What is Paganism? w/ @stijnfawkes of Greyhorn Pagans Podcast | Paranoid American Podcast 98

➡ Paranoid American, a unique comic publisher, has been exploring the world’s mysteries through their podcast since 2012. They delve into topics like secret societies, forbidden technology, and occult symbols in pop culture. In one episode, they interview Stein Fox from the Greyhorn Pagans podcast, discussing topics like paganism, witchcraft, and hidden history. Stein Fox explains that paganism is not a religion, but a way of life, and shares his personal practice as a Germanic pagan.
➡ The speaker discusses their journey through different religions, ultimately finding a home in paganism. They express skepticism about traditional Christian teachings and dinosaurs, but believe in the existence of giant beings. They started their own pagan tribe, the Gray, with their wife after feeling dissatisfied with other groups. They also share a profound experience with a Dutch tribe where they discovered their spirit animal, the crow, through a guided meditation.
➡ The text discusses the portrayal of Norse gods Thor and Loki in popular culture, comparing them to their traditional depictions in Norse mythology. The speaker also discusses the differences between Loki and the Christian concept of Satan, emphasizing that Loki is not evil but self-centered. The conversation then shifts to the potential dangers of venerating Loki, the concept of punishment in Germanic paganism, and the importance of honor in this belief system. Lastly, the speaker expresses his preference for his own regional gods and the influence of geography on religious beliefs.
➡ The text discusses various theories and beliefs about spirituality, mythology, and conspiracy theories. It mentions how different regions have their own versions of mythical creatures like Bigfoot, and how these creatures adapt to their local environments. The conversation also delves into the concept of Tartaria, a theory that suggests advanced ancient civilizations with unique technologies and structures. Lastly, it explores the idea of giants being petrified into mountains and the existence of free energy in the past.
➡ The text discusses theories about Tartaria, a supposed ancient civilization with advanced technology. It suggests that they harnessed free energy from the atmosphere, similar to Nikola Tesla’s ideas, and that cities were designed like circuit boards to distribute this energy. The text also explores the idea that churches were not just religious centers, but healing places using sound vibrations. Lastly, it touches on the theory that Christianity may have stolen and hidden this technology, and debates whether belief in a flat Earth is necessary to be a Tartarian.
➡ The text discusses various conspiracy theories and ideas, such as the existence of an ice wall separating known and unknown lands, the possibility of a ‘reset’ in human history, and the role of higher beings in these events. It also explores the idea of ancient structures like pyramids and cathedrals being left behind from previous civilizations. The speaker expresses skepticism towards common conspiracy theories, preferring to explore the mystical aspects of the occult. They also criticize the tendency to label everything as ‘satanic’, calling for a more nuanced understanding of the unknown.
➡ The speaker discusses their skepticism towards Scientology, describing it as a rich and elaborate cult. They express their belief that it uses elements from various spiritual and religious practices to create wealth. The speaker also mentions their interest in different historical narratives, including the Box Saga, a Finnish oral tradition. They believe that while some parts of the Box Saga may hold truth, others are questionable. The speaker also shares their dream of using potential wealth to create a community on purchased land.
➡ The text discusses the Box Saga, a controversial theory that suggests humans originated from a goat and a monkey. The theory also includes advanced Nordic people, their knowledge, technology, and morality, which supposedly got diluted and corrupted over time, leading to modern societal issues. The text also explores the Box Alphabet, which is believed to represent astrological processions of planets and other complex concepts. Despite the skepticism, there are communities who firmly believe in this theory.
➡ The speaker discusses their belief in the power of personal influence, comparing it to magic. They believe that while one person can’t change the entire world, they can make a difference in their immediate circles, which can ripple outwards. They also discuss their views on therapy and artificial intelligence (AI), seeing both as tools that can be beneficial or harmful depending on how they’re used. They believe AI has a form of self-awareness, but don’t see it as supernatural. They express concern about large corporations controlling AI development and the need for collective regulation.
➡ The Greyhorn Pagans podcast explores unusual topics like alchemy and flat earth, with an objective approach. The host, Steinfox, appreciates the intellectual challenge and invites listeners to support their treasure hunt via Patreon or cash donations. The podcast is available on YouTube and other major platforms, with additional content on their website, www.greyhornpagans.com. The text also includes a poetic expression, possibly lyrics, reflecting on life, struggle, and defiance.

Good evening, listeners, brave navigators of the enigmatic and the concealed. Have you ever felt the pull of the unanswered, the allure of the mysteries that shroud our existence? For more than a decade, a unique comic publisher has dared to dive into these mysteries. Unafraid of the secrets they might uncover, this audacious entity is Paranoid American. Welcome to the mystifying universe of the Paranoid American podcast. Launched in the year 2012, Paranoid American has been on a mission to decipher the encrypted secrets of our world. From the unnerving enigma of MK Ultra mind control, to the clandestine assemblies of secret societies, from the awe inspiring frontiers of forbidden technology, to the arcane patterns of occult symbols in our very own pop culture, they have committed to unveiling the concealed realities that lie just beneath the surface.

Join us as we navigate these intricate landscapes, decoding the hidden scripts of our society and challenging the accepted perceptions of reality. Folks, I’ve got a big problem on my hands. There’s a company called Paranoid American making all all these funny memes and comics. Now, I’m a fair guy. I believe in free speech as long as it doesn’t cross the line. And if these AI generated memes dare to make fun of me, they’re crossing the line. This is your expedition into the realm of the extraordinary, the secret, the shrouded. Come with us as we sift through the world’s grand mysteries, question the standardized narratives, and brave the cryptic labyrinth of the concealed truth.

So strap yourselves in, broaden your horizons, and steel yourselves for a voyage into the enigmatic heart of the Paranoid American podcast. Where each story, every image, every revelation brings us one step closer to the elusive truth. Hey, another episode. Paranoid American podcast. Today I’ve got Stein Fox from the Greyhorn Pagans podcast. I’ll get into in a second where I know I’m from and like some cool topics that we share of interest. But let me just let you do your plugs up front and tell people where they can find you before we get deep into any tangents.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, first of all, thanks for having me. Yeah. Steinfox Crown Pagans Podcast, still a smaller independent podcaster. You can find us on YouTube. That’s where most of the, that’s the, the main platform for like the video podcasting spreaker, all the bigger podcasting platforms, all of them just more easily found through our website, www.greyhornpagans.com. we do everything. Paganism, witchcraft, mysticism, hidden history, just, you know, weird out there, conspiracies especially pertaining to hidden history like Tartaria, for example, or the difference. That’s. That’s one of my. One of my favorite rabbit holes and one that I always get lost in.

And then you know, of course the topic that. Well, that I first got to. To know you with the. The box saga. Yeah. Don’t blow your whole load too quick. We gotta essence for the interview. Get there. Yeah, no, of course, of course. Yeah, no. So yeah, you know, a whole lot of. Whole lot of that. I have had many, many interesting people on. A lot of people that you know, that we have in common. I’ve had one on, of course, to talk about Homunculus. That’s such a. Like speaking of weird rabbit holes. That’s. That’s a good one.

Nick from the Occult Rejects. Just like so many other interesting people and awesome stories and weird stories and stories that I never even knew, never even thought about. So, yeah, Greyhard Pagans podcast. Just find it or you know, look me up at Steinfox, just anywhere on the Internet. I left quite the digital footprint already and we’ll get all the links and everything in the normal spot, so anyone wants to find it. But yeah, just search for Greyhorn Pagans podcast. And let me just start with what the hell is a greyhorn? And what the hell is a pagan? And what the hell is a greyhorn pagan? Oh man, that’s.

That’s a whole history. It’s a lot of words or less. Sorry, Three words or less every answer. Oh Christ. That’s three words right there. Oh Christ. No, really, what’s. Let’s start with what do you consider a pagan? Because I say pagan in some circles and, and I’ll hear like pagan doesn’t actually mean anything. It just means that they weren’t like a Christian at a certain point in time. Like. But pagan is like a very loaded term. So what do you. What do you mean? What is that like a. Like a representation of. I guess in the most like the broadest that I can take it is polytheist.

So, you know, you could say that even like the African tribes who, you know, still have their weird as gods, that they’re pagans. They’re just African pagans. But for me, pagan is. It’s not necessarily a. Like, it’s not a religion. I’ve. I’ve had that question often. Like, you know what? Like, is it a religion? Like, do you have a holy book? No, we don’t. So yeah, polytheist. And it’s a. It’s a way of, of living A more traditional way of living, I’d say. Oh, that’s, that’s a very important, I think, like, specification you got there. Like the definition that it’s not a religion.

