Mafia vs. Hells Angels: Former President Reveals All

➡ The text is a conversation between Michael Francis and Pee Wee Goldsmith, a former president of the Hells Angels chapter in Las Vegas. They discuss the differences between the Hells Angels and the Mafia, emphasizing that they are not the same. Pee Wee shares his disappointment with the lack of brotherhood and loyalty within the Hells Angels, leading to his departure. The conversation also touches on the corruption and backstabbing that exists in all organizations, not just criminal ones.
➡ The text discusses a person’s experience with a motorcycle club, highlighting the sense of brotherhood, power, and prestige it initially offered. However, the club’s size and politics led to disappointment, with jealousy and control issues becoming prevalent. The person also mentions a positive experience with a TV show, which was met with disapproval from the club. Despite the challenges, the person still respects the opportunities the club provided.
➡ The speaker recounts his experiences with a motorcycle club in Las Vegas, where he eventually became president. He describes the initiation process as similar to joining a college fraternity, with new members expected to do menial tasks. He also shares his time in prison and the violent rivalry between his club and another group, the Outlaws. The speaker emphasizes the lack of trust within the club and the constant suspicion of new members.
➡ The text is about a former member of the Hell’s Angels, a worldwide motorcycle club. He shares his experiences, including the highs of being recognized and respected, and the lows of feeling disrespected and eventually leaving the club. He also discusses the club’s expansion to places like Egypt and Croatia, and the internal conflicts within the group. Despite leaving, he still feels a strong connection to the club and the lifestyle it represents.
➡ The speaker was falsely accused of being a rat by his group, which led to his isolation. After serving time in prison, the group realized their mistake but still kept him out due to his interactions with the police. He criticizes the group’s lack of structure and intelligence, recounting instances where their actions were irrational or counterproductive. He also compares his group to the mafia, highlighting the latter’s respect and discipline, and expresses regret over his past actions.
➡ The speaker reflects on his past involvement with a club, expressing regret for trying to improve it and feeling betrayed by the members. He shares stories of violence and internal conflict within the group, and criticizes the club’s expansion and loss of brotherhood. He also discusses the legal troubles the club is facing, comparing it to the downfall of the mob due to the RICO Act. The conversation ends with the speaker planning to move to Texas and the possibility of meeting up with the listener in the future.
➡ The speaker discusses the differences between his own criminal organization and the Hell’s Angels, noting that his group had to pay a portion of their earnings to support their boss, unlike the Hell’s Angels. He also mentions that the Hell’s Angels are now being recognized as a criminal organization in places like Canada, Turkey, and Russia, which could lead to serious consequences for them. The speaker ends by expressing his understanding for those who leave such a life, as he and a man named Peewee did, and wishes everyone safety and health.

Mafia, Cosa Nostra. We’re known to be an illegal criminal organization. Hell’s Angels, you’re a club. You’re a bikers club. You guys are. You were big, but you weren’t spread out like we were as the Hell’s Angels. We were everywhere. You know, obviously, criminal activity did occur in the organization, but that’s not what the charter was about. That’s not what it was supposed to be about, but it happened. They said, peewee, you really want to be a Hell Angel? And I says, yeah. You willing to do what we’re going to ask you? And I was sitting there and I went, yeah.

And, you know, I thought they were going to ask me, right? You already know. Yeah, that’s what I thought was coming. They said, all right, here’s what we want you to do. And I was preparing myself, bro, and they said, we want you to take a lie detector test. I was like, what the hell? This is how old? Nonchalant. I did it, Michael. I stood up, I unzipped my vest, I took it off, I laid it on the table, and I said, you don’t believe in me. I don’t belong here anymore. And it was hard, bro, because I owned the clubhouse.

I was the president. It was my whole life. I was tatted up with this shit all over me. I’m just standing there thinking, wow, these guys don’t believe in me. This ain’t for me no more. Hey, everyone. Welcome to another sit down with Michael Francis. Hope everybody is doing well. All is very good, very blessed on this end, my friends. And as always, I give all the praise, honor, glory, and thanksgiving to our God for that. Hope everybody is doing well. We got another. We got a little rainy day out here in California, but that’s all cool.

But I got a special guest today. His name is Pee Wee Goldsmith, and he was once the president of the Hells Angels chapter in Las Vegas. And been there a long time. He wrote a book. He’s not in the Angels anymore, but he wrote a book, and it’s called the Biggest Lie Ever Told. And, you know, people ask me all the time about similarities between my former life Cosa Nostra and the Hells Angels. If you remember, at one time I interviewed George Christie, who was the president of a chapter out here in California. Very interesting guest.

People really enjoyed it. And people are always comparing the two organizations, and you know what? Really, they’re not alike at all. And some similarities, I guess, but basically, they’re two different organizations. They operate differently, and sometimes people get them Confused, like, hey, they’re pretty much the same concept. Not at all. So we’re going to talk to Pee Wee about it. And it’s interesting that he wrote a book, the Biggest Lie Ever Told. And he’s going to explain to you, I believe, without talking to him beforehand, he’s going to explain to you that, you know, we have an idealistic view of getting into that kind of a life, whether it be the Hells Angels, Mafia, Cosa Nostra, we feel that this is part of a brotherhood, or we’re part of a brotherhood where we have each other’s backs and everything is honorable and everything is respectful.

