel created a satirical hoax to stir up conflict. The author questions whether Allegro truly believed in his theory or if it was just a ploy to ruffle feathers, given his history of creating stories from scant evidence and his disillusionment with Christianity.
➡ The text discusses the use of substances, like magic mushrooms, in various religions, despite some religious teachings against drug use. It also explores the idea of encountering entities during psychedelic experiences, with some fearing these could be demonic. The speaker, a Baptist preacher, argues that if these substances have healing properties, the entities encountered can’t be evil. The text ends with a series of questions about belief in various conspiracy theories and supernatural phenomena.
➡ The speaker discusses their belief in the historical Jesus and the plausibility of Christian stories, while also acknowledging their occasional atheistic thoughts. They also interpret the biblical story of Ham seeing his father Noah naked as a sign of disrespect towards the patriarch. The speaker then promotes their work on psychedelic theology, before the conversation ends with a rap verse.

Transcript

Connecting it to the Virgin Mary from Christian mythology and lore. And this was interesting because the mushroom, the magic mushrooms that they also used were thought to represent Jesus, hold the spirit of Jesus. And so salvia was supposed to uniquely represent the spirit of the Virgin Mary. Wow, I’ve never heard we’ve got like a male and a female aspect of this psychedelic. All both coming from the exact same isolated culture. Yeah, exactly. So, so they, they speak very highly. The, the, the. I’m not, I’m not an expert on Mazatech religion but I’ve spent a lot of time researching this for an article I’m hoping is getting published soon.

And one of the things that, one of the things that you do see is this belief that through chewing or taking the tea made out of these leaves that you can talk to interact with the woman of the plant, the spirit that lives in the plant, which for them is sort of a folk magic, folk Catholicism mix of the Virgin Mary and pre Columbian spirit that yeah, you will encounter a woman who can help you either in healing or help you identify a problem in your life. It’s somebody that you’re supposed to convene with, you’re supposed to meet.

So I think that’s really interesting because I haven’t heard, I’ve heard some stories of having a very feminine overtone to psychedelics or undertone to psychedelic. Not to psychedelics, to salvia in particular. But to hear what you’re saying that there’s a lot of different stories, particularly of meeting the woman, the shepherdess, and that this is something that the indigenous people who’ve used the substance have long said lives in this plant is really fascinating. This is those two things, the inverse tolerance for I guess like scientific novelty reasons. But now this almost feels going beyond the scientific. Unless there’s some other deeply ingrained part of our brains, it’s like organically or mechanically in there that triggers a lady in a certain type of.

But even down to the almost having a veil, like when we talk about the Virgin Mary, like the lady tends to also be shrouded or have a veil or you can’t see her face. And again, this isn’t my own experience, like it was my own experience. But this was after seeing like 30 or 40 people that had never met each other, different walks of life, different locations, different ages, like you know, 60 year olds, 30 year olds, like all across the gamut, very similar experiences which again made this thing stand out so much in my mind along with this whole concept of having to pass almost like a test or that once you get to this, like.

I guess you call it like a breakthrough. Once you get through a breakthrough, you almost have a decision to make. Or if you’ve taken so much, if you’ve done the Elephant Killer, you just, like, blast through that door. The lady’s like, wait, you’re not ready. And you’re just like, see you. You’re not there long enough to converse with her. You’re just like a cereal box in outer space at that point. But this also, I think, lends to that re. Inverse tolerance to. Again, once you’ve, like, see that? There’s a lady there? See, there’s a door there.

Now, if you are crazy enough to do it a second time or a third time or 100th time, however crazy you are, but now it’s almost like, oh, like, okay, there’s gonna be this, like, test, or I’m gonna be asked. So you almost are able to mentally prepare for what’s to come. If you. If you don’t mentally prepare first, then I don’t. I can’t even imagine someone on their very first experience making it through all of those stages and having a productive conversation with, like, the space lady, you know, whoever that ends up being. So this does feel like a labor of love might even be the right word.

But you’d have to be fascinated by all those first novel, unexpl. Unpleasant experiences, and then be like, wait, there’s maybe something more to this. Keep going. It’s almost like going to, like, a psychedelic gym where you’re like, it doesn’t feel great to feel all these muscle fibers constantly, like, bursting, and I’m sore and I can’t move properly, but I’m gonna keep doing this and see what. If there’s anything to it. It very much felt like that, like. Like there was work involved. And for that reason, I think it’s probably not recreational. I think recreational is the opposite of what salvia is.

I don’t. I don’t know of anyone that’s ever done it and then been like, wow, let’s go, like, bring this to a party. Let’s go dancing. Or, you know, some people maybe was just to see other people laugh and sweat and see how comfortable they got. But then the novelty wears off. Yeah. Yeah. And going. Pulling back to. To what you said. Where. Where. Yeah, There’s. There’s not novelty to it. There is novelty to it, but it’s not fun. I think there is a. Or even wanting to see your friends, like, laughing until they can’t laugh anymore.

I Feel like there is some element of a trickster motif to salvia. And this is something that also comes from indigenous tradition around psychedelics as a whole. Where one of, there is one study in particular that I was fascinated by and then a follow up where multiple people who were given, were given salvia for the study to see how it would affect you if it was vaporized just right in out of control dose. Multiple independent people in these studies said that they were in a carnival. So. Oh my God, man. Yeah, this motif. Okay, keep going.

Yeah, but, but you’ve, you’ve seen people experience that then personally, many. This was one of the things like it was literally a carnival. There was a huge colorful like carousel, little entities and like everyone on the rides and everything were screaming like, you know, come with us, come with us. Like it was very much like this invitational recurring motif that I’ve had personally and other people of like, man, I went to like a circus or I went to a carnival or I was at Disney World. Like lots of movement and bright colors. Like you’re, you’re getting stimulated, which is fascinating because you’re seeing like these grandos images even if you’re just, you know, in a dark room.

And this is so counter to because usually even on other psychedelics sometimes like the outside light or like the music, you’re kind of enhancing it and almost having like synesthesia. And this one, it feels like it’s coming from a completely foreign place. Yeah. And, and it’s, it’s. Well, have, do you have a lot of experience with dmt? Not really. Just isolated and it was just like like the crystal form and a buddy made it from pinch a penny pool supply or so it was like one of those experiences. Like. But, yeah, enough. But I think the, the version that I had experience with is what they used to call like the businessman’s high where you would just like be in and out and you could go back to work or whatever, but not like a profound experience, kind of just like a fun kaleidoscope that lasted for 15 minutes.

Well, so with DMT and I have a lot more, I have more to experience with DMT than I do with most other psychedelics. Terence McKenna, the, the famous 80s 90s psychonaut, talked about the motif in psychedelics, high dose psychedelics, especially dmt, as being that of the carnival or the circus. That it’s very, it’s, it’s not recreational, it’s not fun. You’re not going to a party on this. But it is almost playful. Trickster y, like the Same way I went to the state fair a few weeks ago. And one of the things I love about the state fair is it’s just a rupture of the normal in ways that almost make you uncomfortable.

All of these different people he would never interact with in real life are on your body because there’s not a ton of room. You’re eating weird food, there’s all of this noise and color and chaos, but you’re still enjoying it. And that’s sort of the vibe that I also have gotten from Salvia and seen other people describe with Salvia, though in a different sense from. From dmt, where, yeah, it. It is this. This chaotic place, this playful, chaotic thing that. That is being broadcast in some people’s minds as being that same sort of rupture of the normal that the archetype of the carnival or the circuses that people independently have without talking to each other about it.

And I think that’s crazy. Another pattern that I noticed in my limited experience, but usually people that see that carnival or get that carnival response, it tends to be when they’re on the cusp or ready to go to, like, the breakthrough, where it’s complete disassociation. Because if. If you’re feeling like I’m at a carnival, my understanding, at least in the context of Salvia, is you haven’t done a breakthrough yet. Because a carnival requires there to be a planet Earth and for humans to exist. And if you’ve broken through, none of. None of that exists anymore. Like, there’s no such thing as a carnival.

