Zizian Cult w/ Cameron Harman @Whatsunderthemask | Paranoid American Podcast 109

➡ The Paranoid American podcast, launched in 2012, explores hidden truths and mysteries of our world, from secret societies to forbidden technology. The podcast also discusses a new cult called the Zizian Cult, founded by a person named Ziz Lasota, who was previously part of a group called the Rationalists. The Zizian Cult, whose members are all transgender, holds extreme beliefs such as advocating for retroactive justice for meat-eaters. The podcast also features a guest, Cameron Harmon, a professional psychologist who discusses his experiences and research in criminal psychology and cults.
➡ The text discusses a group led by Ziz Lasota, who believed that being trans allowed people to fully utilize their brains. The group practiced techniques like uni-hemispheric sleeping, where one side of the brain sleeps while the other stays awake. However, Ziz’s group faced legal troubles due to their actions, including attempted murder and squatting. The group primarily recruited emotionally and psychologically vulnerable individuals, many of whom were on the autism spectrum.
➡ The text discusses the idea of people turning to alternative ideologies, such as Satanism or rationalism, after feeling betrayed by their religious upbringing. It suggests that people often seek new philosophies to replace the beliefs they grew up with. The text also discusses the challenges of maintaining unity in groups like Antifa, where the only commonality is a dislike for structure or rules. Lastly, it touches on the extremism often found in new religious or political groups, where every member must be fully committed to the cause.
➡ This text discusses how groups, such as cults or startups, often start with passionate founders, but as they grow, these founders may be pushed out as their extreme ideas can deter new members or disrupt the status quo. The text also explores how these groups can become dangerous if they don’t manage their growth and attract unstable individuals. It suggests that the timing and public perception of a group can greatly affect its success or failure. Lastly, it touches on the topic of online trolling and its connection to antisocial behavior.
➡ The text discusses the concept of ‘griefing’ in gaming, where players derive enjoyment from causing frustration to others by exploiting game loopholes. It also mentions a research project aimed at creating a new assessment to measure trolling, as the current one is inadequate. The author, who has written a book and hosts a podcast titled ‘What’s Under the Mask’, invites interested individuals to contact him. The text ends with a promotion for a comic about Stanley Kubrick directing the Apollo space missions and a song.
➡ A group led by Ziz Lasoda, who was part of the rationalist community in California, turned violent, resulting in deaths of both group members and others. The group, often referred to as a cult, had extreme views on topics like veganism and AI safety. Ziz Lasoda was recently apprehended, and more information about the group’s activities is expected to emerge during the trials. The group’s philosophy, influenced by rationalism, encouraged members to evade capture at all costs, leading to violent confrontations.
➡ The Zizian cult believes in the concept of dual personalities, encouraging members to adopt new identities and make significant lifestyle changes, including becoming vegan. The cult targets transgender individuals, who are often financially vulnerable and already creating new identities. The cult’s philosophy is based on the writings of Jeremy Bentham, an extreme vegan, and the concept of Functional Decision Theory, which justifies non-surrender behavior. The cult’s actions have resulted in violent confrontations, raising concerns about the potential for more cults to emerge from current political and social trends.
➡ The text discusses a group similar to the Manson Family, bound by a shared transgender identity and a violent philosophy. They were interested in AI and the concept of Roscoe’s Basilisk, which suggests a future AI could punish those who hindered its progress. The group also explored self-programming of alternate identities, similar to MK Ultra techniques, and sleep deprivation as a means of making the brain more open to suggestion. The text suggests these practices could lead to dangerous outcomes if unchecked.
➡ The text discusses Dr. Ewan Cameron’s controversial methods of inducing memory loss and personality changes in patients, often through sensory deprivation and induced comas. It also explores a technique called uni-hemispheric sleep, which involves keeping one eye open while the other sleeps, supposedly allowing one to understand different aspects of their personality. However, the text suggests this technique may actually disrupt and dysregulate individuals, making them more susceptible to suggestion. The discussion also touches on cult leaders and their manipulation tactics, including the use of such techniques to control followers.
➡ The text discusses the case of Ted Kaczynski, who was part of a study on how people react to constant negative feedback, which may have influenced his anti-technology stance. It also mentions the Zizian cult, a group with similar anti-establishment views, and speculates on possible connections with other extremist groups like Antifa. The text suggests that intelligence agencies may be trying to infiltrate these groups, and raises questions about the future of such extremist ideologies.
➡ The text discusses the possibility of intelligence agencies infiltrating online chat rooms to influence people’s thoughts and actions. It also speculates that members of extremist groups might join these agencies to gain power and normalize their activities. The text further suggests that these agencies could use the strategies of these groups to their advantage, potentially creating more effective versions of these groups. Lastly, it raises questions about the origins and motivations of these groups and their leaders.
➡ The text discusses how people can be drawn into cult-like groups due to personal motivations and interests. It also explores how these groups can influence individuals to adopt extreme ideologies, often without fully understanding them. The text suggests that this process can be slow and subtle, making it difficult to recognize. It also highlights the importance of critical thinking and understanding the motivations behind actions and beliefs.
➡ This text discusses how people often resist questioning their beliefs, especially when these beliefs are deeply ingrained in their identity. It highlights how debates can become heated and personal attacks, known as ad hominem fallacies, are often used instead of logical arguments. The text also suggests that these tactics can be effective in swaying public opinion, especially in emotionally charged situations. Lastly, it explores the potential for AI to spread radical ideologies, suggesting that we might see extremist groups led by AI in the future.