And obviously, like anything else, it’s not that way. And I want to make this clear. I’m not pointing these two organizations out as saying, hey, we expect it to be one thing, and then it’s another thing. It’s the same in corporate America. It’s the same in organizations that are legitimate. It’s the same sometimes in the Catholic Church. There’s backstabbing, there’s corruption. There’s all of that. It exists all over. It exists in government. Of course, we know that in a big way. The difference is that on the street, the consequences are a little bit more severe when you’re backstabbing and there’s no loyalty and, you know, you’re just doing things that you shouldn’t be doing when you’re supposed to have each other’s backs and being a brotherhood.

And we find that out along the way. You know, in my life, a lot of guys became informants and testified against other people. There was a lot of money deals going on. I saw people get killed that they shouldn’t have gotten killed. That I believe. And I’m sure there’s similar things in the Hell’s Angels. The difference, though, too, in the Hells Angels, it’s supposedly a legitimate organization. You have a charter. They’re all over the world. Their love of riding motorcycles is what, you know, captures them and what’s given them the motivation to come into that life with us In Cosa Nostra, it’s different.

Of course, I don’t have to get into that now, but I’m interested to talk with Pee Wee. I like to learn a little bit more about these groups. George Christie told me pretty much about it. But here’s a guy from, you know, also a president, different chapter, but he may have a different perspective. So we’ll talk to him and we’ll see how it goes. And without no further delay, my guest, Peewee. How you doing, my Friend, where are you? First of all, right now, I’m living in Arkansas. You know, after I got all out of that club shit, I just wanted to get away from it all, so I moved out here in hillbilly heaven, you know, and I’ve been here about eight years.

And the only bad thing is, you know, the older we get, and you know this yourself. If I need medical, it’s an hour, hour and a half, two hours to a medical place. You could be dead by then. I was recently in Arkansas. We’re doing. I got a wine business, and we were doing some business with Walmart, so I had to meet them down there. But I was in, you know, Walmart country down there. There’s that city. They. It’s. Everything is about Walmart there, so. Walmart. Yeah. But I want to. I want to get right into something.

Obviously, you have. You and I have some things in common. You were part of the Hells Angels. I was part of Cosa Nostra back there many, many years ago. And something that really struck me that I want to get into right away. And this is from your book, the Greatest Lie Ever Told. It’s a book about his experience, your experience as a member of the Hell’s Angels motorcycle club. Tell me what that biggest lie is. I want to see if I relate to that at all, having my experiences. The best way I can put it to you, Michael, is, you know, I was looking for a brotherhood when I joined it, and, you know, I opened my arms, I went in there, like, thinking, hey, these are, like, solid guys, brothers.

But there was so much backstabbing going on and just, what do you call, side deals? You know, they’re all talking shit. And I could just feel it wasn’t solid. It was too big. I would say more like even as big as, like, the Kosanova was, you guys are. You were big, but you weren’t spread out like we were as the Hell’s Angels. We were everywhere, you know, And I found more love and brotherhood in Europe than I did in the United States. It’s a lot of backstabbing, a lot of shit talking. You know, the tough guys who stand around tell you, hey, I do this, I’ll do that.

When a shit hits a fan and bullets are flying, they’re the first guys I see running. And I was just, you know, after so many years, like, close to 15 years, I was like, oh, man, I’m not seeing this. I’m not feeling it. The fake bullshit. If I saw you, Michael, and I said, hey, brother, gave you it’s all bullshit. You know what I mean? You know, my friends, I’ve seen quite a bit in my life. I know what it is to have money. I know what it is to have power. I know what it is to have control.

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And didn’t you established a chapter in Vegas, right? Were you the president? I think that’s what it’s called. 10 years. 10 years. And let me ask you, what do you think the reason was for this? Because, you know, I can certainly relate to that. When I got involved in the life, I had a very idealistic view of the life. You know, brotherhood was very attractive to me. You know, I grew up with that kind of feeling. It’s, hey, I got your back, you got mine. And, you know, I can say there were men that we acted that way with one another.

And then, of course, there’s a lot of politics that go on. And, you know, I saw people die for the wrong reasons. I saw people get in trouble for the wrong reasons, which I felt were the wrong reasons. So I don’t know, you know. You know, Pee Wee, I think it’s no matter what organization you’re in, whether it’s the government or corporate America or on the street, it’s all the same. It is, yeah. The difference with us is that, you know, the consequences were a little bit more severe than in corporate America or in the government or even in the Catholic Church.

You got backstabbing and stuff like that. So I think it just. It’s just part of life, but it is very disappointing. There’s no question about that. There’s one thing I was going to tell you, Michael. When I first got in a club, the guy who sponsored. The guy who sponsored me said this to me. So this clears it up pretty much. He put his arm around me, Michael, right after I made member, he said, peewee, you’re going to see a lot of things in this club that are going to break your heart. You just got to pull.

You got to fight through it. And I was standing like, what the hell are you talking about? And like you said, you know, then it comes out, you see it, you know, and it did break my heart. I kind of wish it would have been more. What do you think the reason for that is? Because if everybody comes in initially with that first idealistic feeling of, hey, you know, I’m joining this brotherhood, and we have each other’s backs, and we’re supposed to protect each other and care for each other. Where do you think the breakdown comes in and all of that? My feeling on that, Michael, I think it’s.

They got. They’re too big, you know, I mean, nobody really knows each other. Shit, I’d go to clubhouses and see a guy and, hey, man, I’m so and so, you know, My name’s Murray. I never saw you before. I’ve been a member 20 years. I’ve been in the club 10 years. I’ve never seen the guy. That’s a kind of. That’s the kind of shit, you know what I mean? It’s just like, people float. They get through it. And it just was. Like I said in my book, if you want to be in this club, a Long time.