There’s just whatever you’re going through. Another, I guess, alternate version of that. The people that aren’t ready for that breakthrough. And usually someone’s last experience on Salvia. But I’ll give one particular example. This was like a high school party very early on. Didn’t really know all the rules. We’re still figuring out what the hell it was. Little incense, 5x and just like, you know, crazy house party, hot room with the lights on, loud music, and people are like, let me try it. I heard you got this crazy thing that makes you laugh and sweat, whatever. And one of my really good friends tries it for the first time and goes catatonic for, I don’t know, five, six minutes.

Like, you know, he’s there, he’s not dying or anything. He’s breathing, but, like, totally not responsive. He is in a different world. And when he comes back, he just starts crying and he’s bummed out. Like. Like, the party was great. Horrible experience for Him. And I was like, what happened, man? And he’s. He described that he was on a school bus, but the school bus was filled with all of his family that he’d ever known. Grandparents and aunts and brothers and sisters. Like, everybody he’s ever known was on the school bus. And they weren’t laughing at him, but they were all, like, looking at him.

And everyone was telling him, your whole life is a lie. And he just went like, that was what his experience was for five or six straight minutes was everyone he’d ever met in his family telling him his life was a lie. So understandably, once he comes back, too, he’s not in a party mood anymore. Like, he. He went into a weird place for, like, a couple weeks because he’s like, damn, is my life. A lot. It. It completely rocked him. And I’ve seen similar things happen to people where they’re like, never bring that around me again.

Like, that wasn’t fun. I don’t like this. And I don’t know, I guess there’s something in my brain that I want to go back there. I want to be able to ask them, like, what about my. Like, what parts exactly? Can you tell me more? Like, I want to interview everyone on the school bus, but that’s maybe not everyone’s dream experience, I guess, for a Friday night. Yeah. Yeah, I don’t think so. So the, The. Anyways, the. The point being is that it almost seems that if you’re ready to go to that next disassociative level, there’s like a.

That playful invitation, like, come on to the carnival. You’ve got your ticket, you’re ready. But if you’re not ready for that, it’s almost like you get scared away. So that you have to really want to come back. And I’m, like, overly personifying this experience. Sure. In ways where it’s like they’re not. It’s not really talking to you and trying to coax you into it, but it just feels that way. And when you brought up the carnival as a motif yet again, this particular substance being novel and that it binds to your opioid receptors, being that it has this, like, quick up and down sort of experience where you’re back in the sober reality all over again.

You might be thinking about shit for a few weeks after that, but you’re like, back in regular reality and these recurring themes that pop up in different people. I don’t know how else to explain it. I’m. I feel like I’m a very skeptical person in General, like, I, I don’t really get into supernatural experiences or explaining things away outside of maybe, like, chemical interactions, but this has been the thorn in my side since forever. I would, I would almost attribute Salvia for being responsible for at least graduating me from an atheist to an agnostic, and then maybe from like an agnostic to a deist.

And we’ll see if I can keep, like, elevating in my Pokemon evolution on all this. But. But Salvia was the thing, like with mushrooms and with all the other LSD and DMTs and stuff. Those ones and like, the group hallucinations all seem like you could at least figure out where they were coming from. Yeah, Salvi just stands alone in this regard. Yeah. And that’s really, That’s. That’s fascinating. That was the substance that, that did that for you. Because, you know, being a. Being a minister, being a minister myself, I’m a Baptist minister, but I’m a cool one.

LGBTQ affirming. Don’t think the Bible is all historical, yada, yada. But what I, What I encounter with people who say, oh, you know, came I changed either agnostic atheist to agnostic, agnostic to deists, or into theism. Is talking about, like, that overwhelming love or for that you get on a lot of classical psychedelic just, oh, I was overwhelmed by love. I was held by love. I realized there was a being of pure love. But I’ve also encountered plenty of people who were just like, yeah, just can’t explain that. No, there wasn’t a ton of love involved.

Yes. I don’t feel that way. Nuts. Like, I don’t. I don’t know if, like, for example, mdma. I don’t know if that would make me believe in, like, a God just because I understand that this, like, feeling of nourishment and love can also be triggered by, like, oxytocin or there. There’s like, chemical explanations for your body going through those feelings and the thoughts. But this is such. Such a specific complex. Like, you have to be able to form certain images in your mind, then verbalize them later and have those verbal expressions of visual things that you’re seeing and auditory things that you’re hearing and almost like information that you’re downloading.

I guess that’s. I guess that’s the key thing is that Stalvia feels like you’re getting information that you’re receiving from external source, whereas almost every other psychedelic, you feel things and then you kind of interpret those feelings into information. But I’m not. I get. I mean, there’s outliers, right? Didn’t the double strand helix technically came from like an LSD trip or something? So some people get these information dumps, but it definitely feels like salvia is like going to the library and studying for a few hours as opposed to like riding an actual carnival ride. Yeah, yeah, that’s, yeah, that’s, that’s amazing.

I’ve really love, I’m really loving this discussion because when, when I’ve, I’ve met lots of people talk about having these information dumps with, with other psychedelics. I met somebody who said that he had met Jesus and Jesus like told him about the gnostic gospels of Philip and Thomas and this guy was like, those don’t exist. You don’t know what you’re talking about, yada, yada, yada. And after the trip found out that those gnostic gospels do actually exist. But the way I’ve come, I’ve sort of been able to hold like the psychedelics might do something here, really do something.

I’ve really felt with salvia, that sense of like the veil being pulled back into something else. Very sacred in ways that other psychedelics haven’t done that for me. But being able to hold it for me has been really just thinking about dreams and the way that ancient people used to handle dreams where you know, we go to, we, we all go to bed at night and have these nightly hallucinations that we kind of just decided, you know, just brain doing weird brain things. But lots of people have described throughout history and contemporary, in a contemporary form having dreams so intense, it’s like they’re in real life and it’s bizarre and it’s strange and it changes them.

They decide to change careers or change, change the way that they live their lives or parts of their personality. And being able to hold that, like maybe something else is going on here, but also maybe it’s just a drug. Being able to hold both of those at the same time the same way that a lot of, a lot of cultures have done with dreams for years. Yeah, maybe it’s the gods, maybe it’s the spirits or maybe you just had some bad food. Being able to hold both of those, being skeptical and open minded at the same time is difficult to do.

But I think it’s the only way to explore these things without going just absolutely batshit. So since this seems to be like your area anyways, I want to recommend three, I think, yes, two or three different books or like areas. If you haven’t heard, let me know. If you haven’t heard of these or if you have, these ones are kind of equal in fascination. So one of them is a book from like the 1690s and it’s called A Voyage into the World of Cartesius or like the Cartesian Voyage. And I, I forgive you if you haven’t heard of this because I, I dug this thing out from like the depths.

I didn’t see anyone doing book reviews on it on any platform. But I found it through, I’ll give you the short story. I found it through a weird article in like the 80s that talked about this group of men that were eating pineal glands and like, like having psychedelic visions off of them or something. It was like, that’s, that’s weird. And then I found that was a reference to an even older newspaper article from like the 1800s that didn’t say anything about eating pineal glands, but it said that something related to the pineal gland and that they were ingesting psychedelics and that they could live the lives of other people.

I was like, what the hell is this? I keep rewinding this back until I found the original source. And it was this book from the 1690s. And the whole premise of this book, I believe it was a very tongue in cheek explanation of deep Rosicrucian and like very high level theological, like philosophical ideas. But it took place with the protagonist being Renee Descartes. And Renee Descartes was known to have narcolepsy. I believe he would like pass out in front of people and stuff. But this book was explaining that really he had some sort of DMT substance.