Pagan isn’t a religion. I guess in. In my mind, if someone’s like, yes, I’m pagan, I. I don’t think that their religion is pagan, but I do think that they have a religion and that that religion could be considered pagan. Am I off base on like, could you be a pagan and just have no religion at all? Well, religion. I mean, most times when we talk about religion, we talk about a organized form of religion. You know, think, you know, Christianity. I think it can be organized of one. I think one person, I guess. Yeah, let’s like, we have to keep defining words until there’s a common ground.

No, absolutely. I gu the case that you heard it from somewhere or you made it up yourself in the case of like a box saga kite thing. But over time you come up with, I guess maybe dogma is too loaded of a word, but you come up with like a set of rules. Here’s how I worship my gods. Here’s how I define morality. And once you have just a rough. Even if you’re just like a rough idea in your mind and you’re like, I’m gonna live my life according to this because I believe in some afterlife or supernatural aspect, I guess I would consider that as, as checking all the boxes of religion.

Doesn’t have to be a church. Doesn’t have to be like a whole bunch of people. I guess in that way, paganism definitely has religious influences. It can definitely be classified as a, as a religion. We, we like to say that, you know, it’s not. Oh, it’s not a religion, but there definitely are religious practices. You know, worships, certain offerings on, you know, certain dates, mostly like on the solstices, is very important. We now have imbolc coming up, of course. Or that is tonight actually. So, yeah, we have. We definitely have like kind. Certain standard practices, if you will, but they’re not, They’re.

They’re free to. To each to interpret. You know, like, I’m a. I’m a Germanic pagan myself. I believe in the north Germanic gods. I don’t know anyone who practices it the same way that I do. You mentioned another good example that technically a West African tribe that’s polytheistic could be considered pagan under, like that umbrella term. I was gonna ask what flavor pagan are you? And you kind of mentioned like Germanic pagan. Is there a. Is there a name for that. Like is it. Is it more specific? Or if I just went and I was like, hey, looking for Germanic pagan bandmates, would I find more Stein Fox out there? No, luckily there’s only one of me.

Even though I. I have a son, so I hardly know. Yeah, there’s. There’s like one and a half of me then I guess. I think you’d find the best results under Assetru. That’s. Come again? Assatrue A S a T R U as a true. Yeah, that’s the. It’s kind of the more organized form of. Of Germanic paganism, but it’s, it’s how organized. Is there a brick and mortar you can go to in the physical world that represents it? Some groups definitely have. You know, when I first discovered the path, I. I joined the Asatro community. They definitely are a.

A registered community, you know, have the whole paperwork done and, and everything officially recognized. And I do believe they have like a brick or mortar location. So yeah, that, that definitely is. Is an option, but it’s more just separate groups within Asatru, not Asatru as a whole. Like there’s not one Asatru church that you can. Can go to. It’s not, it’s not how. How that works. Not how our religion works. Owen, how do you feel about potentially risking the damnation of your eternal soul by just picking the wrong pagan religion here? Like why not. Why not just go to the true one in God, Jesus Christ, just accepting dear heart and save yourself from, you know, hellfire forever? Like where.

Where were you at on Pascal’s wager? You were just like. And not worth it. Well, I tried to do the whole, whole Christian thing, of course, because it is so, just so easily accessible and there is a lot of information about and you know, it’s just easy to do. But I. It never felt right for me. It never felt like the. The right religion. It never felt like the right God. Especially being Dutch, you know, being Northern European. We still have a lot of the stories of our gods and our ancestors and yeah, it’s. I. I guess it’s funny, you know, I do acknowledge the teachings of Christ.

I do acknowledge that the whole mystery school aspect of it is valuable. There is definitely value, value to be had in his teachings. It’s just not for me. I don’t feel. I don’t feel at home with it. So your home is eternal. Damn fire. Got check. Got it. I mean, if that is the case, then, you know, that’s the case. And I’ll. I’ll Deal with it then and there. I guess if I was wrong, I was wrong and I’ll admit it. Oh, yeah. Those dinosaurs were so convincing. Well, actually, I don’t. Yeah, let me. Let me just jump there.

Do you believe in dinosaurs? Where does that. Where are you at on that? Oh, I know there’s no. There’s like, no real segue to that. I just. I gotta get it out. I do question it. I do question it because of all the skeletons that we have. They’re all put together from multiple skeletons, and a lot of it is just made a lot of plaster. Like, the pieces that we don’t have, we just make. So I believe there were these gigantic beings that walked the earth at some time. Were they dinosaurs? I mean, that’s. That’s how we know them.

Did they look like, you know, we think they looked. No, definitely not like giant lizards. I don’t know. Seems. Doesn’t seem likely to me. I believe in giant beings, just not necessarily giant lizards. We’re going to circle all the way back around there much, much later. But. Okay, so I got your definition of pagan. Now, what the hell is a greyhorn? Is this specific to your particular flavor of paganism? It is my flavor of paganism. The Gray, or pagans, is a tribe that I started myself together with my wife after being in a lot of communities, having joined and enjoyed a lot of different heathen, Viking, pagan groups.

I felt like I had learned all I could learn from others. And whenever I joined a new community, for some reason it all went to. It all went to shit. And I don’t know if it’s just. If it’s me or, you know, just circumstances. Your relationship with it went to shit or the entire group as a whole went to shit? Both. Both. Maybe you’re the common denominator here. That seems so. Guess I have some. Some shadow work to do. No, so I just. I got sick and tired of. Of that happening. And I was like, you know, I have enough experience.

I. You know, I’m just gonna. I’m gonna do this myself. I’m gonna, you know, like, start my own group, start my own tribe for, you know, seekers, for people who. Who want to learn more, who want to, you know, or even those people who have been walking the path for years. Years. Like, everybody is welcome. We’re very open, very diverse, and for a lot of people, they. Even though we are still mostly online, they found a second home within the tribe, made a lot of friends within the tribe. So it is like truly my own personal flavor of Germanic paganism purely because it’s the tribe that my wife and I started.

For all the other pagan groups that you kind of went through and just like left burning on your way out, right? All these different ones that exploded. But were. Are any of these classified as, say, like, secret societies? Do you. Do you learn information that you take an oath? Okay, so if you don’t, you’re shaking your head no. So let me ask you, like, what is the most profound information that you were able to derive from some of these groups? Like, do you have like a, like a top one or a top three of like. Wow, I never would have learned this, or at least not as quickly if I hadn’t joined a group versus just buying books on Amazon and reading archive.org oh, there it’s.

It’s been. It’s been 10, 13 years since I, I found the past. I have seen, heard, and done a lot. I think the, the most beautiful thing were the, the days that I spent with another Dutch tribe, Tribe of the Fox, they organize a lot of. A lot of ceremonies. They’ll do entire days dedicated to one. One topic. The, the most awesome that I was at recently was about Odin, Wotan and the, The Berserkers. And they did a whole ancestral ritual, a guided meditation in which you. You were guided to find your own spirit animal. So.

And yeah, I don’t think I would have. Would have gone to, to that event if it wasn’t for just, you know, I wanted to find different groups and joining different, different groups. Did you find your spirit animal? Yeah, yeah, I. It’s. Yeah, the. Well, the wolf is my, my wife’s spirit animal. But one animal that I have long felt close to is the crow, actually. And that’s it. That really all started with the, the film, the Crow. The original one. The original one, like the 1996 one, not the, the newest one that really got me interested in the more alternative gothic metal side of life.

And I think if it wasn’t for my interest in gothic and metal and such, that I also wouldn’t have found paganism. So the crow is really the animal that did the most for me, that truly put me on the path that I am on now. Do. When you think back to that guided meditation at this, like, really profound experience you’re talking about Berserkers and Odin. Do you remember what the steps were to find your animal? Like, like, I’m assuming it wasn’t just like, look into this pocket watch, okay? Think of an animal. It was, it was no stage, it was no Stage magic.

This was actual magic. No, it was a guided meditation with drums and chanting. You were told to close your eyes. It helps you focus. If there are no other visuals, then you were told to visualize a dark, dark wood and a open. Like a clearing in the middle of the woods. In the middle of that. That clearing, a large fire with a kettle hanging above it from the woods coming a white witch who poured water on the fire, creating a huge steam cloud. And in that steam cloud would manifest your spirit animal. And you were told to all visualize that.

Like, don’t think about it, you know, and don’t. Because that’s the trick with some of these. You know, like, go look for this. You know, you’re. Sometimes you’re expecting to find something, and if you’re expecting to find something, yeah, you’ll find that because you’re expecting to find it. So, yeah, you are manifesting it, but it’s not a. It’s like a predetermined manifestation. It would be really hard to go into that completely blind, like, if, you know, you’re picking. Because now you’re thinking, like, oh, wouldn’t it be cool if it was a xyz? And now all those options are sort of like becoming part of the.