Just sit at the clubhouse. Don’t go anywhere. Don’t be a shaker and a mover like I know you were. You were a big earner and stuff. It pisses people off in the jealousy, you know yourself. I was going around. I started charters. I was traveling the world. I just. Michael, I just wanted to make it a better club, you know? I wanted to make it the old school motorcycle club. And it got. I don’t know if this happened with you, but with the Angels, it got like real corporate, you know what I mean? They had a corporate meeting for the captains, for all the stuff.

Then you had your weekly meeting, your monthly meetings. Christ, man, there were so many meetings, you know, I don’t know if you guys are doing all that, but it just got to a point where it was like, man, let’s get back to just riding motorcycles. And I don’t even drink, bro. So, you know. But I’m just saying, let’s get back to the old beer drinking, riding motorcycles, you know, hitting on chicks, taking nice chicks out and shit like that. They become such an organization that is so limited to where everything you do is either bad, there’s never no good in it.

I try to do good things. I did a show with Larry Cable Guy called Larry the Cable Guy rides with the Hells Angels. And they came to me with it, and I said, yeah, I’ll do it. Now, here’s the thing, Michael. With us, you always had to go in front of like a. Like a committee of the whole club and say, hey, I want to do this. Is it cool? Oh, we don’t want you doing it. I didn’t ask them. I just did it. And then everybody said, hey, you’re going to get thrown out for that.

I said, then throw me out. They weren’t going to throw me out. And here’s the reason why I did it, bro. Larry the Cable Guy rides with the Hell’s Angels. Only in America. I thought, here’s a positive thing, right? You’re only taking Larry for a ride. He makes his jokes. It was positive, Michael. It was all positive. We’re riding it ain’t nothing about guns. It ain’t nothing about anybody getting killed, drugs, anything. It was all positive. But yet my. I was on the chopping block. What do you think the reason for that was? Why did they give you a reason why they didn’t want you to do it? I had to get permission from the club.

Well, you know, get permission. How do you get permission? If I say, hey, Michael, can I talk to you today, you know, Well, I got to call up and, like we’re doing right now, you know, I’d have to give permission. They were never allowed anyway. But I think it’s just that they want control of you all the time, bro. All the control. Well, let me ask you this. When. What was your expectation when you got. Because unlike Mafia Cosa Nostra, we’re known to be an illegal organization, right? We’re a criminal organization. Hell’s Angels is not, at least on the surface, not known to be that.

You’re a club. You’re a bikers club. But, you know, I’ve interviewed a few other people. You know, George Christie. I think you know George or, you know of him. I love George. He’s a very good friend of mine. He’s a great guy. And obviously, criminal activity did occur in the organization, but that’s not what the charter was about. That’s not what it was supposed to be about, but it happened. What. What was your expectation when you became a Hells Angel? You did it for what reason? I think I did it for. It was kind of like a power trip.

I. I’m not going to B.S. you. You know, it was a power trip because I was in a small club called the sinners for 10 years. Before that, I didn’t even know any Hell’s Angels, but then when I ran into them, you could just feel, Michael, the presence of them. You know what I’m saying? There’s all these other motorcycle clubs, and you look out and you see that patch, and you’re like, oh, yeah, man. That’s what I want to be. Top of the food chain all over the world. Yeah, it was. I mean, everywhere we went, we were like rock stars, you know? And people go, hey, do you ever see, like, ZZ Top? I’m like, sam, I partied on the bus with them.

You know, it just. It was. It was a different life. Just like, you know, you guys look at life. I mean, movie stars, everybody, they like to cling to the bad guys sometimes. And I got a lot of doors open for me. I really did, being a Hells angel, and I. And I still respect that. It was just the disappointment, I guess, from the jealousy. The. The. The jealousy was the worst part. But, you know, the. It was just. I don’t know. Nobody could be happy for you, bro. If you won the lotto, they’d expect you to, like, give some of the money to them.

It was all about the club. You know, there’s no individuals in the club. See, everybody thought Sonny was like the guy. All Sonny did was made up rules and stuff. He was no national president. Even at the end, he was just a member. He was just a plain old member. That’s all he was. Did you have a responsibility or an obligation to pay up to the club if you made any money, whether it be legally or illegally? No, no, no. They never did nothing like, you know, like, get a pan, like, stuff like that. And. And I’ll tell you, Michael, when I started to charter in Vegas, because, well, obviously, you know how Vegas is.

When I first went there, if you got caught with a marijuana seed on the floor of your car, you’re going to jail. So now, when I got there, I told the guys, listen, man, nobody’s slinging dope, nobody’s doing shit. Go get a job. Because, I mean, the first time we got pulled over, when I got there, I still had a California rocker on my back. And the cop told me, you guys aren’t coming here. Metro hated us. They said, you guys come here, you go into prison, we’re going to kill you. Obviously, they didn’t kill me, but they did send me to prison.

Yeah, you had a. You had a scrape. Would you get in a fight or something? And, I mean, I got in a fight, Michael, and I threw, like, eight punches. I was a boxer. I know how many punches I threw. And the guy pulled the knife out and I lit him up. And I couldn’t believe I was standing in front of a judge, man, you know, And I was being accused. I was a bad guy, 57 years old, Michael. They sent me to prison. It was an experience, you know, yourself, you know. Yeah. Was it a state prison in Vegas? Yeah, state prison.

High desert state prison out there in the middle of nowhere. Yep. Was that the only time you did? Yeah, it was 29 months. 29 months. That’s exactly the amount of time I spent in solitary. I did eight years and spent 29 months in solitary. But, wow, when you got. When you got. What was the initiation like, you know, in order to become a member, what did you have to go through? How long did it take you? What was your responsibility? What did you have to do? It’s kind of like how I tell people. It was like joining a college for.