They didn’t name it as DMT because this was in the 1690s. The book was written, but it was some Chinese herb that would cause you to go catatonic and see visions and get information from these other worlds. And I’m reading this, I’m like, this has got to be DMT or some sort of analog to DMT that we’re talking about here. There’s plants that. But, but the description was that Renee Descartes would do this snuff. He would become catatonic for like, I don’t know, 15, 20 minutes or something, maybe in the court, sometimes hours. But when he came back he would describe of being out into the universe and getting direct lessons about how the universe was constructed, how like this Rosicrucian concepts of matter and dust and like plasma and vortices, like vortex math.

He would come back from these astral travels and have all this information and dump it on everyone and Was kept explaining that this was the way that he was coming up with these new ideas and bring it back. Now, I think the book itself was just a vehicle to explain some sorts of crucianism, but it shows that people were clearly aware of this concept of taking a psychedelic and getting information from external source and bringing it back. There was another one that’s not dmt. This is actually nitrous related. And I don’t know, has this nitrous come into your purview of when you talk about like psychedelic and theology, or is it in its own category? I think it fits just in the dissociative hallucinogen category.

So it kind of does its own thing, but still has had a lot of impact on people. So here’s another one that I do think that you might be interested in. It’s. I think the guy always get his name wrong. It’s either Paul Benjamin Blood or it’s Benjamin Paul Blood. People that have two first names, his middle and first name, it gets dicey. But this guy Blood, he was in his 40s, I think his late 40s, he went to go get a tooth extraction, was not like an alcoholic. He was just like a poet and kind of a researcher, like a normal guy.

He gets a tooth extraction and on the way back. I don’t know how strong the nitrous was back then, but apparently as he walked back to the house, he was still feeling it. And by the time he got home, it had completely sort of evaporated. But he had this profound realization that on his walk home, he understood Hegelian philosophy, which was something that he had struggled with his entire life. And for whatever reason, it just like it clicked. It was like he was in the jazz group and he just like fit right into like the improvisational sort of like flow that was going on.

But it got frustrated because once the height. So anyways, he starts going back to the dentist and eventually just gets hooked up on his own supply of nitrous and spends the next like 10 or 20 years of his life kind of doing what we’re describing here, but just nitrous. He just would get super blasted on nitrous and then try and contemplate philosophy. And over time he developed, and I think it was called the anesthetic revelation of philosophy, something like this. But he. He basically has this theory that you are able to talk to some higher type of intelligence and bring information back.

But. But it’s so overwhelming, the information is so deep and complex that it can’t like cross this barrier without losing most of it. And even in that Cartesian voyage book, they describe something similar. They do it in a. A little more illustrative way. But he mentions that he was given, like, a scroll or a book. But when he’s in this astral realm and he tries to fly back through the house into his body, the house, like, blocks the book from coming in because the book is like this tangible, physical thing and he’s in an astral form.

I take this as a metaphor in a way, but Paul Benjamin Blood describes it the same way, but he was like, you have all this information and it’s almost like as you’re sobering up, you can see it just dissolving from your hands, but you can, you can grab like tiny little bits of it. If you hold them really tight, you can bring them back. And his idea was, well, if you keep just going there over and over, maybe I can bring it back, mustard seed at a time, and eventually I’ll have something to build on. He didn’t, he didn’t have a whole lot to build on other than this idea that you can bring it back.

But this is another fascinating topic in psychedelics. That’s way outside of the inebriation and the euphoria thing of, like, getting information. This is almost like a struggle. This is turning it into a job or into work, like a frustrating experience to keep wanting to go back and do all of this. Well, have you. I have not heard of those two sources. I’m going to look them up because that’s. That both of those are fascinating. I want particularly the Cartesian one because that was also based on, like a Jesuit pre. Like it. It has heavy, heavy, like, theological context to it.

I’m. I’m going to check that. I’m going to check that out. I wrote it down to, to look it up later. Are, Are you familiar with DMT X? The program, the research program? No. So one of the things with DMT is that. And I think this is like the setup to a bad horror movie. One of the things with DMT is that you don’t build. You, you don’t build a tolerance to it. You can continually stay in that space if you have an intravenous DMT drip. So at University of New Mexico with Rick Strassman, who wrote DMT and the Soul of Prophecy and DMT the Spirit Molecule, he was doing this right in the arm, right to the brain.

And because it doesn’t have a. It doesn’t have a tolerance, you can stay there for hours in this Deep DMT state. So going back to like Timothy Leary in the, in the 60s and 70s, they were looking for ways to stay in this deep, deep psychedelic trip for as long as possible, become used to being in this deep, deep trip, and come out of it just enough to write down what you can or communicate what you can, and then they’ll turn it back and you’ll go in again. So they’re talking about it literally being a psycho, not like being an astronaut, getting trained to go deep in the DMT realm for hours and hours at a time.

And I don’t know how well that’ll work. And I also think it sounds like the setup for a bad horror movie, what we’re describing right now. Right, right. On John C. Lilly’s work, which is kind of Timothy Leary with dolphins. Yeah, but that’s this, this is the sort of, this is where people are sort of going at this point with psychedelics is I, I’m a little, I’m a little bit more cautious in that. I think it should be kept, it should be kept mysterious. We shouldn’t play with things that we don’t understand quite yet. But there are people, there are people funding and looking for creat to go deep into psychedelic realms for extended periods of time to try to wire back exactly what goes on in there, which is just crazy.

I feel like I missed my calling that app. That absolutely sounds like a career field that I would opt into if it were something that didn’t seem like you could end up in federal prison on the way to like studying to get there. Right, yeah, yeah. And you mentioned something else earlier too, and I guess for like a point counterpoint thing, like I’m interested in your, your take on this, I guess, subjective area, but you mentioned that you haven’t actually smoked Salvi before and that specifically you use like the, the loose leaves in the mouth. Not just because it’s traditional, but almost like that’s how it’s seen as like respectful.

And I’ve also talked to recently a guy named Sam Believe who runs an ayahuasca retreat in South America, like I think the most successful one. And he had similar things about that. Some people will do like a DMT vape pen or they’ll do the pension penny, you know, supply. Like, like I got introduced to it, someone ordered mimosa bark online or something and does it in their garage. But that those aren’t like the respectful ways of doing this. Aside from that, you want to have all the other elements to it in a guide and Set and setting and.

And even just a non isolate, the same. I guess a good analogy, too, is, like, the medical marijuana field, once that started getting advanced, now all of a sudden, people care about terpenes and this entourage effect. And it’s not just the thc. Maybe it’s the CBD and the CBG and the CBC and, like, the limonene. Like, all these different things together have a different effect than each of them sort of isolated on their own. So I acknowledge that, and I’m almost assuming it’s probably the same. If you were to do just salvorin A or just salvorin B or C, like, you probably want the whole effect so that acknowledgment out of the way that, like, yeah, you want the whole plant sort of effect, because that’s how tradition was done.

But the respect angle, I almost feel like I’m. I’m intentionally disrespectful sometimes. If someone’s like, oh, the. The ancients in Mazatech, they would want you to only do the loose sleeves. Like, give me that 600x. I’ll show them wrong right now. Like, but I wonder, do you think that there’s a possibility that I’m actually angering some ancient spirit? Like, I have. Am I actually causing an egregious or, like, causing a bad first impression on some astral deity, unbeknownst to me, just out of this knee reaction? Because. And to explain. I guess part of my other thinking is that how fair is it that this one tiny area on the entire planet, you know, gets to have salvia and no one else gets it? And it’s almost like, who.