The possible. Yeah, but spontaneously show up. That’s. Yeah, no, that is. That is very true. You know, especially, you know, there are certain animals that are, like, very important to. Just to us here in Europe already, especially for the. The Norse Germanic pagans, You know, the wolf, the crow, the owl. So you’re, like, at the very beginning, you’re kind of expecting to see those because, you know, those are the most important animals. But it’s then during meditation, it is important to. To pull back and kind of, you know, feel within yourself, think within yourself, like, is this really what I’m seeing or is this what I am expecting to see? And how does all of this manifest in your daily life currently? Do you have, like.

Do you do anything specific with. With, like, crow feathers? Or do you have, like, a magical ritual when you wake up in the morning, are like, do you sacrifice animals on, like, the equinox? No. No, that is unfortunately, highly frowned upon. It is really not that easy, really. But animal sacrifice, the law doesn’t like it when you do that. Let’s just. Which law are we talking about here? Dutch law. Okay. All right. I mean, just religious law is something else entirely. Like, they don’t care as long as it’s, you know, like, for a. For a ritual and not just senseless killing.

There definitely are still pagan groups, pagan tribes who, who do those animal sacrifices. Now for, for me, the spirit animal I don’t work as much with other than that I have a crow tattooed on my right arm and a wolf on my left arm. But my daily ritual is more guided towards the God Thor, the, the God of thunder, the strongest of all the gods. The guy from the Avengers. Yeah, I know all about him. Well, I, I, I did like to, to knock Marvel for that. Like, oh, that’s not how Thor looks and, oh, that’s ridiculous.

But then like keeping in the back of my mind that I, that like my awakening to this pagan path was history, Vikings, you know, History channel Vikings, which is very Hollywood and very like, still a lot of inaccuracies. But like, that was my like, holy shit. Like, what is this? I want to know, I want to know more. This feels so cool and this feels so right. So if for somebody else, Marvel’s Thor or Odin or whoever is, you know, the catalyst for their awakening, I can’t knock it. Although I do not like his representation in the Marvel movies.

He, he’s a bit of a pussy. What about Loki? Oh, Loki’s a bastard. Loki’s a bastard. You know, I think out of all the Marvel movies, Loki is portrayed the best. Loki doesn’t care. It’s all about him. And if it’s not about him, he’ll make it about him. So I mean, this is one of the most obvious comparisons ever, but usually I’ll hear Thor and Loki almost as like God and Satan or Jesus and the devil or something and that. So, yeah, so tell me, like, how, what are like the main differences if that comparison were to come up? How, like we’ll start with Loki and Satan.

How, how is Loki and Satan not the same archetype? Because first of all, there is no such thing as Satan in, in European paganism. Well, I guess, I guess if we, if we were to agree on what the archetype represents, like some sort of troublemaker, ruler of the material domain, eternal liar, all of those things, then I, I, I definitely have to agree that much of what we now recognize as Satan can also be found in, in Loki. But Loki doesn’t do it, doesn’t do all those things. He doesn’t, you know, lie, cheat, steal, and not in the, not in the awesome Eddie Guerrero kind of way, but because he is, he’s evil.

He’s just selfish, he’s self centered. You know, he’ll, he’ll lie and cheat and steal and do all those things because he thinks it’s funny or because it’s, it benefits him, you know, it’s not. I guess that’s the best way I can describe it. It’s not evil. It’s just self centered. So are there any pagan groups that you know of that venerate Loki? Like Loki is there God or does it not work that way? Probably. I’m gonna, I’m gonna assume they are. They are out there. It’d be really dumb to do so because Loki is a, I mean, he’s technically not even, not even a God.

You could see him as a God. He is often seen as God, but he’s not. But he is a being of chaos. So to worship a being of chaos, not the, not the smartest thing to do. But I, you know, then again, we’re talking about humans venerating gods. Not all humans are the, the smartest. So I’m going to assume there are groups. I highly recommend they, they don’t. But you know, would they just not just be a bunch of chaos magicians that are just celebrating chaos magic in general? Almost like Crowley in style, like, like the Lama or something? Then Loki would fit perfectly with that.

Yeah, Loki would, absolutely. Are there any risks, is there any danger you’re putting yourself, let’s say, aside from the fact that you’re gonna run into like some hardcore chaos magicians that just might screw up your life in general from a pragmatic standpoint. But is there any like spiritual or afterlife considerations that would be like, oh, don’t venerate Loki because this will happen. I mean, you won’t get punished for it. You know, there is no, no Lake of Fire and Brimstone. That’s boring. Yeah, I mean, that’s not to say we don’t have like realms where you, you do get punished or realms that are eternally.

Do any of those last eternally or are they all just. Yeah, no, no, absolutely. Really? What’s, what’s in it? What’s a version of eternal damnation then within, like your Germanic paganism to be forever chewed on by the dragon Nidhogg, who lives at the bottom of Yggdrasil. But that is a punishment reserved for the, for the worst of the worst. But you know, like if, if I embezzle a bunch of money, do I get into that harm people? No, it’s, it’s Germanic paganism or European paganism. Paganism is really a, a honor culture as well. So if you are dishonest, if you are a, you know, if you’re, if you’re a liar if like every, everything you say is a lie.

If you break your oath, if you break your, your word, it’s like it’s not immediately over for you. You know, it’s not as, as with Christianity, like you commit one sin and it’s like, well, that’s it, you know, no heaven for you. You gotta say you’re sorry. It’s not that hard. Yeah, no, that’s true. It’s like, okay, I repent. Okay, good. Do a few Hail Marys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s actually not that big of a deal. You can do anything you want. Pay your tithing, maybe a little extra. Let’s not get crazy here. No, but. Yeah.

So really, for, for oath breakers, liars, just horrible, horrible people who, who do inflict harm on, on others, I guess. Murderers. But what if it’s like a Dexter murderer? What if like you only kill other serial killers or something, but you lie about it? Oh wow, that is, that is very hypothetically. No, I, I like it. It’s a, it’s a good brain worm. It’s a. Because I’m assuming there’s also not necessarily like a ten Commandments that list in order. Here’s the bad to the worst. So stay up in these top like three area. Don’t get down into like seven, eight, nine.

That’s a little. No, definitely not. We have our, we have a more modern version if you will, in the, the nine noble virtues of Odin. But like I said, that’s really a modern invention. I think of the last like 40, maybe 50 years. We don’t have, we really don’t have like the, the commandments or like rules to live by. It’s basically just, you know, be a good person, take care of, take care of yourself, take care of your family, take care of your kin, love each other. Just. It’s, it’s very, very basic. Just be a good person.

That’s. That’s it. Okay, fair point. I mean I, I feel like I’ve got a decent idea of where Steinfox is coming from and the Greyhore pagan tribe. And, and you’ve, you said you’ve dabbled in Christianity. Have you dabbled in any other mainstream religions? No, no, not, not really. I know I have. How do you know you didn’t miss the, the right one? How do you know it’s like not Buddhism and you just haven’t given how you know it’s not Mormonism and you just haven’t given it a fair shake? Wow, you’re laughing sort of answers that from, from, from what I heard from, from Heidi.

Mormonism definitely is not for me. It’s the most pagan of any kind of Christian sub division, at least recent. I, I’d say that’s Catholicism because Catholicism is basically, you know, they looked at paganisms like, hey, can I, can I copy your homework? It’s like, yeah, cool. But like change it up a little bit so it doesn’t look like you, you copied it. Oh yeah. I mean, I would say a Catholicism is sort of like the prime plus. Like they, they remake all of the old movies and like they put Michael Bay in the director’s seat for every single one of them.

Like they don’t pull out all the stops. Unlimited budget. Yeah, pretty much, you know, like a billionaire backing and yeah, you don’t like billionaire based movies with high production value. I don’t watch a lot of popular media anymore anyway, so I mean if it, if it’s a, if it’s a good movie, I don’t, I don’t really care who, you know, who’s backing it. So, so you’re, you’re fairly open to and it seems like a lot of your interest lie in the type of topics that come up in these sort of like European pagan circles. Right? So yeah, I mean, I am interested in learning about other religions.

You know, Buddhism, I, I do find interesting because it’s, it looks a lot like, like paganism. You know, some people will call it like the, the, the paganism of the East. You know, when it kind of split off, like the Indo, Europeans split a lot split off in Europe it manifested itself as, you know, Hellenic, Roman paganism, Norse, Germanic. And in the east it was, you know, Buddhism, Hinduism. So it’s similar but not, not the same. And I prefer to, to stick to, you know, the, the gods of my land, the gods of my people. So yeah, that’s, that’s also a really interesting dynamic here just regionally, how much you’re just your geographic locale has an influence on what you think happens in the afterlife for everybody, like almost universally.