What do you call? Fraternity? What do they call them? And, yeah, you know, hey, you got to watch their bikes while they’re all in there partying. You might have to run in there and change beer or bar 10. My word for it was like, stooge. And you’re pretty much A stooge, you know, till the day you make member. And. But there’s so many. There’s so many members, Michael, that take advantage of that. I stopped, like, you know, calling you up. Hey, Michael, get over here and paint my garage. What the hell does that have to do with the motorcycle club? Come on over here and cut my grass.

I seen guys do it. I seen guys doing it to people. And I’m telling you, honestly, when they would ask me, I’d say, cut your own freaking grass. You know, I didn’t. I didn’t think that had anything to do with the club. But if you called me up and said, hey, Peewee, I need some help, will you come over here? I’m working on my bike. Hey, I’m coming over. That. That’s club stuff. And I’ll help you, you know, with the bike. Whatever you need. Even with a car. I mean, I don’t even give a shit about that.

But, I mean, it’s. It’s. It’s. To me, it’s like being punked out, you know, Cut my grass. Hey, stop at the store, get me something to drink. Come on. It was bullshit. Soon as I became president, and I was president for 10 years here in Vegas. Never, Michael. Never did I ask anybody, do anything. And I stopped any member from doing that to another prospect. But are you, like, at the beck and call of any member? Any member can tell you, hey, come and do this or that. And you’d have to. You’d have to go along with it.

Yep. Yeah. How long did it take you before you earned your. Your stripes? Okay, the first, I had to do it twice, Michael. Twice, really? So the first time I did it, I moved from Wisconsin where there was no Hells Angels. I moved up to Minneapolis, and I did it 14 months I was there. You’re eligible for a vote after 12 months. But I moved up there. But I still living in Milwaukee, would drive up there every week and work a party, clean up, watch somebody do the shit they call hanging around. Because you got to remember, they didn’t know me.

You know, they’re like, hey, maybe he’s a cop. I had to take a lie detector test. Oh, yeah. I couldn’t believe it, you know? I know exactly. You’re going to know what I’m talking about. They said, peewee, you really want to be Hell’s Angel? And I says, yeah. You willing to do what we’re going to ask you? And I’ll sit in there. And I. And I went, yeah. And you know what I thought they’re going to ask me, right? You are. You already know. Yeah, that’s what I thought was coming. I really did. They said, all right, here’s what we want you to do.

And I was preparing myself, bro, and they said, we want you to take a lie detector test. I was like, what the hell? And they said, after the results of that, then we’ll come back and talk to you. So it cost me $300. They charged me. I had to go over, take it, you know? And they ask you, you know, are you a cop? Were you a cop? Do you want to be a cop? Are you gonna. Are you trying to hurt the Hell’s Angels in any way? Just the same stupid over and over again. Then they make you wait 10, 15 minutes, then they do it again to see if, you know, you still can compare.

So they called me up after that, and they said, I got some bad news for you. And I said, what’s that? They said, you passed the test then. Yeah. Then I became official hangaround. And no, Michael, I had to hang around 91, 92, and 93. Three years where they got to know me, and still I don’t. I can honestly tell you, bro, that I still think that they never, ever trust you. You know? I mean, that trust ain’t there like, it should be. Like, I’m sure in your organization, you know, you. You’re standing, thinking, hey, this guy’s got my back and all this stuff, and I’m up there willing to do whatever I had to do, Michael.

Whatever I had to do. Pat, who is a president of Minneapolis, his truck got bombed, right? Somebody put a bomb on it, and his truck got blown up. And I heard it. And when I came up there, that was during my hangaround part. And when I came up there, a week in the work worker party they had, he walks up to me and he says. He comes up, and I said to him, hey, pal, what’s up? And he goes, day, what the f. Do you know about my truck getting blown up? And he’s screaming in my face, see what I mean? I’m hanging around.

I’m trying to become what you are, but yet you’re actually accusing me of knowing something while your truck getting blown up. I just looked at him like, what the hell? And then after I made. After I made a prospect up there and I became a prospect. You’re going to love this one. Every time they’re partying in the clubhouse, he take his keys out and go, here, Peewee, go start my truck. Yeah, really, bro. I Was so happy today. Hey, bro. I was so happy today. He got the remote control to start his own truck, you know.

Yeah. Did they ever find out what happened? Who blew up his truck? They said allegedly the Outlaws did it, But I don’t know if they had any proof of that. But I was from Milwaukee, and that’s who’s there. What was the relation between the Outlaws and the Hells Angels back then? You guys didn’t like each other, right? It was bad. The first year. The first year when I was a Prospect, I started May 4, 1994. That year, Michael, there was three murders of hell’s Angels that I went to their funerals. Yeah. That were murdered. I mean, violently murdered.

And by the Outlaws, you believe? Oh, yeah, yeah, it was. And it was, you know, it was kind of like a big joke to him because at one of the funerals, I was standing by their front gate of the hotel and the pizza guy pulled up. The guy who was killed, his name was Jack Castle. They call him Four by. You know, he’s a little Four by four. And he got shot like eight times in the head. They blew his head right off. And when you go on gangland, when they have the Outlaw Hell’s angel feud, it shows him pulling his body out of the car by his arm.

His head’s gone. It was horrible. And when I was at the front gate, a pizza guy pulled up and got out. He had about eight pizzas in his hand. He said, I got a pizza delivery for Jack Castle. And this was. This was in Chicago. And then I guess they called up somebody that they had a number on inside the hotel, one of the members, they said, hey, enjoy your pizza, you maggots. You know, it was like, kid, bro. It’s such kid. And really, I really know. I never really knew what they were fighting about. Michael.