Like, finders keepers. Just because it was found in this region and this culture developed around it, and they decided, what’s the respectful use and what’s not? Don’t make extracts do orally only. Is that just convenient? Because geographically, they happen to be the first one that found it. What if the conquistadors came and they found it before the Mazatech found it? Do they get to set what’s respectful and what’s not? Or is there, like, an inherent respect in using some of these. Yeah, that’s a really good question. And this is something I’ve been wrestling with for a while.

You know, there’s. There’s a great. There’s a great anarchist greenhouse in Maine that sells salvia plants legally only to the states, where it’s legal because it’s not federally scheduled, and you can’t really grow them from seed, from what I understand, like, you almost have to grow them from clones. Yeah, you have to grow it from clones. It’s really, really difficult to do. But they donate all of the money made off selling these to a Mazatech culture and language charity, a nonprofit to protect. To protect the Mazatec people. And my, my sort of view on it, my sort of view on this, because people ask, well, why do you.

Why would you treat salvia differently than you treat, like, magic mushrooms? And my, my sort of feeling on that is that, like DMT or magic mushrooms, this is something that’s found all over the world. This is. Almost every single continent has magic mushroom, naturally occurring magic mushrooms on it. In that it’s not geographically condensed, same with dmt, that it’s in virtually every living thing that comes from the same amino acid that turns into melatonin to help you sleep, comes from the same amino acid that turns into serotonin, can turn into DMT if it. If it’s metabolized.

Right. But salvia, Salvia particularly comes from this Mazatec valley in Mazatec people in the Wazaka Valley of Mexico. And so my kind of view of that is one, the Mazatec people have been horrifically oppressed and genocided over an extended period of time. There was, I was reading some of the early history, the stuff that Wasson doesn’t put into his stories, where dozens of Mazatec villages were completely washed out to make room for a dam to sort of industrialize the area. There were multiple massacres when psychedelic. When magic mushrooms in particular became very popular in Huatla de Chimenez, which is a village in Wazaka with a lot of Mazatec people, there were.

There was sexual harassment, there were assaults, there was this treatment that the Mazatec people are just these primitive savages. And we, the great researchers, can extract, take the. One of the only things that they have that we have not already taken from them. And so for me, one of. One of my primary. One of my primary values in life is on justice and on standing with people, standing with people who’ve experienced a lot of injustice. And so I think it actually is very possible that by continuing in the commercial exploitation or cultural exploitation of this small group of people who have already suffered so much that, yeah, we might be angering something bigger than ourselves, actually.

But I also think, for me, it’s also a form of reparation that giving back to people who have done so much for us. If it wasn’t for. If it wasn’t for the people. Maria Sabina who was a Mazatuck shaman there in the area, we may have never had a psychedelic revolution if she hadn’t agreed to do this ritual with our Gordon Walson. So we owe the Mazatec people a lot for how much they’ve given to our ability to expand our own minds. And this to me is just a small way of being able to give back respect to their culture, give back.

Give back money to their culture and just express my gratitude for how much they really have made it possible for me to expand my own spiritual and inner life. A phenomenal response to that, and that’s a great point that I haven’t considered that almost every other psychedelic known to man can be found or developed in a lot of other areas, whereas salvia, miraculously, even Wasson, I think, notes this in his, in his research papers that when the Spanish explorers came, they absolutely decimated these people. They found the marijuana plants and the mushrooms. They got rid of all of it.

It was, it was basically tickets straight to hell. Like, why would you want to talk to Satan? We’re going to get rid of all this. But somehow they overlooked or weren’t aware of Salvia, or maybe the Mazatec people knew how important it was to keep it sort of secret. So they just weren’t aware that it was something that they also probably would have stomped out. And if they had stomped out Salvi at that point, it might have just, you know, disappeared from the planet and never been known to anyone outside of the shamans that had used it for generations.

But I think that also another counterpoint to my. My sort of unapologetic endorsement of capitalism and commercialism, that the, the silver lining here is that without 14 year old me ordering, you know, like literal ounces and pounds of salvia to, you know, the suburbs in the early 90s, that it could have also disappeared, just being irrelevant. And that if it weren’t for the psychonaut and the commercialized and the widespread aspect, like someone in Australia or Canada or anywhere else in the world not even know that this thing exists, let alone have the ability to try it.

So I don’t know. I feel like there’s good and bad of this. Clearly, at some point in the future, the Mazatech will probably just be like an echo, its former self propped up because of all the contributions they’ve made and like the reparations they’re getting from it. But if it had not been commercialized, I don’t know if the same could still be said. Yeah, I just. Particularly when it comes to things as powerful as these substances. Yeah, like, you know, right now the US government is planning to use MDMA and DMT and psilocybin and all these substances not just to treat PTSD for veterans, which I think is very important, but also as a means to help quote, integrate new recruits into the military.

This is new to me. I haven’t heard this before now this has been a shift that you’ve seen with the multi, Multidisciplinary association for Psychedelic Studies Maps. The, the, the research that they’re doing that’s funded at a federal level for how psychedelics can be used in the military. People really struggle obviously when they first come into the military. The rigor, the, the, the change in what civilian life and military life is. I come from a military family. I’m, I’m, I’ve heard these stories before and so the idea is, well, what if all of the love and joy you felt on MDMA was associated with, with the new place you’ve come to call home, the U.S.

military? And those are the sorts of things for me that I just wonder, you know, does this, the ends getting psychedelics to be more widely accepted, getting these substances to be out and use to expand our own minds. I don’t know if sometimes that justifies the means where we could actually the long game of being able to use these substances freely decriminalized in safe set and settings. We’re all going to be super soldiers. I, I think, I think whether it’s, whether it’s the way that, that salvia was sent out with, with the, the in head shops and stuff like that, or MDMA and psilocybin of DMT being used for military application.

I think it really does affect the way we use these substances, the way we see these substances depending on how we’re getting them into the public sphere. And I do wish that when it came to salvia, when I, when I got my salvia plant, which is for decorative purposes only from this main greenhouse, it sent me a nice sheet that looked at, here’s how. Thank you for buying this. We worked with a consultant. Here’s how you use it. If it’s legal in your state, this is how you take it, blah, blah, blah. But it was a way that simultaneously I could cheaply and easily get this incredible plant and at the same time be able to support and be part of a community that was giving me millennium of wisdom on how to use this plant, on how to respect this plant.

And I think, I think we can, I think we can Both and in the long term, I think it. Maybe if it had gone that route instead of the head shop route, maybe it wouldn’t have had the moral outrage or the social media outrage or any of that that ended up getting it suppressed if it took a different route. So I think there’s this sort of spiritual moral, for me anyways, very spiritual moral side of it. But I think there’s just the very practical side that I don’t want the government telling me this is how you must use these substances.

And I also don’t like the government telling me what I can and can’t do with my own mind. It’s a good point. I guess my. My most practical thinking is the reason that it came through the head shops was sort of like you described earlier too, that you might see a bag of K2 right next to a bag of salvia in certain places because both of them are seen as legal highs. Like, here’s a way that you can, you know, go and party without getting pulled over and sent to jail for it versus this other plant that is illegal for you to own and possess, depending on the state or whatever.

So that novelty. But the. The main thing for me, I guess K2 included, is that again, growing up with like wizard weed in the back of high times and all these inert plants that looked cool but didn’t do anything at all for you, like smoking banana peels and eating nutmeg, which I did, by the way, and it does work, but it sucks. I don’t recommend it. I ate like a whole thing of nutmeg. But the most of the experience that people had, like, you would get suckered one time. You’d get wizard weed one time and be like, okay, I’m an idiot.

Of course it doesn’t do anything. Of course. That’s why it’s legal. So then when Salvi comes along and it’s like, oh, yeah, great, another legal high, and someone tries it and they’re like, oh, my God, I never want to do that again. That was intense. Like, that was like, I had a tangible effect. You didn’t have to convince yourself. I think I kind of feel weird. Do you guys feel weird? There’s none of that ramp up. You’re just like, I am a wall. You know? Then you come back and I think that’s probably the only reason they got spread around is because they’re like.