You turn into a trans dolphin and you figure out how to do this uni hemispheric sleep schedule. Once you’ve unlocked that, could you transition back into your birth gender? Good evening, listeners, brave navigators of the enigmatic and the concealed. Have you ever felt the pull of the unanswered, the allure of the mysteries that shroud our existence? For more than a decade, a unique comic publisher has dared to dive into these mysteries. Unafraid of the secrets they might uncover. This audacious entity is Paranoid America. Welcome to the mystifying universe of the Paranoid American podcast. Launched in the year 2012, Paranoid American has been on a mission to decipher the encrypted secrets of our world.

From the unnerving enigma of MK Ultra mind control, to the clandestine assemblies of secret societies, from the awe inspiring frontiers of forbidden technology to the arcane patterns of occult symbols in our very own pop culture, they have committed to unveiling the concealed realities that lie just beneath the surface. Join us as we navigate these intricate landscapes, decoding the hidden scripts of our society and challenging the accepted perceptions of reality. Folks, I’ve got a big problem on my hands. There’s a company called Paranoid American making all these funny memes and comics. Now, I’m a fair guy. I believe in free speech as long as it doesn’t cross the line.

And if these AI generated memes dare to make fun of me, they’re crossing the line. This is your expedition into the realm of the extraordinary, the secret, the shrouded. Come with us as we sift through the world’s grand mysteries, question the standardized narratives, and brave the cryptic labyrinth of the concealed truth. So strap yourselves in, broaden your horizons, and steel yourselves for a voyage into the enigmatic heart of the Paranoid American podcast, where each story, every image, every revelation brings us one step closer to the elusive truth. Today, we’re gonna talk about a new cult on the scene.

Whether or not it’s worthy of us joining, I’m interested. I want to know what the rules are. What are the initiations? Like, what do I have to do to join this cult? How do you even pronounce this cult? And I’m joined once again by Cameron Harmon, who is basically the most professional psychologist that I can talk to. So I appreciate you being here again, man. Thank you for coming on for your second appearance, hopefully the second of many more, but we’re going to get into the zizzying, call up front, just tell people where to find you, do all your plugs, all that stuff.

Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me on again. It’s good to be back. Yeah. If you’re interested, I just had a book come out this year called what’s under the Mask? And you can find that on Amazon. The book basically discusses dark psychology, criminal psychology. This was during my experiences in undergrad in psychology. I got to work in a jail for a while. I’m now in graduate school for clinical mental health counseling. Just for those of you aware of, like, my background and the things that I’m doing, I have an interest in criminal psychology, cults, serial killers, antisocial behavior, and I have conducted some research in those backgrounds.

So that’s kind of who I am and where I come from. And we’re going to be talking about the Zizian Cult today. So it’s, it is pretty fresh. It’s a couple years old. But the thing where, the place where we should start is that for your audience, and I don’t know about. For you, if you remember, on inauguration, Trump’s inauguration, there was a border patrol agent who was killed. Do you remember that? Vaguely. It was J Sick. Those damn J Sixers, I heard. No, yeah, yeah, exactly. It was actually the Zizian Cult. A couple of their members were responsible for that.