No. Was it just. Just because you’re. But Hell’s Angels were much bigger than the Outlaws. I mean, worldwide, right? Worldwide, yeah. Yeah. They didn’t have the presence that the Angels had. Right. Nobody did really, at that time. No. And how about now, Peewee? Do you follow it at all? Are they still as big as they once were? I don’t hear about him that much anymore. They’re actually. Michael, they’re getting bigger. I mean, I’ve seen pictures. Yeah, I’ve seen pictures where they. They’ve got them in Egypt, of all places. Egypt. And then I just seen. A month ago.

You’re in the. Would you hear this? A month ago, them all celebrating with their patches on all brand New in Croatia. You know who’s at war with Russia right now. Yeah. And we have, we have a charter in Moscow. I wonder how that’s working out. But I could tell you this, it could be. I could tell you this will give you a good laugh. I was visiting Turkey because we better. They have a charter in Turkey. And I was there visiting and I could see the ocean, you know, past the clubhouse. And I was like, wow, that’s beautiful.

And far, far away. I could see like just a peak of some land. And I said, hey man, what is that over there? One of the Turkish guys says, ah, that’s him. SOB Greeks. And I looked at him and he says, yeah, I don’t like the Greeks. So I guess the war’s still on, bro. You know, it’s crazy, man. We’re all one group, but yet we all hate each other. That’s what didn’t work. That’s what wasn’t working. So listen, the reason you become a member of the Hell’s Angels, basically two reasons. Number one, you gotta love to ride your motorcycles.

Number two, you’re part of a brotherhood, a club. It’s prestigious, you know, it feels good. Those are the two reasons that you get involved in Hell’s Angels, I guess. Number one, you got to really love to, to ride your motorcycle. I mean, I think that’s number one, right? You ride a lot, bro. You still have yours? No. You know what, people laugh when I tell them this. When I moved here, I got five acres. So I sold my motorcycle and bought a big old Kubota lawnmower that was 12,000 bucks. But yeah, you know, I don’t miss the riding, but I have bad neuropathy in my feet.

I can’t feel my feet, you know, so like when you put your feet down at a stop sign, you know, the bike was kind of rocking a little bit. And I don’t know, I’m just getting older and I thought, you know, I put, I put 19,000 miles on a motorcycle, brand new motorcycle, in four months. Wow. Yeah, we did a lot of riding, bro. A lot of riding. What was your two questions? Your highest point in that life and then your lowest point in that life. I think my high, I think my high, my highest in there was just like going to Sturgis, you know, and walking around and the people see you and they were like at, oh, there they are.

And you know me, I’m 6 foot 8, 320 pounds, bro. So when I’m walking around, you know, people are like, woo, that’s what I think of Hell’s angel is because I was a big giant man, you know? Yeah, stop. I could stop on the street, Michael. There’d be 40 people lined up to take a picture with me. Really? Never ever. I never ever turned anybody away. I didn’t say, get out of here, get lost. I was always cool. You know, I stood there, I took the stupid pictures with them. But I would say my lowest point was when, you know, we caught that beef with the fight at the wedding chapel.

And you can relate to this when we all got arrested for it. I never testified or I never took the stand, but, you know, when they had me in the room and they’re talking to me and shit, this is how I think, Michael. I’m thinking I’m a good leader. And everybody told me I was a good leader. So as a good leader, you kind of want to clear shit up, right? So the guy’s like, hey, we got you in here. And we’re in this little room. And he says, hey, why’d you beat that guy up? I say, hey, he pulled a knife on me.

It was self defense. Well, what I should. Hey. That’s all I’m saying. You know what? The lawyers fight this out. And then he said something to me about one of my other guys who was always beefing with another club. You know, it was just that, you know, big chest, pumping out, bumping into each other, kind of, I’m tougher than you kind of shit like that. He was a young kid. And they said, why you guys warn with these guys? I said, man, we ain’t warm with them. That’s just a young kid who got in the club.

He’s full of testosterone. He’s, you know, he’s proud of who he is. You guys are taking out of contact, you know, so forget about that. And they went, oh, okay. And then I told him about a respect thing where the cops gave us some huge respect in Sturgis. I said, you know, if you guys would ever do that with us, there’d be a different communication going on. You know, you treat us like shit and we don’t want to talk to you. And that’s all I really honestly said to him. So when I get done, the club’s like, oh, man, what the hell did he say? I was always a representative, like George Christie was, you know, somebody with a brain that could talk to the cops.

We’d have 80 cops outside in Sturgis with dogs, helicopters raiding us, and everybody run in. What do you think they said? Peewee Cops are here. Will you talk to them? Why don’t you talk to them? You’re better at it. Well, obviously I’m not, because when I talk to them, they’re like, oh, yeah, you really effed up on talking to those guys and stuff. So my lowest point was, I think, that they didn’t believe in me anymore, Michael. So I was sitting at the table as the president, and I said, hey, there’s 12 guys here. And I said, you guys don’t believe in me anymore? And they all just sat there.

Well, you know, you should. I said, listen, give me a show of hands, man. How many people in here think I disrespected this club that I gave my whole life to? Did everything just like you? Tell me how many in here believe I messed up? Seven of them. Raise your hand. Seven out of 12. This is how nonchalant I did it, Michael. I stood up, I unzipped my vest, I took it off, I laid it on the table, and I said, well, then I don’t belong here anymore. You don’t believe in me? I don’t belong here anymore.