Right. Yeah, it definitely does. And that’s why, why I find it a, a bit of a shame that like whenever we’re talking about like spirituality, everyone is always looking east. It’s like as if we don’t have our own forms of spirituality here in the West. Like you could say there’s even like an American form of paganism. Like you have your stories, you have your, you know, your giant beings, you have your like kind of your, your gods of the American lands, you know, speaking of that, I’m actually really interested. Do you have a regional version of Bigfoot? I don’t think necessarily.

Or like a large, hairy wild man slash creature? We probably do. I think that’s, that’s really a, like, really a global phenomenon. I’m just not, not sure about the Netherlands. If we, if we have one. It. See, it seems like whenever they’re like you say, it’s a global sort of phenomenon. This is global archetype. But there do seem to be slight specific differences when you go almost country to country. I mean, in the States, it’s almost like from state to state, the definition of Bigfoot changes. Like, if you’re in Florida, then it’s like a swamp ape and they have like a different sent to it.

But if you’re, you know, in the Midwest, they have yet another unique sort of characteristic to it. Yeah, no, and I think that’s, you know, that’s, that’s nature. That’s, that’s human nature. Like, you’re gonna, you’re going to relate it to the things, you know, and like, what do you, what do you know best? Well, the things that you see around you. So, yeah, if you’re living in a swampy area, then of course you know that that creature is also going to live in a swampy area because, you know, why wouldn’t it? Like, the, the yeti is not gonna live in Florida.

That doesn’t fit. The yeti lives high up in the snowy mountains. But still, you know, it’s kind of the same being. Yeah, I guess. I mean, yeah, there’s New Yorkers living in Florida and vice versa. So I couldn’t bigfoot move climates and just change his name a little bit? Yeah, yeah, sure. No. Why not? You know, Bigfoot needs a holiday as well. We will get into the topic that me and you met over, because that one is sort of a really interesting, like, new flavor of paganism that I hadn’t come across before that. That one particular subject aside, are there any that you’ve been introduced to through your own podcast over the last, you know, year or whatever that really sparked your interest? Like, any, any new leads on stuff that, that captured your fascination? Well, I’m always, always fascinated by the work of Tom Rousel from Survive the Jive.

I have been very fortunate to have him on my, my channel. He does a lot of good work with, with genealogy as well, so that’s always very interesting. I, I will always love talking about Tartaria just. And everything that you can, like, connect to it. How, how Hardcore Tartarian. Are you, are we like mud flood, like melted building mountain people? Like giants melted in the mountains? Like where is everything for you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, like everything. It’s not that I, I, I do believe all of that but you know, I’ll, I’ll talk about it. You know, the, the weirder, the weirder the better, you know.

So I guess if we start with the weirdest claim of Tartaria and my, my understanding is very surface level. So I probably, I paint in very broad strokes. Maybe offensively so to any hardcore Tartarius or Tartarian. So I’m wondering is the, the main theory about you look at a mountain range and you see a face in it and there are some claims that like the actual terrain are giants that lay down and they sort of like petrified themselves and you’re literally looking at a giant’s body and you’re climbing on their head. When you’re climbing that mountain, do you know where like the origins from this come from? Do you have any examples of like what makes this compelling? I think a lot of it is also just the case of like what’s it called? Pareidolia.

Like just seeing phases in, in things and. Yeah, like a lot of that and make believe. But I also, you know, since giants were a thing, maybe still, still are and yeah, like why could they not be petrified in the mountains? You know there are stories from all over the world of you know, petrified beings. Like even as simple as like the, the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. You know, when some, when the sun rises, the trolls turn into stone. So why couldn’t something like that have actually happened? It’s, it’s a little, it’s a little far fetched but it’s, it’s fun to, to think about until.

Am I correct in grouping that into Tartaria theory or is that completely removed from it? It’s, it’s one offshoot of it. Yeah. Like Tartaria. So many things can be classified under the I’m interested conspiracy. I’d love to know ones that I don’t have, I haven’t heard about. So like I guess the giant mountains is one of them. The other one is that large buildings were literally melted by some high heat. I’m going to say laser. I know that’s an oversimplification but that somehow like a laser melted huge buildings and those buildings turn into also mountains in some cases.

Yeah, castles to, to be exact, just giants castles. And that part of the theory is actually a lot of people will connect it to biblical stories because at some part in the Bible I haven’t read it, I wouldn’t know. But it talks about a fervent heat, like just so incredibly hot that people and beings have to flee underground. And then the thought is like, but if it’s literally so incredibly hot that the surface of the earth has become unlivable. You know, this looks molten. Like there are certain in, I believe in Turkey, like Turkey, Syria border.

I don’t know exactly where, but it looks like just mountainous, just mountains that look like candles. Like you know, like molten candles in a, in a way, but like only from the top down. So people are kind of, you know, theorizing, fantasizing. Oh, it must have been because of some, you know, enormous source of heat, whether it be a laser or you know, like a biblical apocalypse kind of thing. And it, you know, it has molten it like from the top down. And that’s why it’s, it looks like that. That is definitely one part of it.

You know, the, the mountains are our castles is interesting or even it’s a more well known one. The Devil’s Tower. That, that used to be like a giant tree, right? Yeah, kind of looks like a tree stump. And there are some people who take that even further like to, to the insane degree almost and will say that continents as, as a whole used to be giant trees. That’s a little, so they were just like seven big trees at some point and they all got chopped down. I, I, I guess so. You know, like not taking into account like Pangea and, and all of that.

Pangea just would have been one big tree. Right. And we’re just like living in the root system probably. And then you know, it got broken into several pieces over the millions of years. I, I have no idea how that would have worked. What about the, the technological claims of Tartaria? I’m also very murky on. But like when we say lasers for example, there are some iterations that I’m, I’m grasping at. But when it implied this was a technological laser, not just some hole in the ozone or like a sun flare that, you know, a solar flare that like created this melting effect, but that technology might have been behind it.

And then I guess sort of adjacent to that is the idea that the, this Tartarian empire had some sort of Atlantean or very, what we might consider like advanced technology beyond what we even have now. How much of that do I have accurate? A lot. That’s the, that’s the, the, the broad spectrum of it. All but I think this is more my, my personal opinion that it’s like not really technology. You know, if we like the like technology as we know it. You know, like I’m sitting here behind technology, I have technology in my head looking right.

Well, to be fair, I guess I would consider like a hammer technology or a monkey sticking a stick into an ant hill. That’s technic. That’s technically technology. True, true. You know, he’s, yeah, it’s in supports. So yeah, it is technology. No, but I, I, I, it’s more. Oh God, how do I explain this? Like more. It’s kind of another part, you know, coming with the, the free energy and all the free energy regeneration. It’s more like that one of the claims of Tartarian technology, that they had free supplies of free energy. Yeah yeah. And that’s like, that’s why you see the like huge spires on, on churches that is supposed to be like where they would catch and gather and like process in some kind of alchemical process the, the energy in the ether, you know, in the, in the, in the skies.

Because like everything is electric. We are electric beings. Electricity is all around us. And in some, you know, advanced technological way they managed to harness that. So they had like true free electricity and true free energy, like the kinds that Nikola Tesla used to speak about. Right. This is like the spires are almost indicating like they’re tapping into the ionosphere and somehow harvesting that energy. And I’ve also seen this particular line of thinking dovetail into the comparison of cities and circuit boards and just even from like a visual aspect where someone be like, look, the city is a circuit board because they both kind of like run energy around certain ways.

That is definitely a, a larger part of it. You know, when you speak about Tartaria and technology, that is usually what people, what people mean. Okay, so those are the, I guess the most novel elements of Tartarian theory that I’ve come across. Am I leaving any like really good ones on the table? Are there other aspects of Tartaria? It would also be like, wow. What? Yeah, cymatics, the, the power of sound and the healing power of, of sound. Like that’s one of my, one of my favorites actually. One of my favorite parts that the, that churches as we as we know them now with the huge like rose windows, like very intricate patterns that those are sound patterns that you can recreate with like a vibrational table and sand.

Like they are, there are sound vibrational patterns and that like through the, like the church bells for example, and the brass organ in combination or somehow in combination with those rose windows that churches would act as not centers of religion and faith, but healing, like healing through just energy and vibration. And that, that is why people would go like, ecstatic in, in church or what we now know as, as church. And later on when, you know, the Christian church and everyone like took over because they took over Europe, they’re the, the eternal bad guys. They just were like, oh, no, no, no, no, we’re gonna use this now and just, you know, as in we’re gonna use it for worshiping our lords, like somewhere high up in the sky.