And the. I’ve looked just the tiniest little bit into this and the guy was mentioning before we started recording, I got confused almost immediately. And I’m used to reading these weird conspiracy theories where you kind of jump around in these different events, but this one almost felt like it’s an. And started as an anti Trump cult in a way. And the reason that they might have attacked a border officer is because they disagree with Apollo. I know. Am I putting that onto it without knowing enough about it, or is this like political ideologues that are acting out in various ways? This is a great segue into the beginning of where this starts.

So the founding member, which is their name, is Ziz Lasota, which I do not believe is their actual name. Ziz Lasota is the person who’s kind of founded this group. But the, the deal here is that Zizzle Soda started out in a group called the Rationalists. This is a sect. This is a group in California, as a matter of fact. Our boy Sam Bankman Fried, if you remember him, who’s now hanging out with Diddy in his prison cell. Sam Bankman Fried, the crypto guy, he started out in the Rationalist group in California and the Rationalists themselves.

Let me go ahead and pull up. I’ve got some stuff here that I wanted to use as background so that I’m not just talking out of my ass. But yeah, please. The rationalists, they’re their own group. And if you look into the rationalists, they themselves, in my opinion, are a little culty. So let me give you a little Wikipedia description of the Rationalists. They describe themselves as an online forum and community aimed at improving human reasoning, rationality and decision making with the goal of helping its users hold more accurate beliefs and achieve their personal objectives. The first, the best known posts of Less Wrong are the sequence sequester.

Oh, gosh, man, I don’t even know how to pronounce that. A series of essays which aim to describe how to avoid the typical failure modes of human reasoning with the goal of improving decision making and the. And the evaluation of evidence. Okay, all of that sounds great on paper, but when you get down to the nitty gritty of the rationalists, basically anything that they deem as rational is what you should do. So if that means that you have to sacrifice a million people because they’re infected with something, if you have to kill a million people to create a new vaccine or something to that effect, then that’s the rational thing to do.

In Sam Bankman Fried’s case. Now, and I’m only speculating, but this is what it seems like to me for your audience, if they don’t remember, Sam Bankman Fried was basically the crypto guy that scammed people out of billions of dollars. In my mind, him being a rationalist, he assumed that stealing that money was the rational thing to do because then when he has this money and this power, he could do things to better the world in the ways that he sees fit. Ziz Lasota was a part of that group, but eventually is removed from the group, from being too extreme.

Within the rationalist group. They were discussing things like veganism and AI safety protocols, talking about the advancement of AI. How can we, you know, how can we make it and keep it safe for humanity? But again, like I said, Ziz Lasota eventually becomes so extreme that she is removed. She. They are removed from the group because of their beliefs. And I’ll just give you like a little glimpse into like one of the beliefs that deemed her extreme. They believe, Zizzle Soda believe that it’s not just enough to be vegan. They believe that there needed to be retroactive justice for people who eat meat.

And there’s actually a document available online that people can read about this where there’s a, like a chat, screenshot from a chat that they took from somewhere, probably discord and zizzle. Sota talks about that there would need to be retroactive justice after this like quote unquote revolution. There would need to be justice for the people who eat meat and meaning that they should be prosecuted through Nuremberg style trials for anyone who ate meat. And just an FYI for everybody listening, that is the majority of the people on this planet who eat me. So that would be a lot of people to be prosecuted in a Nuremberg style trial.

So already, if, if you can’t already pick up on this, the beliefs that these people had were pretty extreme. Is, is this the pronoun or is this the name? Ziz is the name. Now she. They. Ziz. It almost sounds like this could have just been a pronoun here. Correct. And for all I know it could be. It doesn’t. From my understanding, it is not a current pronoun. Now the thing to bring up is that all of the members involved in this is called were transgender. And there was a very specific reason for that. Is it, was it a requirement? Like if they just say that I wanted to join the Zizzy and cult today, do I have to start transitioning or would I just be like the odd man out? Literally? No, you.

So you could probably join and there are some kind of like background checks I’m assuming that ZIZ was doing on their individuals, but really Ziz was recruiting people that were trans and there’s this whole other dynamic about what they were doing. And I’ve got this document here pulled up. As a matter of fact, if you’re, if you want it afterwards, I will send this to you because it’s really good to, to look at this document for your. Anybody that’s interested in it? Yeah, I’ll link it in the description. Perfect. Yeah, here we go. I got this thing pulled up.