Someone was like, hey, have you tried this legal high? Oh, yeah, of course. None of those work. And it’s like, no, no, you haven’t. Tried this one and that that’s kind of what breaks it through. And I don’t know if it would have had the same effect on people. Like, hey, like, let’s keep this really sacred. And it’s a very intense like, like introspective experience. I think what made it popular was this will make you jump out your window. Like, this will make you like flail around and hit somebody and break things that you can put on Vine.

And it’s almost like a double edged sword that its popularity might end up saving it, but also gave it this horrible look. And I think it’s ironic I had never heard about using psychedelics to integrate people into the military. When I was at Disney, we actually did a whole bunch of PTSD training and stuff. And a lot of the resources that were coming in were using psychedelics, specifically MDMA and psilocybin, in order to help transition people that had been through trauma and like reintegrate them in a life essentially. I think if I go back to my skeptical, like biological neurological explanation, because it enhances neuroplasticity and enhances new neural pathways to be formed, this might also be one of the explanations for this culture of microdosing, is that you’re kind of making sure that on a neurological level you constantly remain open to new connections and new patterns being formed versus being kind of closed off and selling into patterns.

So I can, I can understand that version of it. But there’s also this idea of integrating into the military. And the irony is that originally psychedelics being used by the military was to induce this, like the trauma. Like they were using it to create the trauma and then instill the programming. And then at some point someone was like, wait, we can undo trauma too. This is crazy. Let’s start doing this. And then a guy in the back of the room’s like, wait a minute, like, we can kill more people doing this. And this almost reminds me of the Men who Stare at Goats, which is a movie turned book by Ron Johnson or one of my dad’s favorites.

Yeah. And. And that also was the same, I think, premise in a vague level. I think Project Phoenix, I might have that wrong, but that they realize in Vietnam, and I’m just summarizing parts of the movie, but that even if they were trained to use a gun when they were like, okay, shoot all those guys across the field from you, a bunch of people would like intentionally, maybe like unconsciously miss because they didn’t have that killer instinct, and a guy ends up doing a whole bunch of acid and gets into like the free love movement and Star Wars Jedi mind tricks.

And instead of like, we are all one, it’s like, no, we are all one. And because of that, we can teach people to shoot. Like, we can teach people to kill on site because we’ll get them into this completely other zone where it’s like, don’t worry, you’re just taking out another aspect of yourself that’s just another, you know, experience of God. And that experience of God over there wants to know what it’s like to get shot right now. So, dude, that’s kind of. I’m oversimplifying it, but that’s always the military’s end goal. Famous like this. It was a wake up call.

But my first day into like actual training out of boot camp, and everyone was telling me constantly, no matter what training I was going through is like, this is the Air Force. But the whole point for us to exist is to kill people and break their things. Like whatever, the humanitarian aid and defense, all of that. Forget that your job from now until you leave is to kill people and break their things. Everything else leads to that. And this is sort of why, I guess I would be scared of the military being the one that embraces psychedelics.

So let me, let me segue this a little bit to Wasson because I mentioned before you’d come back up. Wasson is a name I only heard of because of Salvia Divinorum research. I wanted to know what this 5x incense stuff was. And every single paper that seemed to have any insight was by this guy Wasson. Who the hell is Wasson? I didn’t realize who Wasson was until many met like two decades later through I guess, like conspiratorial research. They’re making these claims of. The CIA is the one that introduced psychedelics and started the psychedelic revolution, which seems far fetched on the outskirts.

But once you learn about all of this, and then I was shocked to realize that this Wasson guy was the VP of JP Morgan Bank. He was like a close personal friend of J.P. morgan. He was a member of the Century Club. If you don’t know what that is, I forgive you. It was a. A very elite, private, secret society, but kind of like a private social club in New York that a bunch of movers and shakers were members of. He was also very close friends with a guy named Henry Luce who ran Time Life magazine.

Henry Luce was a Skull and Bones member, which is also a very highly coveted secret society out of Yale. But if it weren’t for all of those pieces in play, if it weren’t for Wasson working as VP for JP Morgan bank, if it weren’t for him being a member of the Century Club and his connection to Loose via the Century Club, there also might not have been a psychedelic revolution because the sequence of events, as I understand it, Wasson becomes fascinated with mushrooms because his wife, I think her name was Marina, his wife, they go out into the woods and she starts picking mushrooms willy nilly and like eating them.

And he starts freaking out because as he writes in his book later that the western world had like five names for mushrooms and like four out of the five all indicated poison. So if it weren’t like just a typical button mushroom or like an oyster mushroom, maybe if you got really exotic, it was poison and you should stay away from mushrooms, they will kill you. And she was like, that’s crazy. Like there’s four, like I eat 40 different types of mushrooms. This is part of a normal diet. No one thinks like this where I’m from. Basically, like, like Russia, I believe.

Yeah. And this kind of sets him down this path. Like why, why do, why am I afraid of mushrooms? Why did I freak out on her thinking she was gonna die if she ate these? So he starts on this journey that’s funded by J.P. morgan, by maybe the CIA and some capacity. And he finds Maria Sabina, right? And she’s the one that gives him the these traditional sort of rituals. He gets introduced as to magic mushrooms, he gets introduced to salvia de venerum. He brings this information back with him, tells Henry Luce about it, Henry Loose publishes it.

And I guess Henry Lou’s technically is the one that calls it magic mushrooms. I think, in fact Wasson and his wife are like, please don’t. Let’s not sell this as a magic mushroom to all these housewives. They’re going to be reading Reader’s Digest and Life magazine. Henry Loose does it anyway. Henry Loose becomes such a strong advocate of psychedelics, he encourages his employees to all do acid, to all take mushrooms, to try all of these things. So he’s pushing it in like this corporate world. And then at the same time, LSD being obtained by the military, the US government bought the entire world supply, I believe at one point in like the late 50s.

And it starts making it way through all of these high level military installations. And then in the Hollywood, which has a reason for it. I won’t go down the the explanation there, but here you’ve got psychedelic movement literally coming from skull and bones and coming from the military and coming from Hollywood and all pushing it on the rest of the country. So I know a lot of people that are now skeptical of psychedelics, period, just as an umbrella because it’s this big military psyop to do who knows what. So you’re the first one that gave me an answer to that.

The who knows what is because maybe they can train you to be a super soldier. Maybe you won’t resist the draft if they give you a huge, you know, hit of, like, magic mushrooms first. And then they’re like, sign this paper. Yeah, well, it’s. It’s. It’s when you’re. When you’re getting into the military and. And, you know, a lot of. A lot of neo Nazis and white supremacists and those sorts of groups use psychedelics at this stage. I wrote a fun Fund’s the Wrong word difficult paper about that a few. A few years ago. Really Nuts Tripping Nazis.

That sounds like an awesome paper. Yeah, there was an easy read. Is Lucy in the sky with Nazis that if you Google it online. It’s not my paper, but it’s the first one that introduced me to this idea. Okay, but. But the idea is kind of what you’re saying where. What you were saying with the. The men who stare at goats, where you get. You get this idea in your mind of, oh, well, let’s bring you back in touch with love and with connection and with the oneness of the universe. And it’s turned into this, like, yes, love for your country, love for your particular racial group, connection to your commanding officer.

Those sorts of things where these. These good and normal things that human beings do have, love, have, connection, have. Are weaponized to make people fall in line, which is terrible. But I will say with Watson and the CIA connection, we do have one document where Wasson, somebody who went with Wasson on one of his trips to Maria Sabina, was a CIA operative who was being paid by the CIA and the missionaries. The connection that’s really rarely noted is that Wasson first contacted a missionary named Eunice pike who lived in the area and was trying to translate the Bible to Mazatech.