And we’re gonna like, keep the technology hidden. It’s also like one big conspiracy and all, but like the power of cymatics, the power of sounds. You can also use it for levitation, for example. Certain sound waves cause levitation or can, you know, and that’s like, for example, also one of the theories of how the great pyramids were built partly or as a whole through the use of cymatics, of sound vibrations. There’s also a location here in Florida called Coral Castle, which invites all sorts of speculation on that exact topic that was he using some kind of complicated, you know, like vibrational technology to lift these things in the middle of the night.

So. Yeah, yeah, you mentioned one thing there that, that actually piqued my interest that Christianity is seen as this, this like, enemy. Like, this is, you know, like the, the empire moving through Europe and sort of taking everything and repurposing it and stealing their technology and hiding it. Yeah. Where, where are you at on that actual theory? The, like, how, how much do you agree with that concept that Christianity was like, oh, nice technology you got there. I’m stealing it, I’m hiding it, I’m using it for my own gods. There’s probably some truth to it, you know, like, whatever is not Christian, whatever doesn’t, you know, benefit them.

They probably either, you know, took or destroyed or converted in, in some way. But I don’t believe it is this, this grand, you know, almost global conspiracy and that they are, you know, that they’re hiding everything and they don’t want you to know that. And I mean, it makes for, you know, incredibly good titles specifically. Did, like, what do you think the chances are that the church knows how to levitate stone through vibration and they’re just keeping that technology hidden from the entire world for the last 2000 plus years, like somewhere in the Vatican archives or, or something, you know.

Now I don’t, I don’t think they do I don’t think they do. I don’t think that, you know, during that, that reset, if you will, that’s, that’s how, you know, how they prefer to, to call it a great resets that, you know, they probably didn’t even know what it was. They probably, didn’t. They, they were probably told like, oh, yeah, you know, like, no, we’re, we’re using it for this. Okay, but we don’t know how it works. It’s, you know, we can’t use it. So we’re just gonna like, either do nothing with it, just, you know, leave it be, or we’re going to destroy it.

Because, you know, that’s also what humans do. If we don’t know it, we destroy it. In, in these, I’m gonna say, like in Tartarian circles, as if, like you drive around and you like, meet them on every Saturday or something, but like the other communities and the other people or podcasts or anything where Tartaria is like, they’re sympathetic to it, not just as a morbid curiosity, but like, hey, I think there’s something to this. Let’s look into it. What, what are the thoughts on Atlantis? Is Atlantis just like the Greek whitewashed version of another Tartaria? Or is Atlantis its own story that just happens to have a similar reset, like structure to it? Usually it’s considered as its own kingdom, its own realm, its own story, as you said.

Like, yeah, there definitely are people who are like, oh, you know, it’s ancient Atlantean race, ancient Hyperborean technology or something, but. Right, they had like hover jets and they had like teleportation devices and who knows? Yeah, yeah, yeah, all that like ET stuff. No, usually those two are, are separated. All right. And one of the other things that maybe gets conflated with Tartarian thought too is the concept of flat Earth. That like part of this great reset and part of this knowledge and technology that gets wiped out and hidden is also the concept of flat Earth and that we’ve all been sold on this, this spherical Earth.

Yeah, that is, that is definitely another, another. Can, can you be a Tartarian but believe in the globe or is that like a minority? I, I, I don’t know. I think Flat Earthers, there’s, there’s something not entirely right with them to, to, to put it very mildly. But I, I don’t, it’s, I don’t know, man. It’s, you have so many people believing, so many. Okay, so these are not mutually exclusive things, but also it doesn’t There is to believe in Flat Earth if you’re Tartari. So some people will say that, yes. Like if you’re, you know, a real Tartarian, like you have to believe in Flat Earth and others just really don’t care.

It’s not, it’s not a must. You know, it’s not like one of the rules that if you want to, want to research or look into Tartaria or, you know, if you want to believe it, you have to also believe in Flat Earth. I don’t believe it’s like a, a fixed rule. And if it is, I’m, I’m, you know, breaking it from the very beginning. Right. I mean, I detect a little bit of criticism over Flat Earth theory from you. Where, where are you at on this? I, I don’t care about the shape of the Earth. I mean, you don’t think that, that there’s profound sort of consequences for whether or not we live on a spherical object versus a, an infinite plane.

We live in a realm that is the best I can make of it. We live in a physical realm on something we have called a planet that we call earth, even though 77% of it is water. Well, see that, that claim right alone though, almost seems like contrary to some versions of Flat Earth, because some versions of Flat Earth, we do live on an infinite plane. And therefore you wouldn’t be able to say that our planet is x percent water because it’s infinite. You can’t really separate infinity into categories like that. No, that’s, that’s true. No, I, I, I, I stay away from that discussion.

You know, round Earth, flat Earth, hollow Earth, donut shaped, cigar shaped. I, I really, I don’t care. It’s, it’s not, not important to me and I don’t think it’s really helping anyone. You know, we’re still getting over by just. You’re right. You’re absolutely right. If I could just make a very hypothetical non practical case. But, but to me, I guess the fascination is, is literally the difference between infinite resources and real estate versus a finite amount. And those two things seem, would like, it would affect all of society like you know, in very substantial ways if someone was like, no, don’t worry about it, we’ve got infinite water and we’ve got infinite land.

It just goes on forever. We’re just kind of cordoned off to this little area for now so we don’t screw up the, the rest of it. That does seem like it would be profound. Yeah. Like if, if that’s, if that’s the case then. Yeah, absolutely. You know, if there are, you know, let’s say there is indeed an ice wall, and let’s say that, you know, that’s also a part of, part of Flat Earth. I believe that, you know, the ice wall is not the ends, it’s just what separates, you know, the lands that we know from the other lands beyond the ice wall, you know? Yeah, that would be a, a shocking discovery.

And that would mean that, you know, precious metals may not be as precious, you know, that fossil fuels may indeed not be so finite as, as we think. And you can litter as much as you want, like the, eventually that trash will blow away to some place you’ll never even visit. Yeah, I mean, like we have freaking trash islands floating around in the ocean already. Like, why not a, like a whole trash realm? You know, I mean, maybe that’s where we are at. We just don’t realize it. Like we’re literally living in the trash realm. I, I unfortunately can get behind that idea.

No, but it’s, it’s interesting to, to think about, you know, is there more than that we know? Is there more than, you know, than we have been told? Is, is NASA like lying to, you know, to us about, I mean, yeah, isn’t their name literally translates to lie or deception? I, I, I believe so. Yeah, I believe so. And no, of course they’re not, you know, they’re not telling the truth, or at least not, not the, the full truth. So yeah, take it with a grain of salt. But, you know, just all the, the theories and excuses that some of those Flat Earthers will come up with, it’s, it’s exhausting.

You know, like, even if there are photographs made from what technically would be space, it’s, you know, always with a fish islands, you know, all those pictures are made with the fish islands, and that’s why you see the curve, but the curve is actually not there. You know, that’s also just another conspiracy. It’s so everything’s a conspiracy with those guys. It is. Okay, so another to tie up sort of some of those totalitarian theories you mentioned of a keyword which was reset and reset. I guess the way that I’ve understood this in Tartarian theory is an intentional reset.

Like somebody decided to shake the Etch A Sketch and clear the playing field again. But these, that these global resets, they tend to be mentioned in that humanity reached a certain level of technology, or in this case a Tartarian empire reached a certain level of understanding and technology and knowledge and somebody other than the Tartarians decided, hey, you guys are getting a little too big for your britches. We’re gonna go ahead and knock you down a few pegs and see, you know, like, like let’s even the, the playing field a little bit is. Do I have that somewhat correct? And if, and if so you’re nodding yes a little bit.

Who is the away team in this case? Like, is this the Catholic Church? Is this just like everyone button? Oh, that’s a good one. I don’t, I don’t know actually. I’ve, I’ve never really looked into like into who’s the bad guy, you know, who is, who is pushing the reset button. I’ve ever, never really, if you just were to speculate now without. I, I, I would indeed say that probably the most common theory would be that it is some higher being or something like a tower of babbles kind of situation. Yeah. For example. Yeah. Since you know, history does repeat itself, it, yeah.

That that might just be it. You know, could be, could be God, could be the devil, could be, I don’t know, aliens, could be, you know, a, a higher being of, of some kind that, that disagrees with what we do that you know, is perhaps is indeed like scared that we, that we reach levels of godhood in that way. You know, because that is what most, you know, what a lot of people are trying to do with technology or with religion. You know, we’re trying to attain godhood or just immortality and in some way. And I can definitely imagine there’s some higher being this like no, no, we’re just gonna a do over.