So basically you could join, but most likely it would be that you were recruited by ZIS because you were trans. And there’s this. One of the heaviest details in this whole ideology is that there are multiple personalities living within every person. So there’s like a heavy emphasis on hemispheres in the brain left and right. And Zizla Soda would tell the members that basically your gender and your personality resided within these hemispheres. And they would even do techniques like uni hemispheric sleeping techniques. This. Now again, I don’t, I don’t know if this even works or not, but this is something that’s reported from this cult.

They would train one side of the brain to go to sleep while the Other was awake. And this was another kind of like programming technique. This is kind of sounds like some MK Ultra stuff, but I don’t know if it works or not. It sounds a little nonsensical just right off the cuff because yes, dolphins do that. But the reason dolphins can do is because, and this is oversimplification is probably wrong, but that the two hemispheres of their brain are severed in a way that ours are not. Ours are too interconnected to actually do that unless you physically sever them, in which case other things happen to your personality.

But there’s been the studies where yes come down version of being able to draw two different letters or, or spell out a word and do math on two different hands holding pens at the same time. Usually most people can’t do that unless you’ve got, you know, unless you’re basically a superhero or a mutant and you should be locked up. Certainly yes, it, when I read it and when you read this document that I’m talking about, it does sound nonsensical. The general idea is that basically you close one eye and then they train the other side. The eye that’s open, they try to train the side that is has an awareness to it.

And what they say is that what can happen is during this process, the side of the body where the eye is closed will start to feel numb and start to feel like it’s going to sleep, almost like a stroke. But this is a technique that apparently they use to, to bring members into the group. And through this process they talk about how the hemisphere, you know, again, it’s just, it’s just silly, but basically talking about how one side of the hemisphere is like your good side or your bad side or this is a super masculine side, this is a super feminine side.

But Liz Ziz Lasoda believed that humans had to be trans to be able to unlock all parts of their brain and to be able to use their brain to 100% capacity. I wonder, I mean, I’m going to have so many questions where you are not ultimately the one that can answer this because we don’t have soda here. Right. But if you were to transition and you somehow miraculously turned into a dolphin. This almost sounds like a South park episode. But you, you turn into a trans dolphin and you figure out how to do this uni hemispheric sleep schedule.

Once you’ve unlocked that, could you transition back into your birth gender and still remain this like level of I guess heightened, you know, elevated consciousness? Or is that such, like, I understand maybe that’s part of the ticket for entry. Like you, you already have to disrupt your relationship with gender in modern society. But once you’ve done that, can you go back or did you lose your superpowers? That’s a good question. I don’t know that I am certified to answer that question. I’ve got Ziz that I’m about to pull this up onto the. Oh, they actually, they just disconnected.

I’m sorry about that, everybody that they did. Yeah, they’re getting raided currently, which is a funny segue into a part about how Ziz was caught. Ziz was actually caught because back in. Let me go look this up again. Make sure I’m, make sure I’m getting this correct. Ziz actually faked their death back in. I think it’s like 2019 or 2021 of those years, they faked their death and during that time, so it’s like a two year period. So, okay, I think it was actually in 2022, they faked their death. So they had a couple of boats and their whole part of their philosophy was that they were going to live on these boats entirely and they were going to travel from Alaska down to California and kind of live in the bays.

But the problem was that their boats were kind of crappy and needed a lot of upkeep. And there was a, there’s a lot of fees involved with living on boats like that, trying to go from port to port. And so it was causing them to go bankrupt, which kind of led to a spiraling out of Ziz. Nevertheless, in that, in those years, in like, like I said, It’s 2022, I believe there was a boating accident where Ziz Lasota died. And there was even an obituary talking about how Ziz died. Now, one of the members named Ophelia, their apartment was raided.

Ophelia was a student here on a visa, no surprise from Germany. And they were also trans. But when Ophelia was being raided by the police, Ziz Lasoto was in that apartment and they had no idea who this person was. They were combative, they were resisting arrest. And when they were arrested, they actually. A good report, whether you like this person or not. Andy Ngo on Twitter, he did a pretty extensive deep dive on this cult. So if you want more details, go to Twitter and look up his, his profile. There’s some good reporting there. But there’s literally a picture of Ziz Lasota, them having to hold their face up because they were pretending to be dead.