And it was hard, bro, because I owned the clubhouse. I was the president. It was my whole life. You know, I was tatted up with this all over me, you know? And I’m just standing there thinking, wow, these guys don’t believe in me. This ain’t for me no more. And I laid it down. They actually looked at me and said, are you kidding? I wasn’t kidding. I said, you guys can keep the clubhouse. Just keep paying the bills and shit, and it’s yours. And as I walked out, and I’m not ashamed to tell you this, as I walked out and had to go down the stairs out the front of my bike and leave, bro, I had tears in my eyes, you know, because I left something I really loved.

But I could. I could feel the disrespect, like, in younger guys coming in. Hey, man, what do you think these guys would talk shit to you? I was already in my 50s when I was dealing with these guys, and I just knock them out. I’ve been a boxer since I was 11, so it was always bing, bing, bing. It was over, you know, but it was, like constant shit like that. But my low was walking out that day and quitting and feeling like the club didn’t believe in me. Then the worst of the worst comes out.

They run around, tell everybody, peewee’s a rat. Peewee ratting on us. Well, here’s all I said, Michael. I said, well, pull up my paperwork and tell me whose name. I. I never said a name about anybody. I said, tell me whose name. Because if I rat and I. I had to give you a name or telling a person like, hey, Michael did this, Michael did that. I’m telling anybody. So they didn’t want us. Anybody talking to me. So they told everybody I was a rat. They told all. Every. All these, you know, people are like. I’m trying to say, like the supporters and shit like that.

They start spreading the shit around. Well, then after a while, after I did my time and I got out of prison, they realized I really wasn’t the rat they thought I was. Then they had a meeting on it, and they said, we’re gonna just leave them out. I’m becoming of a Hell’s angel because I talked to the cops. You know what? I’m good with that, Michael. I don’t even give a shit. But I thought they expected you to talk to the cops. Not to say anything wrong, but they had to have somebody to talk to them, and then they considered that being a rat, right? But see, you’re an intelligent man, and you understand that.

So picture this, Michael. We’re riding down the road on motorcycles, right? We get pulled over for speeding, and the guy next to me says, hey, don’t say nothing. These cops. How long do you think that was going to last, Michael? We just sit there on the bikes and we don’t say nothing. I would say that pretty soon the paddy wagons be pulling up and they’d be taking all us. You got to talk, you got to open your mouth. Somebody’s got to be intelligent enough to say, hey, what do you want? You know, oh, you want my license? Shit like that.

That’s all you got to say? This guy’s telling me, don’t say a word to him. And then when I saw a fight one time where this chick came over, all spun out. She was asking us for drugs and shit, and I told her to beat it. And she picked a chair up and threw it at me. And I grabbed a chair and threw it back and hit her with it. And she went down. I didn’t see. I didn’t see him. Across the street, Michael, there was like seven cop cars. They come whipping over, and they said, we saw the whole thing.

But when they come whipping over with the lights on, one of the other members says to me, run in your room and lock the door now. I mean, really, bro, they would have caved the door and came and got me. She threw the chair at me. She Threw the chair at me. I threw it back and I hit the bitch, you know, and she went down. Cops saw it. The cop even said to me, hey, don’t worry about it. We’re getting her out of here. That was the end of it. But it’s just a stupidity of some of these individual members is just run and hide in the room.

I never heard anything so stupid. Yeah, that’s. Let me ask you, when you were the president of the charter in Vegas, is there any other, how could I put it? Is there any other levels there? In other words, you’re the president. Is everybody else just equal? Like in our life, we have soldiers, we have copper regime, we have consiglieri underboss and the boss in your life. That’s where, that’s where I wish we would have been. So it was just, you’re the president. Everybody else was just equal. Right? And the. Yeah, and the shitty thing about it, and I say this, and I know a lot of people get pissed off at me about it, but actually they need, like you said, like a regiment.

Your soldiers, you know, your caples. You see, you really need that, bro. Because if I wanted a roof put on the clubhouse, Michael, I had to say, hey, we need your roof. It’s leaking. Let’s take a vote about putting a new roof on. All of a sudden, if you get outvoted. Why would you get out vote if you need a roof, if you had, like you said, hey, man, we’re just going to put a new roof on here. Just do it. Just do what you got to do. But I tell everybody, you can call it a dictatorship, but it works like, you know, I’ve seen enough movies, okay? You know, in your lifestyle to where, you know, when the one guy says it, you know, Big Paul, he says this.

That’s the way it is. That’s the way it goes. And I like that. I really admire that. And that’s the way it should work, but adult. And let me ask you this, because you were a Teamster at one time, right? You were part of the union. Oh, yeah, I retired. I retired from the Teamsters. Okay, so while you were working, I mean, while you were a Hell’s angel, you also had to have a job, right? Because you had to support yourself as most of the guys do, they have day jobs. Yeah, I made my guys do it, Mike.

I, I didn’t want any dope slinging. Like I told you, I, I. Because, you know, one guy, and, you know, this one guy gets, one guy gets caught selling dope we’re all dopers, you know, I mean, we’re all the same, you know, just like these guys are mob guys, you know, they’re all mob guys are bad, you know, nobody really knows. Doesn’t know the real you. You know, I was going to say, how often were you required to show up, you know, as an angel and be with the guys? Were you required to be there every day? Once a week.

How often? Well, once a week we had a meeting, which, you know, I mean, I don’t know why we have to have a meeting every week. And then after your meetings at your charter, you know, at your clubhouse, then they would have what they call om an officer meeting. And then we’d have to go to that. It was always San Bernardino or Oakland, and that’s, you know, and that’s where we’d have to go for those meetings. And. And then. Then, you know, you got to sit there and tell them about everything that’s going on in your charter.