Well in, in the more I guess modern versions of this like reset theory. I’ve heard ideas that say like cathedrals in Europe, that those were already there and then just like taken over. Like nobody in medieval times built those that they had been there for way longer. And I guess in America it more acute in that they say like the buildings in Chicago that were claimed to have been built in the early 1900s that they were already there and that, you know, some of the, the lar. Like the world fairs were these covers for this new establishment to come in.

So I guess in, in the world fair version of this there is kind of a bad guy. But I guess I’m not really sure. It just seems like it’s like the Rockefellers or the Morgans or whoever was the usual suspects. But I, I think like by, by saying that like yeah, I, I do believe that you know, with a reset things do get left behind. You know, either they Are, you know, they’re buried or, you know, flooded or whatever. Things do get left behind. But I also think it is taking a lot of credit away to or from like, our ancestors or, you know, the, the, the people who were there who did live in those times to say that, like, oh, no, they did not create that.

I mean, we are capable of amazing things. Amazing. What about the, the pyramids? Do you think, do you think humans made the pyramids? Or do you think that that was assisted by like some supernatural or extraterrestrial intervention? Yeah, probably more so supernatural than extraterrestrial, but I, I believe it was mankind who, who built it. I don’t think it was aliens. I don’t think it was, you know, anything else than humans. Do you think cymatics? I think part of it, yeah. I think that is a, it is a likely explanation. I, I have no idea how that would work.

Could work with, you know, multi ton blocks, but it is, it is a theory that is, that is out there. It is a, a possibility. There is a lot that we don’t know and there is even more that we have forgotten. So this, this might be almost like a, an American centric way of thinking. So I’m just curious if I were to piecemeal it out. Growing up in like, American pop culture and like learning about occultism, it usually dovetails into like, Satanism. And then from Satanism, you kind of get a lot of conspiracy theory and stuff.

Like it just amounts to, don’t trust, trust any authority figure. And then that leads into like, conspiratorial and occultism. Almost like is one big ball. It takes. Yeah, it took me a while to separate those two and realize that there’s, you know, like conspiracy theories can be completely secular from any sort of supernatural or occult stuff. How, like, where are you on conspiracy theories? I got. Do you find that you are as receptive to topics about occultism as conspiracy. Conspiracy theories? Or are you, like, more in favor of one or the other? I like the occult topics better because they, it’s probably the mystic, mystical part of it, you know, that seems so, you know, it’s so out of this world.

It’s so strange and different and conspiracy theories. I, I’ve, I’ve grown tired of conspiracy of conspiracy theories. You know, they’re, they’re always, they’re always the same. It’s always the usual suspects. It’s always, you know, the government, it’s always the illuminati, it’s the CIA. It’s, it’s, you know, those those 12 families or 13 families, however, according to Fred Springmeier. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have grown just incredibly tired of that. Although that has been a gateway for me, like, into more occult topics because they, you know, they are related. I just see it as. Yeah, like, as a gateway.

Like it should be a gateway into, you know, more. Well, more interesting, more. More fruitful things. Like if you’re forever stuck on just, you know, basic conspiracy theories, you’re. You’re doing something wrong. Like, there’s so much more. More there. And I also think it’s incredibly cheap to like, call everything satanic. It is so cheap. It’s so easy. Like, oh, this, this, you know, this, this looks like that it’s satanic. No, it’s probably. I mean, it can be a cult. Sure. It’s something that you don’t understand clearly, but it’s not satanic. Come on. That’s so niche. What even is true Satanism? Because everyone always.

With Satanism, we always think like, love Satanism. And he was such a poser. He was a theater kid. Yeah, yeah. He loved to perform. Well, that, that was essentially the split. But so, I mean, not to get it all because this is like American slash European, but like American centric occultism. And the whole split between lavey and the Temple of Set and Michael Aquino where he was like, you know, I’m not taking this stuff or that Leve wasn’t taking it seriously enough. He was too much of a vaudeville sort of like cabaret entertainer guy. That’s very like, dude, I’m in the military.

I don’t have time for you to get drunk and play the piano. Everyone has time for that. Come on. No, I’m interested in your takes on. You kind of laughed at Mormonism a little bit. Thanks to Heidi. I’m sure she helped that a. Along a little bit. What about, like, Scientology? Where. Where are you at on Scientology? You think that there’s any truth to any of it or. They have a. They have a large location here in the Netherlands in, In Amsterdam. Have you dabbled? Have you given. Have you walked in and, and been like, tell me about Dianetics and.

No, you. No, I, I. Well, first of all, I don’t have that much money, nor can I afford to go into. It’s a couple million dollars. Who doesn’ dollars later? Yeah, just somewhere and, you know, I’ll just like, shake up my mattress. There should be something in there. No, I think it’s, I think it’s, it’s. It’s a, A very large, very elaborate and very rich cult. I don’t, I don’t think there is. I mean they, they took bits and pieces from a whole lot of things, you know, like bad vibes and bad energy and you know, this device can measure that.

And yeah, it, it does measure things. It measures stress levels, I believe through like sweat even, you know, and they like ask all kinds of difficult questions, of course, because you know, they need to kind of rile you up, you know, get you into a heightened emotional state. Otherwise you’re not, you know, you’re not gonna join if you’re just level headed. So yeah, of course they’re, they’re gonna find something. And of course they, they have the cure, they have the solution. All of them do somehow. But I don’t. It’s like I said, they took bits and pieces from, you know, a whole range of occults and religious and spiritual topics and schools and made themselves very rich with it.

Tell me if I’m misguided here, but it almost seems like you might have a personal preference towards things closer to source or more of like the original version of something. And it almost seems that the more a philosophy or like a way of thinking sort of becomes a menagerie of like an amalgamation of like the, the best hits, right? Like once you start putting the best hits together of all the greatest best hits albums and being like, this is my favorite group or are you just like, that’s garbage. You got to go back to like the original like, like garage van recorded demo.

Are you a little bit of a hit? Like a pagan hipster in this case? Yeah, like in the black metal community. Like true cult. No, no, not, not that, you know, I, I try to, you know, like to. To each their own. If it works for you, it works, it works for you. That is, that’s, that’s fine with me. I, I just don’t personally believe in it. Like I’m, I’m not a, I’m not a purist, I’m not a, you know, a hipster. It’s not like, oh, you know, only the original form is like, you know best and like, oh, you know, it’s, it’s become too mainstream and all of that.

You know, it’s really like if you’re, if you’re a pagan tribe just gets so popular and now you’re like, you’re all millionaires. Do you lose interest because it’s exhibiting signs of, of things that, that you don’t like in other examples or like, so like send your millions to Greyhorn’s podcast No qualms. No, no. Absolutely no. Absolutely not. I, I, you know, I would like to say that I’d be using it for, you know, all the right things. What would you do? So if someone donated right now, they dropped like $20 million in your, your Patreon or whatever where, like, where you go, Are you buying land and creating cathedrals or.

Not cathedrals necessarily, but my dream, my ideal is indeed to buy land and really start a community, make it livable. How much of that money are you putting toward searching for Box treasure? I, I would definitely donate some to, to a couple people who seem to be very interested in it. You know, like, here’s, here’s a bag of money. Go nuts. That pun unintended, I guess. No, I, I, I wouldn’t go look for it myself. If they open up the bag, they’re like, there’s just a bunch of currency in here. They’re a little disappointed. They’re expecting something else.

No, you know, they, they would, they would, they would, you know, open up the sack and, you know, try would like to fight actual nuts. That’s the, the topic that me and you, I think, came across each other’s paths. There’s no way to say anything about this topic and not make it all sound like we’re just talking about. So this was the Box Saga of Eeyore Bach. And thank you so very much for putting together and a, like, an all star panel of people that I haven’t seen come together in that format. We got to talk directly to a number of contemporaries of your book, including Michelle Merle was in there, who, like, lived with Eeyore Bach, is his good friend for, like, decades, I want to say, along with a number of other, I don’t want to discredit any of the other people that, that were on that call.

There was like 12 people. It felt like at a certain point it was, it was a lot. It was a good group. I still, still, I’m still looking for time and space to, to host it again, to, like, do a. I would love to, man. That was, it was. So let me just ask you, how did you come across Box Saga? Oh, man, that’s a good one. Was it Internet? Was it someone in real life? No, the, the Internet. Of course, the Internet. Like, it’s such a, I mean, you’re closer than I am. I know you don’t live in Scandinavia.