She was part of something called Wycliffe Bible Translators or Summer Institute of Linguistics. They later also were exposed for having possible ties to the CIA and were kicked out of a number of countries as a result. So when you say possible ties, I hear that as a CIA front group, like a. Yes, like a laundering front. More. It’s sort of like this. The CIA hates Communists. Wycliffe Bible translator hates Communists and Catholics, which are connected with communism in some of these countries. And so anybody who’s lightly left of thinking that, you know, Catholics should be hunted for sport are then working with this mission group, is working with the CIA.

And so there’s. There’s not a ton of hard evidence that Wycliffe did this, but there’s enough connections there that have been published in different books that it would be utterly unsurprising if new data did come out confirming this and tying that in with the fact that there was a CIA operative in this area with Wasson while he met with Maria Sabina, so that a Wycliffe Bible translator could translate the recording he did of this particular, particular magic mushroom session. I just think the connections there are so wild. The US clearly wanted military application from early on, and particularly military application to see if they could create allies where they previously didn’t have any through chemical manipulation, which is insane.

The Nazi connection, too. I mean, another instance of the Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend were like the Vatican rat lines, right? Where they’re like, well, it’s better than communism. Maybe you’re not doing what we want, but it’s better than. Than being godless. Like, God forbid you be godless. So here’s an escape route that was another instance of that. Also the CIA connection. Wasson is named, I think, in the JFK reports, so he also had. He was tangential to a lot of people involved. I believe he was close personal friends of the Dulles brothers that, you know, ends up being director of the.

The CIA and everything. So, yeah, there’s so many deep connections with Wasson and the CIA and the psychedelic movement that I don’t know how to ever parse at all. I don’t know if it’s a good thing, a bad thing, a coin. It doesn’t seem like it’s a coincidence. I’m a little bit too conspiratorial to believe in that regard, but it does seem that there was, like, an intentional release of this information to the public for who knows what the hell reason. So to get away a little bit from salvia in particular, and I guess just more into psychedelics and specifically theology more.

Because. Because when we first started talking, you were like, well, I’m not just a salvia enthusiast, actually. You’re like a, what, a Baptist minister that specialize in psychedelic theology? And my mind immediately goes to the Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, which I assume that you’ve read a few times are familiar with. John Allegro. Yeah. The premise being in my bumpkin simplified version. But the premise being, I’ve interpreted it, is that some point in the past. And this also is based on the Road to Persephone, I think, which is another Gordon Wasson book that he co wrote.

And there’s also like Food of the Gods or something that he wrote with Hoffman. But the idea was that maybe the original Eucharist wasn’t unleavened bread. It wasn’t like this little piece of cracker that you break in half and hand out to people, but that this might have been a magic mushroom or an amanita mascaria or some type of a psychedelic. So that when you went to mass and ate the body of Christ, you were actually having a real psychedelic religious experience from that. And he also goes on to cite that the amanita mascaria mushroom, in the wild, they show up after it rains, and then in the sunlight, it will turn into like a gold color.

The cup will sort of invert itself. The rainwater will soak up the red pigment on the top. It looks like a golden chalice with blood inside of it. So now you’ve got these motifs for the holy blood and the Holy Grail, all kind of linking back to mushrooms. Santa’s a mushroom, Jesus a mushroom. Voodoo’s a mushroom. How much of this do you believe? Do you think this is just like, oversimplifications? Is it blasphemy to say Jesus was a mushroom? You know, my. My take on. I wrote a. I wrote a paper on this too, because I was fascinated by this book.

My take on this is that he was actually writing this book. Allegro is writing this book as a purposeful troll. He was writing this as a purposeful troll to get back at some of his colleagues who had mistreated him and he believed were too firmly entrenched in this liberal Christian tradition because he lays little Easter eggs throughout the book. Where liberal Christian theologians would say, during this period, would say something like, well, you know, maybe Jesus didn’t do this or didn’t do that or wasn’t the Son of God this or wasn’t, you know, didn’t rise from the dead that.

But there are good moral lessons in the Bible that we should. That we should grab onto. And throughout this book, the sacred mushroom and the Cross, Allegro makes a very similar argument that, you know, the historical Jesus, no wasn’t God. There was actually no historical Jesus. He’s this mushroom allegory that for the muscaria mushroom. And so we can take good moral lessons from the Bible, but, you know, it’s ultimately misunderstood mythology. But the last chapter of his book is super interesting. He has this, this section where he kind of asks, why would it bother you if Jesus was a mushroom, if all that matters is the moral teaching? Or are you being a hypocrite and secretly do care about what happened in the past and the idea that it would be something you think blasphemous upsets you? So I think this was something that his argumentation, I think throughout his bunk, I think he was way smarter than comes off in the book.

Even he knew what he was doing. And he pulled off what I think is an elaborate hoax to poke fun at all of the people who looked down on him. Sparked another path in his career. But yeah, that’s. That’s sort of my, that’s sort of my take on it. And, and you have to really look between the lines to see what he’s getting at. I’ve never heard this take on Allegro before. This might be way niche, but there’s also something similar in the world of Freemasonry. There was a guy, Leo Taxel, that wrote something called the Secrets of Masonry, which was this expose in the late 1890s, but he was essentially a critic of Freemasons and of the Vatican.

He was basically an atheist. He wrote a political satire. He was kind of Edge Lord. He was like a Twitter Edge Lord, spreading memes and getting like 20 million clicks on everything. But he also intentionally was like, I’m gonna pit these two groups against each other that already have some sort of public distrust and inherent distrust within their own ranks. So he does this and eventually comes out and admits like, haha, got gotcha. It was, it was all me. I made this all up just to get you guys mad at each other. But still, a hundred years later, his original satirical hoax work that he came out and said, haha, I did this all to just like get you guys mad.

People still cite it now as fact and, and build upon it as if it were this reference book that you can like expand on as opposed to like a funny inside joke that he was trolling the entire world with. So that being applied to Allegro, it hurts me a little bit. But I also, I relate that it does seem maybe simplistic compared to what Allegra was capable of doing with his research. And this was like the time Life magazine magic mushroom version of. Wait, so do you think that it was all disingenuous? Do you think there’s any part of Allegro that thought the Jesus really could have been a mushroom or was the entire thing just to rile people up, you know, I don’t, I don’t know.

That’s a good question. He had, he had a history. He had a history of telling tall tales out of scant evidence during a lot of his Dead Sea Scrolls research. But one of the things that, one of the things that’s in the background of Allegro’s life that people don’t often realize is that he was originally a Methodist minister. And as he was going through seminary, he learned that like, you know, the Gospels aren’t historical documents. There’s a lot of it that’s mythology, you know, that Moses didn’t write the Torah. A lot of those things didn’t happen.

And he was really, from a young, from a young age, in his 20s, he was really. Yeah, what’s the word I’m looking for? Disenchanted with the way that he felt like he had been lied to. He felt like he was being sold this one myth. But behind the scenes, everybody knew the truth, that these weren’t really historical stories. And so I think he finally, he got fired before he wrote this book. He was getting fired, he was losing friends. He was just sort of on an anti Christian campaign in a lot of ways because he had been hurt.

And I really think maybe there was some part of him that thought this serious, some parts of this serious, but I really think he was trying to make people within the church feel, that have made him feel this way, make them feel this way. And that’s sort of more what he was getting at by writing this big trolling book. It’s interesting to hear this because I guess my experience with it would have been the opposite. It was almost like, oh, wow, maybe there is something more to all this Christian lore. Maybe like he is a mushroom.

Okay, now I’m interested again. Now I’ve got a little bit more respect again, again, because I, I went from atheist, agnostic, deist. I don’t know where I’m at anymore. I’m just a skeptical, weird, like neo gnostic goober in some ways, I guess. Okay, so yeah, Allegro is a troll. I’ll have to integrate that into my, my understanding of him now too, because I guess outside of his C scroll and just really being into the idea that he came up with, what about Santa? Is Santa the same thing? Is Santa a troll? Do you think Santa could have been a mushroom? I have, I have absolutely no idea.