Who left, who you took in, who’s a piece of shit. I mean, it just goes on and on. And the biggest thing with the Angels, and I don’t know if this happened like in your organization, but I can’t see it. Seriously, I can’t see it happening. Maybe little. Little scuffles on the side. What the hell is Angels? Every party, Michael, I went to, every event, I went to fights. Guys brawling, beating each other up over the stupidest. It was just, you know, you look and you’re going, we’re not brothers. You mean fighting among each other? Oh, yeah, bro.

You ain’t got a clue. And worse. Let’s leave it at that. We never did that. Because you. If you hit another made man, you’re dead. You couldn’t never raise your hand. If another made man raised his hand to a mate, he’s dead. That’s immediate death. I didn’t have any of that. Yeah, it worked. You had to be respectful to one, I’m sure. Yeah. On the surface, you had to be. I’ll tell you how. How far it went. If we had a meeting, we had a sit down. We called it. We were discussing whether it be a business dispute, maybe saving somebody’s life.

And I’m sitting down. I’m a maid guy took the oath. The other maid guy took the oath. If he’s lying through his teeth and I call him a liar, I lose the argument. We had to be respectful. We had to figure it out. Yeah, it was none of that. It was allegedly all built on respect against one another. Now, you talk behind somebody’s back, that’s one thing. But to their face, you can’t call the person a liar. You can’t cuss them out. You had to be respectful in that regard. I guess it’s a good thing, you know, at least we tried to conduct ourself.

There was a lot of backstabbing, too. Don’t get me wrong, you know, you saw a lot of that. But at least on the surface, you had to be a certain way. They tried to keep order and discipline and respect in that regard. And I think that’s one of the reasons why we lasted so long. You know, we. Look, when I look back, Pee Wee, when you think about it, Cosa Nostra in America, we had a lot of power and control for 100 years. It wasn’t until they started with all the RICO stuff in the mid-80s that they started destroying us.

But before that, we had it going on for quite some time. But, you know, listen, when you look back, I mean, I don’t know about you, and I’m going to ask you this. You know, people ask me all the time, michael, do you have regrets? And I said, of course I do. You know, in my call, you know, a very dear friend of mine, you know, got killed and I couldn’t save him. And it’s heavy on my heart, even 35 years later. And you have certain regrets from things that you did in that life. You can’t change it, but they’re there.

I ask you the same thing. Any regrets now that you’re, you know, you’ve taken care of yourself, you’re out of that life, you’re older, you can look back and say, hey, you know, I regret that I did this, or I’m okay with this. Any regrets? No, I can’t say there was any regrets. I think my mistake. My mistake, Michael, was I kept thinking I could make things better, you know, I mean, improve the club. And that’s why I said, I went to Vegas. I started two charters there, and I opened up a shop in Sturgis where everybody hung out.

I made a big, huge clubhouse there. Everything I did. And, you know, at the end, those guys burned me for the clubhouse in Sturgis to pay me for it, because I had 80 grand aids to smoke weed for. So, I mean, I could go on and on. That’s my regret, you know, over playing the game, you know, because I wasn’t getting back in return when I was supposed to. And staying and going back to what you said before. If we were in a Room, Michael. And the guy said, hey, Michael, you’re a liar. Right away, the two guys would stand up and you call me a liar.

Boom. It was on right there in the room. Everybody just standing and watch you. Oh, yeah, all the time, bro. And then, you know, they like the nitrous. You know, the. The nitrous tanks. And they were going on at a party, and the guy’s doing them. I swear to you, Michael, this is the shit you see. You know, I’m just standing off to the side. You’re waiting to go up there. Oh, yeah, throw up your balloon. You know, you’re gonna. You’re gonna get that Dennis buzz, you know, where you hear that airplane flying in your head.

And I seen the guys walk up to fill up their balloon, and they look at the guy standing by the tank, and it’s just like this. What the f. You looking at? And all of a sudden, you know, that guy goes, what? Lets it go boom, boom, boom, boom. And they’re going at it. Everybody else just stands around, you know, fill up their blues like nothing’s happening. These two guys are rolling around on fort, beating each other’s heads in. Wow. I’ve seen a guy walk in while a guy was playing and smack him in the head with a baseball bat.

Come on, bro. You just told me nobody, like, would do that shit in your organization. And that’s why I think the Angels have lost. Lost it. They. They don’t have that love, that brotherhood thing, and they need to get back to that. And they think by that growing bigger. Growing bigger is the worst, bro, because they don’t know each other half the shit. I remember going to Turkey when they started Turkey, and I asked those guys, Mike, I said, we’re sitting at the table, and I said, are you guys Muslims? And they just paused. They didn’t say nothing, bro.

They just looked at me, and the guy says, why, peewee? Does that make a difference? I said, yeah, it does. I said, because if you guys are Muslim, it’s going to make us an international, what do you call, criminal organization. And I said, it’s going to get real ugly, and we’re not going to be able to travel like I travel all over the world. And I says, we’re not going to be able to travel anymore if you guys are mindful. I can see that in the cards. I really can. And they said, no, we’re Christians. And right after I quit the club, Mike, I.

I went online. I was looking, and in. In. In the death head, you know, the patch that we wore. I have like one on my hand, like, right. I got this one right here. It’s wrong hand. Let me see. Let me get it on the. There. I can’t get it on there. But anyway, there’s like a little wheel, you know, by the bonnet where the. Where the wing goes in the back. They had the half moon and the star right in there. That’s the Muslim flag, you know what I mean? Yeah. And now they got Egypt.