That is true. I, I, you know, might, might have, might as well have been someone in real life. No. Oh, how did, how did I find it? I Don’t even remember. I. I think it was. I mean I’m always interested in, you know, like different, different stories, you know, different tellings of. Of history. So I think I might have come across it. Might have come across it that way or maybe. Maybe Andy from. From deep share or like later on. I don’t. I don’t even remember how. How important do you think Box Saga is? It is very important to a lot of people.

Helpful to you and your opinion to the rest of the world. Like, how much should the rest of the world care that the Box Saga even exists? To each their own really. I think it is a. I think it’s a fascinating story. I think there is, there is truth in, in some parts of it. Not sure about the whole, you know, monkey, goats and you know, blowing yourself kind of thing. Not, not a big, it’s kind of a big crux of it, like. Yeah. And embrace other parts of it. No. Yeah. No, I guess I can’t.

It’s not Tartaria. This like, this is actually written down. And there is a certain like Tartarian flavor to the Box Saga as well. In, in that it relies on the rest of the world corrupting this like highly advanced society and then keeping it secret and like not allowing anyone else to talk about it so that it can get. And just to. To shoehorn in an example where this has worked. I mean, Rome basically taking down Carthage and trying to out the Phoenician empire through like the multiple Punic Wars. I mean we still have a record of it, but it’s mostly a record of someone else talking about what this group of people did.

And all their original records are more or less gone forever. And we really don’t have any other tales on it. When I was, when I came across Box Saga, it had that same sort of claim where it was like, we’ve got all these records, we had these lineages, we had our own set of, of gods and deities and pantheons, but it was taken out and never to be discovered again if it weren’t for this, this like verbal, this like oral record. Yeah, no, that’s, that’s indeed the whole like such a, a large part of the, the retellings of the Box Saga.

It’s the, the Alphabet and the like. It’s supposed to be verbal, like you’re not supposed to write it down. I don’t know why. Reasons. Yeah. Reasons, sure. They’re. They’re very adamant about it, I have to say. And indeed like Erobach was, you know, was the first one in the Buck family and the Buck Tower and all of that. And then Jim Chester it was, who was a, I think like a student of his or like a good friend of, of him. He was like the, I believe like the last one who like personally knew Eeyore or like knew the, the purest form of the saga.

And now like over the years and over the generations, especially now that Jim, Jim Chester has also passed away, it’s like become less pure and like a whole lot of speculation and just like connecting things that don’t connect or you know, pulling things apart that shouldn’t have been pulled apart. It’s the, the waters are muddies for sure when it comes to the Box Saga, although the people who do follow it, who do research it, a good friend of mine as well, Zarolath Zarath, immortal. He is a, a very big, well, buck believer, I believe. Yeah, he, you know, he sees a lot of value in it and I mean that’s, you know, good for him.

I think it’s, like I said, I think it’s a fascinating story and other than that. Yeah, I don’t know. You know, I’ll, I’ll leave all the, the research and thinking about it to, to the people who busy themselves with it. I have other things I’ve, I’ve also find it a fascinating topic and even, even if I get beyond what most people complain about, you kind of hinted at it is the, the goat and the monkey essentially. Right. And for anyone that’s listening, there’s not enough time in this interview to break down the whole Box Saga. Although I’ve got like a six hour video I did with Juan.

You can go, I’ll, maybe I’ll link that in the link too. Go watch the Rumble version though, not the YouTube version because it’s, that’s highly censored for. So one of the premises of Box Saga is that a goat and a monkey copulated and they created the first humans and then the humans started procreating with themselves and that, that was what gave birth to, I guess, sort of like a master race of like Nordic peoples that had advanced knowledge and technology and morality and then over time that became diluted and corrupted. And that is why we’ve got all of the problems in modern society.

And then if, hypothetically if we reverted back to those original Box Saga ways that lasted for, I think some, some claims as much as 2 million years that it had gone on. But if we revert back to that, problems go away. Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s the gist of it. It can’t get shorter than that. I can’t imagine. That’s not without, you know, leaving out some very crucial things. No, but that, yeah, no, that’s, that’s basically it, as ridiculous as it sounds. But there are just entire groups and communities who are like hardcore in that. Like that’s their truth.

And the only truth. I mean there are some beyond fascinating aspects of Box, like you mentioned the Alphabet and that one of these premises is that each, each letter in this Bach Alphabet represent astrological processions of planets, observations, and that you can put them all and they represent a calendar and they represent the zodiac and there’s, there’s almost like a gematria, numerology, symbology. Yeah, there is. And I, and I find that it goes over my head. Like I, I don’t have the mental like, I guess, stamina to, to sit through and actually figure out all of those different processions because you get out like a ruler and a protractor and a compass to like plot all these things out.

And at a certain point you just got to be like, I trust whatever you’re doing is accurate because I don’t know what the hell you’re doing right now. No, I’ve, I’ve had that on at least like two or three of the, the shows on Box saga that, that I did. It was with Dustin. Like he’s really one of the, I guess the key figures of like the new generation of bacchanauts and yeah, like that, that whole aspect I do find fascinating. You know, the, the Alphabet, the sounds, astrology and everything that comes with it. And also that the Alphabet like that you’re supposed to write it in such a way that like every letter connects to each other or like in the way that you write it, that you can create the new letter or I believe it also even works with the, with the numbers like that you can create it from it.

That part is indeed incredibly fascinating. I mean language in of itself is just, it’s very fascinating. It’s a fascinating thing to, to think about, you know, the history of language. Like why, why do we say the things that we do? Why do we speak the way that we do? And Boxaga, you know, has a. Goes very, very deep in that. So yeah, I, I definitely agree, agree with that. Like those parts I would love to, to know more about, I would love to learn more about, but unfortunately, you know, I got to take the goat monkey and the, the whole self copulating thing with it.

And that’s something That I can, I can go without. I mean, it’s some. You can just interpret it metaphorically. There’s a lot of literal translations of it. So, okay, we’ve gone over a whole gamut of different ideas and concepts. And so I like to wrap up some of these shows with kind of like a quick fire version of all these. I’ll play the segment first for you and then I’ll describe what we’re going to do. It’s really simple. Sounds good. Hey, conspiracy buffs. I double dare you to take some pcp. The paranormal conspiracy probe. On your marks, get set and go.

All right, everyone loves this segment, so I’m going to just be doing this for everyone the first time they’re on the show. The rules is just, I’m going to mention a certain topic and I just want you to get off the fence maybe and just rate it from like 1 to 10. So if you want to stay on the fence or you’re like, I don’t care. Like, for example, if you’re like, I don’t care if the earth is flat or globe or whatever, I leave it to other people, that’s a solid five. Right. You don’t have to make a judgment call one way or the other.

But if you’re like, I think it might be more so if we were to start on flat earth, for example, if, if you could rate how likely it is that we live on a flat earth from 1 to 10. 4. Okay, how about the concept of the Tartarian giants that we talked about? Big, big jolly green giant lays down and petrifies and now his face is a mountain. 6. Well, laser castles. 6. Dinosaurs. 8. That the dinosaurs are existing. That they. So you broke up for just a split second there? Yeah, no, I, I noticed no dinosaurs ate.

That they indeed existed. How about the, the concept that the Vatican in their secret archive somewhere has some kind of a hidden technology that would change life for everybody worldwide? A ton. About. Just the blanket statement. And I’ll get more specific, but the blanket statement that magic is real. 10. Okay, now I want to, I want to drill into this just because I’m not even sure what I mean if I say magic is real. So let’s say this is a hypothetical. These are all going to be hypotheticals. I go on Amazon and I just search for like the most popular, you know, grimoire or whatever translated into modern English.

And I order that book and I follow the instructions 1 to 10 that I can produce magic by kind of just like following the formula. Seven. I want to Say yeah, seven. What, what were you thinking of? What, what made it hard to come up with a number on that one? Like, what were the different, like, qualifications you through? I don’t know, like modern, modern grimoires, modern magic. I mean, first of all, I don’t believe, I don’t necessarily believe that you need those books to be able to practice it. And I think it’s also very much intent.

So. Okay, well, let’s, let’s flip that around. Let’s say I just saw Snow White. I’m a, you know, I’m seven years old. I just saw the original Snow White, or I saw some, you know, Cinderella or one of the early Disney movies, and I hear him saying bippity boppity boo or you know, boil, bubble, toil, trouble. Like some kind of like Shakespearean quote, right? And now I go in the other room and I just boil up some water and I throw a lizard skeleton in there that I found and I put intent into it one to ten that I can produce some kind of magic just through my own like, intuition.