I haven’t looked enough, enough into this topic. I haven’t looked enough into this topic. I think it’s I think it’s perfectly plausible. I’ve just. I. I don’t think we have enough. I. I haven’t seen enough data to really know one way or another. Okay. It’s a fair. It’s a highly contested. It’s fairly controversial when it comes up. And I guess to. To tack on to that too. In one of Wasson’s books, I think it was rotoper Stephanie. He mentions that there’s all these ancient medieval depictions of these, like, supernatural beings. Like guys with a big foot, like a big parasol, I think they call it.

He had like a foot that would block the sun out. And there was a guy with, like, his body, his face was in his body. Kind of like one of those real monsters characters. Right. There’s all these different iterations. And his interpretation also was that they were all mushrooms. These were all just like alchemical proxies to talk about psychedelic mushrooms, which might have still been taboo. He even goes to. To make pretty big claims that stoma was mascaria mushroom and that even Buddha and the entire basis of Buddhism might have also been all around the use of psychedelic mushrooms.

But that, like him, he related that, I guess in certain Buddhist cultures, I think they still ate mushrooms, but certain types of mushrooms were like, taboo, off limits. You don’t talk about. You don’t write about it, you definitely don’t eat it or anything because Buddha ends up dying from being served the poisonous mushroom. That’s how he got taken out. But he. He was constantly pointing at all of these religious, like, sort of cults that what they started out as might have all just kind of been like drug dens that kind of exploded in popularity over time, but because of the taboo nature that sort of gets covered up.

So I don’t. It was. I don’t know if he was also CIA plant. And he’s not trolling, but he’s like planting the same thing that Allegro does. Did. Because also there was a lot of CIA involvement in interpreting Dead Sea Scrolls and stuff. It’s kind of crazy. It’s crazy all the overlap here. Yeah, I really. One of. One of my favorite sources on Buddhism and. Buddhism and magic mushrooms. Did you say? See a little while back where one of the people from Biden’s cabinet that went to visit China accidentally ate magic mushrooms. No, no. But they had been cooked and psilocybin.

Psilocybin breaks down at like 110 degrees, very low temperature. So it was this. It was this big news story that they had. They didn’t say it was magic Mushrooms in, like, the story they just gave, like, it’s, it’s a psilocybin genus mushroom. I looked at that, I was like, now these are much magic mushrooms. So it was used in a culinary way for some Buddhists. There’s a couple of older medicinal books on medicinal Chinese medicine with Buddhists who refer to magic mushrooms as the laughing mushroom, where if you take it, you see demons, you laugh a ton.

They say it’s a little bit uncomfortable, but they don’t have it be a spiritual thing one way or the other. So I think there’s a big wide world of substance use and the possibilities for that in religion. You know, Buddhism, one of the precepts of Buddhism is that you shouldn’t take drugs, and yet sometimes you do. In Islam, it’s the same thing. You can’t get intoxicated. But Muslims chew cot, which is a amphetamine out of Africa or opium was smoked, hash being smoked. So, yeah, there’s, there’s all sorts. There’s a whole different range of ways that religions have used drugs over time.

That’s usually a little more open than people realize. All right, I’m going to start wrapping this up because I know that we can go on for hours and hours on this. So last question before we get into another little segment here. And I just want, I guess, your opinion or any research or thoughts that you’ve gone over on a claim that I hear often enough that I’m asking the question about it, but that these entities that you encounter on a psychedelic trip or one of these experience, there’s a lot of concern that people are literally conversing with demons, that they are now interacting with some sort of nefarious pagan or just like a demonic entity, maybe even in the classical Greek sense of like a daemon versus a demon, but that either way, interacting with them can, like, cause all sorts of, like, problems for you in your waking life.

Have you been over any of these different sort of ideas? And where, where are you at now? Like, are. If I do DMT today and I talk to an entity that I just talk to Satan. That’s a good question. And it’s one that being that I’m a Baptist preacher living in this world, I get all the time, I get messages about it all the time. And one of the big principles that we find from the Gospel of Matthew is that good trees give good fruit. You can tell whether something is good or bad based on what the effects that it causes.

Might break that mold a little bit, though. Well, right, right. I think it might, it might break that. Well, it might break that mold a little bit. But if we’re talking about, like, if we’re talking about. Again, this is part of why I pull back to the traditional medicinal use in Mazatec culture. When, when you’re using something in a responsible manner, a healthy manner, in a way that for most psychedelics where you’re talking about like machine elves or entities or whatever, like high dose LSD or psilocybin, DMT in general, the idea is that you can test these spirits, you can test what you’re interacting with, what sort of rituals you’re engaging with based on the effects that they have.

And I mean medicinally. We don’t have a lot of information on salvia, but for psychedelics as a whole, incredible medicinal application. Incredible. Anti suicide, antidepressant, anti anxiety, treating ptsd. So for me, I have a lot of trouble. You know, Jesus says that you can’t, that you can’t tear down your own house. Someone won’t tear down your own, their own house. And I think that in general, I think God’s in the, in the business of healing. And that’s not really something demons do. And so if you’re encountering these beings on substances that are known for their healing properties, I don’t really think it can be a demon because you can’t be heal.

You can’t be healed by something that’s evil. That’s my opinion on it. Very controversial opinion. No matter what your response was, it would have been a controversial opinion to somebody, right? Yeah. Okay, I’ve got a find a little segment which I’ll get a litmus test from you on a whole bunch of other things kind of similar to that last question. Let me just play the clip first and then I’ll explain how it works. Okay. Hey, conspiracy buffs. I double dare you to take some pcp. The paranormal conspiracy probe. On your marks, get set and go. Okay, really simple.

I’m just gonna mention, I’m gonna say a phrase and I just want you to give me a score from 1 to 10. How much you agree with that phrase, how much you believe in it. So for example, the one that I always start out with is Bigfoot. How much do you believe in Bigfoot on a scale from 1 to 10? Solid 5. Okay, fair, fair point. So you can be swayed either way. You’re on the fence. I can see swayed either way. How about the concept of flat Earth? That we are living on some sort of a flat plane and not a sphere or a globe.

I have to be a one for me. Okay, how about the. And listen closely because there’s qualifiers in here, okay, That a human being has stepped foot on the moon sometime in the last 100 years. How, how true would you say that is? On a scale from 1 to 10? I probably say an 8. Okay, now let’s be more specific and say that NASA put somebody on the moon during the Apollo 11 mission. How much would you agree with that statement? I think a lot of the data comes from the same time period, so still would probably be an eight.

Okay. And then what about the possibility that the military hired Stanley Kubrick to make a B roll backup of the moon landing just as a safety precaution. Safety net. You know, I, I think that’s. I think that’s pretty. I think that’s pretty likely. I’ll. I’ll give it. I’ll give it a seven or an eight as well. We. Look, military government loves its backups, just in case. Okay, fair point. You gave Bigfoot A5. I’m curious. I’ll just ask you a couple of other cryptids just to see if they’re all fives or if, like, some are higher or lower.

So how about, like, little green men or little gray men? Like little aliens from outer space? Probably about the same. About a five. Okay. Chupacabra. Familiar with the Chupacabra? Yeah, out of, out of southwest, in Mexico, right? Yeah, the goat sucker. Yeah, most. I. Maybe, yeah. I still got to put it around a five. I’m open minded here. Okay, how about orbs? They’re not as big now, but I remember in the, like, late 90s, early 2000s, you took some late night photography with your crappy disposable Kodak camera, and you print it out and there’s all these orbs floating around in the sky.