Those guys are all Muslims. So this is what I just heard, and I’m just telling you, it’s two months ago when m Angel shot those vagos on the highway in Las Vegas. The Supreme Court declared them a criminal organization in Nevada. Really? Yeah. Took their copyrights away and all that stuff. This is what I heard before I talk to you. I wanted to verify it. And I just called a couple people and they said, no, no, it’s true, it’s true. In Canada, they’re a criminal organization. They don’t want to let them in here. They will never let no Hells Angels in Canada.

Now Germany’s doing it. Yeah, now Germany’s doing it. Hey, you said it yourself, Michael. Soon as that RICO came in and it’s in there now, now they’re using it against the Angels. It’s only a matter of time, bro. People say, oh, look what happened to mob. They’re gone. Wiped them out. Wipe them out. I knew guys in Vegas, I go hang out at the restaurants, talk to them and stuff. You know, they’re very quiet, they keep to themselves. I’ll tell you what, they showed me a lot of love. They really did, Michael. When I went to prison, they threw a party for me at one of the clubs.

I Italian American club. And they raised 6,800 bucks for me. So, you know, I was doing pretty good in prison. Yeah. Well, I could tell you we always. We got along with the Angels. We didn’t have any. Any argument. I had one run in with the Outlaws. Not really a run in. I had a club out in Long island and they came in there one night, acted real stupid and shot up the cigarette machine that we had. And so we, we took care of it. I got to tell you that. I’m going to leave it at that.

You know, we took care of it the next day, but never had a problem with the Angels. You know, they were always respectful. I met a couple of guys in prison too, like that. We got along, never had any issues. And of course, Christy, you know, I love George. He’s a really good guy. But He’s a good speaker. Yeah, he’s a good speaker, Peewee. I gotta tell you, it was a very enjoyable conversation. I think a lot of people don’t understand. They look at the Hells Angels, they look at my former life, and they don’t know the differences.

And it’s very interesting to them to see, you know, the differences in two organizations like that. But we’ve both been around a long time. You know, I don’t know how much longer our guys are going to be around because it’s. They really wreaked havoc on us in the mid-80s with that Rico act, man. It put a lot of guys away. A lot of guys went to jail. A lot of guys turned informants. You know, it really did damage. And if they start using that with the Angels, trust me, that’s a devastating law. It’s very hard to defend, very expensive to defend.

And the, you know, the sentences and the forfeiture clauses, they kill you. They just kill you. So hopefully it doesn’t put a lot of hurt on you guys, on your former guys, I should say. Listen, pleasure. Yeah, really pleasure talking to you. And, you know, I’ll tell people about your book, the Greatest Lie Ever Told. I think we agree on a lot of things, you know, that we just talked about. And I wish you the best, my friend. Hey, I appreciate it, Michael. And you know what? Tell your. I forget the girl’s name who just called me.

Tell her, send me an address stuff. I’d love to send you a book. I’ll sign a book and send it to you. You know, Absolutely. And I’ll do the same. I’ll do the same for you. Appreciate it. Around California. Get in touch with Lisa. Come and see me. All right, I’ll do that. Yeah. If I visit Australia, I’ll be visiting Walmart. What’s that I said? Remember I told you I have my house up for sale right now? As soon as I sell my house, I’m moving over by Fort Worth, Texas. I’m a little over there by Texas.

I go to Texas quite a bit. I got a lot of friends there. So I’m back and forth. I’ll be there in about three weeks for a couple of things, but I’m back and forth there. So just staying. Maybe we’ll sit down, we’ll have a beer. We’ll have a glass of Franz east wine or something like that, and we’ll just. Shoot. I’ll do that. All right, brother. All right. God bless. All right. Yes, same. God bless you. Bye bye now. All Right. Bye. Well, there you have it. You know, some surprising things that, you know, one thing, one big difference is that he said the Hells Angels brawl among each other all the time, and they actually fist fight.

And as I said in the interview, you know, in our life, you couldn’t do that. You couldn’t even call another made guy a liar. If you did, you had serious consequences. So, you know, we had a level of respect, at least on the surface, that we had to abide by. Different in that life, different in the Hell’s Angels, you know. And what’s also kind of strange to me, you didn’t have to pay up any money. How does the organization even survive? You don’t pay dues. There’s no money that you earn. You know, in our life, we had to give up a perspective percentage of our earnings when we did things on the street, you know, to support the organization in a way.

Even though every guy, you know, was every man for himself, just about, you still had to support, you know, the boss of the organization. So a lot of differences, you know. And like Peewee said, it looks like now in certain places, like Canada, Turkey, other places that the Hells Angels now are being marked as a criminal organization, from what I understand. He said, you can’t have Hells Angels in Canada, even though now they’re in Turkey and in Russia and, you know, in different places in the world, you know, they’re starting to mark them as a criminal organization.

If they start using the RICO act against them, that’s going to really put a dent in them, no doubt about it. But anyway, hope you enjoyed it. You know, he seems like a nice guy, Peewee. He left the life he was, disillusioned as it seems, with no things that went on there. And, look, I get it, you know. You know, I guess we both came out with the same feeling in a certain respect. But, hey, that’s just how it goes, people. You’re on the street. You got to expect certain things, and that’s how things turn out.

So that’s it for today, my friends. How do I always leave you? Same way. Never going to change. Be safe, be healthy. God bless each and every one of you. God bless your neighborhoods, your communities, all those that you love. And yes, God bless America. We’ll see you next time. Take care, Sa.
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