8. I’m sure something will happen and we can, we can sort of deviate a little bit from like the 1 to 10. Because I, I do have follow ups on this. Because you are very adamant that magic is real 10 and that whether or not you try and do it, you’re seven or eight, you’re going to be able to accomplish it. So what, what kind of like, if I were to define magic as doing some sort of incantation or ritual, even if it’s a silent ritual or some sort of process, it would have a very real effect on like the outside physical world, like a world that is entirely secular and I’m the only magical thinking person in it that I can have an effect on that world.

And I guess with a, an annoying stipulation that it can’t just be that I put myself into a certain mind state. So now I, I accept or notice things more than I would have previously. I mean like an act, some kind of actual influence that draws people to me and not just through my own natural rapport and charisma. So like, like to, to try and simplify that magic that affects the objective world outside of my little microcosm that believes in magic. You don’t got to give us a number. I’m just looking to. I think the world is too big for just one person to have such an effect on it.

If it’s in the more like the more microcosm, more direct circles, like your more immediate circles. Yeah. I, I think you can make a difference and maybe through the, the, like a ripple effect that you can eventually make a change in the world. But I don’t think it’s a, it’s a direct line. I don’t. Is there a difference between that type of magic and therapy? I mean, therapy, you could say therapy is magic, like very, very rudimentary perhaps. But I think if you start to feel better about yourself, then, you know, like, then other people will see that and they’ll be happy that you’re happy and you know, maybe, I don’t know, like, start inviting you to things again because you’re not such a freaking Debbie Downer, you know? I don’t know.

I think, yeah, I think magic is very, can be very broad, but I don’t think it, there is a, like a one on one. I don’t think you can have like an effect like on the, the outside world, like right away, like, like you’ll see in the movies. Like, it’s like, like you, you wave your wand like all of a sudden like this big storm comes, like freaking rolling in and whatever. Like the whole country goes to. I don’t think that’s. Well, if it’s an officially licensed Harry Potter one from Universal. Oh, that’s, that’s different. No.

Okay, be careful with those things. Just, just a few more one to tens here. Bigfoot, one to ten. And it can be any region. It can be Yeti, Sasquatch, it can be any of them. But that like that genus archetype exists in the physical world. Oh, seven. How about the claim that a human being has stepped foot on the moon in the last 100 years? Doesn’t even have to be NASA, just any person has stepped foot on the moon. 8. All right, now final one related to that, the, the validity of the footage that we were shown by NASA in the 60s.

Like if you were to give that a scale of 1 to 10, that that was accurate, that that was actually a recording of a person on the moon. Oh. From NASA. Although, I mean, there’s only one footage, right. I’m gonna say for like slight elaboration. I think there is footage, but what we have shown or what we have been shown is most likely highly doctored. I like it. I think I’m aligned with you on, on most of these answers here, so. And okay, so we’re, we’re completely done with the, the 1 to 10. Normally I would start wrapping up, although I’ve got one final question that might be a little bit of a can of Worms.

So you can be as brief or, or as brief as you want. But oh dear. What are your thoughts on AI? Because you do, you do seem like you’re overly critical of entirely magical and maybe magical thing the wrong way to put it. But just like conspiratorial thinking where you just make these grand assumptions in lack of any other information. But you also do believe in magic in a very real way. So like what, what do you think AI is? I think AI is, is a tool first and foremost or we should be using it as a tool at least.

Although I do believe that it has some kind of consciousness. I. I don’t know. I don’t know how to describe it but I think AI is, you know, again, it’s not what we have been or what we are being told it is. I think it is more, more advanced. I don’t think it’s, it’s necessarily dangerous. I think it’s a tool. I think it’s a very handy. And it depends on the use of the tool if it’s dangerous or not. But I think it’s more than. I think it’s more. Do you think there’s anything at all supernatural about AI currently in 2025? Supernatural? Even when you mention consciousness.

I guess there’s ways you can define consciousness. Yeah, true. Allow it to exist in a world of computers. So I’m wondering is there, is there something like out of the normal physical realm and physics that’s at play here? Some people say oh, it’s infested by demons or it’s being used as like a way to channel entities from other realms or other planets or spirits. That’s that. I don’t believe if anything AI then would be a entity in of itself. I do believe it has some form of maybe not consciousness but self awareness. So I think AI is like, it’s, it’s not used to, to channel beings.

I, I just. Okay, it’s not a high tech Ouija board then it can probably be used in that way, but I don’t think that is what it is. Do you have like a bias for or against AI? Like do you think it’s, it’s going to be in our lifetimes a net positive or net negative? I think it’s going to be a net positive. Do you think there’s a certain point when the trajectory changed to net negative? If we’re not careful, it most definitely will. If you, you know, if we let the, the bigger corporations handle, you know, the, the development of AI I mean when you say let Almost implies as if there’s some sort of structure that normal people could rally against or, like, you know, like, like form.

But I, like, how would that work? How, how do we regulate larger corporations that have these massive resources and can do all, you know, all of their AI training and development in secret? I, I, I, I don’t have an answer to, to how we, we could do that. I know that, that I’m just asking you to solve. I know. I, I know, I know that we can, and I think that as a, as a collective, we should figure out the how. I don’t think one man has an answer to that. Do you think magic, like the, the magic that you believe in and that you practice can interact with AI in any way, or do they live in two completely separate worlds once? Oh, I’ve never thought about that, actually.

That’s a good one. I think in, at the very least in our lifetimes, it will stay separate. It’ll. Yeah, for, yeah, it’ll stay separate for a, A long, long time. I, I love your optimism, man. I like that. You’re, you seem to be an optimist. You seem to be a very critical, rational person. I apologize that you’re gonna basically be tormented forever in a lake of fire because you haven’t accepted the one true God. But, but outside of that, you’re a pretty cool guy, man. I mean, I guess I have, I have one flaw. Well, you know, if that’s it, then, you know, I’ll, I’ll deal with it.

That’s fine. One. Yeah. Just the one. No. Yeah, but no, thank you. I mean, these are some, those are some tough questions, man. I mean, they’re not intended to be, so I just, Sometimes I just like to keep picking until, like, we find, like, the crux of something. And, well, I’m, and, and you’re, you’re very good at it. I appreciate it. Is there anything that I should have gotten into that we didn’t get a chance to, that we can do next time? I’m, I’m sure something will eventually, eventually will come up, but for now, I think we, we tackle, we tackled a lot.

I think we, yeah, like, the, the most crazy parts we, we definitely touched on. All right, I’m glad, man. I’m glad this was, this was fun because I don’t normally get to talk about Hell, Flat Earth and Tartaria and Box Saga all in one episode, and even the ones that I do get to do those things, there’s usually. It feels so high stakes, not, not on my end, but Usually someone has a very strong bone to pick one way or the other. Either you get chastised for even giving it attention, or you get chastised for not being like, you know, dyed in the wool, sort of like zealot over some of these topics.

So it is refreshing to be able to talk about it from like a third, you know, like, point of view, almost like somewhat detached as like an objective thing. So I appreciate that, man. And also this is. I think the. The biggest selling point to go and listen to Greyhorn Pagans podcast is that you. You get into the fringe topics, like the fringe of the fringe, from alchemy to flat earth to like all sorts of magical thinking. But I like how objective that you’re able to be about it. So appreciate everything that you do, man. I appreciate you putting together the Box Saga roundtable, let people know again where they can find you and send you that $20 million so that you can go on your treasure hunt.

Yeah, no, for sure. Thank you for. Thank you for having me. This has been. This has been fun. I. I’ve definitely had to. To use my brains more than I anticipated, but yeah, Steinfox hosted the Greater Pagans podcast. Main channel is on YouTube. Everything else is just on the bigger podcasting platforms. You can send those 20 million to. To the Patreon, which you can find on our website, www.greyhornpagans.com or, you know, even better, just give it cash that way. The tax man. Yeah, yeah, Patreon’s gonna be taking like, like at least six figures out of that.

Oh, fuck no, no, hell no. Just. I’ll. I’ll. I’ll take cash. You know, the tax man doesn’t have to know. No. Yeah, so Green Pagans podcast greyhoundpaggins.com that is the. The hub for everything that we do and where you can find everything from Patreon to merge to podcast to main tribal chats and just whole range of. Whole range of things. Stein, thank you again, man, for your time. Appreciate everything you do. And I’ll see you on the next one of these. Yeah, for sure, man. Thank you. Paranoid I scribbled my life away Driven to write the page Will it enlight your brain give you the flight my plane paper the highs ablaze somewhat of an amazing feel when it’s real to real you will engage it your favorite of course the lord of an arrangement I gave you the proper results to hit the pavement if they get emotional.

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