I think a majority of people that I knew, for whatever reason, the company that I kept, everyone was convinced that those were like little spirits or little fairies or little, like, physical representations of consciousness floating around in the world. Where are you at 0 to 10 on orbs? I mean, I’ve. I’ve seen ball lightning myself. So whether. So that’s got to be a 10. That orbs exist, but whether or not that’s a spirit or something, I don’t. I have no, I have maybe a three or, or a two. Somewhere in there. You’ve got to be in one of the smallest clubs on the planet of people that have seen ball lightning.

That is phenomenal. Yeah, I saw it. I worked at a summer camp By a swamp. So I spent a lot of time out in the area where you can see that sort of thing. The swamp gas? Yeah, yeah, the swamp gas sort of thing. Hot summer. Yeah. How about ghosts? And I guess to be more specific at first, like Victorian style ghost, haunted house. Floating around wearing you know, a veil of some kind. But you know, opening and closing stuff, maybe that’s more poltergeist. Let’s start with the Victorian ghost first. Zero to ten Victorian style ghosts.

I lean more towards like seven. Okay, how about poltergeist? Like you know, like the poltergeist style. Flipping open paranormal activity, you know, how much do you think that that exists? I’ve ex, I’ve also experienced stuff like that before when I was younger. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna probably give that a nine with a, with a, with a little bit there for a chance. I’m just deeply mentally ill. Okay, how about demons? And I mean demons as in like being able to manifest their will or, or do things in our physical realm. Not just like you have a dream or you got voices that tell you to do bad things, but that like they are actually doing things.

Yeah, that’s a. You’re asking a theology question here, so I know I’m. You’re biased. I get it. I’m gonna say I’m gonna give a nine, I’m gonna give a nine there. I also think it’s possible they’re, they’re metaphors for like general evil or stuff like that, but I’m pretty convinced on it. How about Solomon building his temple with his seal of Solomon and conjuring up demons out of the Red Sea to bring pillars in order to create. How much of that do you think is literal? I’m going to, I’m personally, I’m going to have to go with like a one or a two just because I don’t think, I think a lot of the stories of David and Solomon are mythology actually.

I don’t think they really happened. Okay, interesting. How about let’s, let’s get away from the 1 to 10th because I have a couple other open ended that we can wrap this up and sometimes it’s hard to like just put a number on a, on a deep topic like that. So Solomon mythology. But I was almost deriving from what you were saying before of, of allegro kind of being a troll and like haha, I took your Jesus away, now he’s a mushroom. Like and don’t you feel like an idiot now? But does this imply that you do believe that There was a historical Jesus.

He really did cause miracles, died for our sins, resurrected. All of like. Is all that literal, verbatim? Yeah, I’ll take that literal. I’ll take that literal, verbatim. But I also think that, you know, I joke that I’m an atheist. I’m a part time atheist. So sometimes, sometimes I think that. I think the story of the historical Jesus as it’s told in most Christianity is plausible. It’s historically plausible. That doesn’t mean that we can prove it. So while I’ve had very deep experiences of what I believe to be the risen Christ, I also recognize that it can just be my own brain.

And I can recognize that maybe historical data could change. So I keep myself open on that and where my faith lies. Okay. And I’ll save the most controversial question for the end. I guess my favorite question to ask any theologian of any kind. What did Ham see in that tent? Isn’t his naked dad. Is that it? And now he doesn’t get a ticket on the boat just because he sees his dad naked. And that’s it. Yeah. Now, now when I was growing up, I mean, we’re talking about ancient mythology that is, has a lot of different cultural norms than we’re used to, where slavery, totally fine.

Seeing your dad naked, terrible evil. So it’s gonna be, it’s going to be. When you’re reading those older, older stories in the Torah, it’s going to be some weird stuff in there that’s just going to make no sense to us. But yeah, that’s, that’s actually what I think the story is trying to convey. And, and no euphemism there. Like nothing happened in the tent. He just like, oh God, the dad, I didn’t see you in there. I’m drunk, you’re drunk. And then he leaves. And then the next morning his dad’s like, unforgivable. You will never be, in fact your entire family forever.

Unforgiven. Well, it’s, it’s, yeah, it’s a. Well, when you, you have Ham’s brother backing up backwards with the, the blanket to cover the father’s nakedness, I think part of it, I think part of it there is like, like mockery or just not the idea of not respecting the patriarch in your family that was the root of everybody’s wealth, that was the root of everybody’s power, was the patriarch of your clan. And so to see the patriarch of your clan in an embarrassed state like that and to just let it happen was deeply disrespectful. So that’s, that’s.

I know, I know it’s a boring, A boring take on that. But that’s, that’s my opinion on it. There could be more there in the underlying Hebrew, but I’ve seen those papers, but I, I don’t see it personally. Right. I like that. That’s a. It is a very rational take. I wouldn’t say boring. I think it actually makes more sense in context. I’ve heard some pretty extreme takes on that when there was like active participation in acts we won’t speak of. I’ve also heard an interesting interpretation where he walked into the tent and saw Noah conversing directly with God or perhaps performing some sort of magic.

And that the word naked, or it wasn’t even naked. I forgot what the original word was that gets converted into naked when people talk about it. But that this nakedness was really witnessing this like raw communion with God that shouldn’t be observed by an outside observer. Almost like the, like a two slit experiment, like just by himself observing it ruined this communication that he had. And that was part of it. That one obviously involves a way more complex explanation. It wouldn’t fit in Occam’s razor, but I don’t like Occam anyways, so I’m okay with it. Cool.

All right, Caleb, man, thank you so much. Like I said, we could go on for hours and hours more. We’ll wrap it up here. Thanks for talking salvia and Jesus and mushrooms. And I’d love to have you back on and get even deeper into some of these topics. That sounds good to me, boss. Thank you. Let people know one more time where they can find you if you got any books to sell. If you’re selling magic mushrooms on the dark web, give us the bitcoin address, all that stuff. Yeah, no magic mushrooms. But you can find me at psychedelictheology.com or psychedelictheology on Instagram, Facebook, the normal social media.

And you can find my psychedelic theology podcast where I talk some about salvia and some about the Virgin Mary, Mazatec, those sorts of things. You can find that on Spotify, Apple podcasts, and Podbean as the psychedelic theology podcast. Awesome. And for anyone that’s listening and like this, I absolutely am gonna have to go deeper specifically into the psychedelics being used to integrate people into the military. Wow, what a topic. Absolutely. Gonna be doing that soon. So if you’re interested, I’ll have you back on for that one too. Sounds good to me. Yeah, I scribbled my life away Driven the right to page Will it enlight your brain, give you the flight my plane taper the highs ablaze somewhat of an amazing feel when it’s real to real you will engage it your favorite of course the lord of an arrangement I gave you the proper results to hit the pavement if they get emotional hate maybe your language again how they playing it well without Lakers evade them whatever the cost they are to shapeshift snakes get decapitated met is the apex execution of flame you out nuclear bomb distributed at war rather gruesome for eyes to see max them out that I like my trees blow it off in the face you despising me for what though calculated and rather cutthroat paranoid American must be all the blood smoke for real Lord give me your day your way vacate they wait around to hate whatever they say man it’s not in the least bit we get heavy rotate when a beat hits so thank us you’re welcome for real, you’re welcome they ain’t never had a deal you’re welcome man they lacking a pill you’re welcome yet they doing it still you’re welcome.
[tr:tra].


  • Paranoid American

    Paranoid American is the ingenious mind behind the Gematria Calculator on TruthMafia.com. He is revered as one of the most trusted capos, possessing extensive knowledge in ancient religions, particularly the Phoenicians, as well as a profound understanding of occult magic. His prowess as a graphic designer is unparalleled, showcasing breathtaking creations through the power of AI. A warrior of truth, he has founded paranoidAmerican.com and OccultDecode.com, establishing himself as a true force to be reckoned with.

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