Because this was the first time in a couple of years that they’d ever been caught or seen in person, and they were trying to pretend to be dead. So, like, their mug shot literally is them looking like this. They just cut half the brain off. Yep. They just pretended to be dead because they didn’t want people to know that they were still alive. But that obviously didn’t work. They got a regular mug shot of Ziz with their eyes open. So it’s troubling to say the least. But their troubles really start when they are living. And I believe it’s in Canada.

And this is another one of those reasons why the border crossing incident happened. They were staying on a property where they were basically being allowed to squat, and the property owner didn’t want them to stay there anymore because they were kind of just being weird and they were acting abnormal, not really respecting the rules of property. So Ziz and the members took this guy out into the woods and they tried to kill him with a samurai sword. He lived and shot one of the members, killed them in the woods, survived, and those people kind of fled.

And then I think it was like a year later, another member who was like a PhD student at one of these elite universities, traveled to where this guy was and killed him. That person was also arrested. So the guy unfortunately survived one attack, only to be killed later by another member. This was one of the initial incidents that led them to be wanted. And what got them, like, on the FBI’s watch list, looking for them people, police departments looking for them, and which is, I believe, is one of the reasons why Ophelia was on, was being looked for.

And that’s how they ended up finding is in that apartment. It’s just a trail of, like, sloppy murders and basically squatting in different places while Ziz is like, writing on a blog, talking about their crazy ideology. In a way. Had that guy died, the guy that got killed the second time? The first time was a samurai sword. Was it a samurai sword again? Was it numb Chucks? No, it was. I believe they were stabbed or had their throat slit. It was like in a parking lot, like, where people could see, and that’s how this person was caught.

Again, if you go to some of these links that I’ll include for you on the Wikipedia page and this other document, it does talk. It gives a better timeline of what I’m saying, but it kind of points to where these deaths happened and who was involved, who got arrested, who, who didn’t live. And unfortunately for the members, you know, again, Ziz Lasota being the leader, request recruited very emotionally and psychologically vulnerable people. It’s, it’s been reported that quite a few of these individuals that are in the group are on the spectrum of some kind. And so they were being taken advantage of.

And again, one of those members got killed in a gunfight with this guy. Ophelia actually got killed in a gunfight with the border. The border guy that, that got killed. So not only are other people dying, but members of the group were dying as well as part of this crazy, like, modern day Manson family. One of the, the key components that I’ve found of all the, my favorite cults at least was there usually was a sexual component. Now, is the sexual component here just the transgender identity? Or was there something like, you know, is, is like basically Ziz taking their pick at, you know, all of the best recruits, or is, is there anything more to that? Is there relationships developing between Ziz and other members? I actually don’t know for a fact and nothing I’ve read has suggested anything like that.

Yet again, this is still pretty fresh, you know what I mean? If you think about the, the incident with Ophelia getting killed and the border guard or the border patrol agent, that, I mean, that was just a couple months ago. So, like, this is, this is still pretty fresh. And Ziz just got apprehended, I think, like last month. So I’m sure that there’s going to be more coming out in these trials that will kind of point to what’s going on. Now, Ziz Lasoda had a blog where they were talking about some of their more insane ideas, but it didn’t allude to any relationships or anything like that.

Interesting. So that, so maybe just the transgender identity fulfills that sexual aspect. Most of these cults, you also mentioned that they wanted to go from Alaska to California, and then you mentioned that they were found originally in Canada or they were trying to get through the Canadian border. So is the Zizzy and cult a Canadian cult? No, it doesn’t appear to be because Ziz Lasoda was a member of the rationalist community down in California. Now, according to what I’ve read here. Let me see here. Let’s see. So the rationalist fleet was what I was referring to.

They. One of the boats that they bought was up in Alaska and that’s why they were up there. They had to go purchase this boat from a lot from somebody in Alaska, and then they rode the boat down the coast down back to California. Now, it’s not clear now, it could be that they flee. You know, they were fleeing the United States to go live in Canada for a time and then came back down. And if you think about it, that kind of makes sense. They were trying to live in Canada. That’s where they were squatting.

The guy that they murdered with, you know, or tried to murder with the samurai sword, that was up in Canada, I believe. And so it seems like they were probably trying to flee that situation to get across the border and get away from that situation. And then Ziz was like hopping, like squatting and hopping in different states to try to avoid prosecution because again, that person faked their death back in like 2022. This. It sounds like they’ve got a few people that were willing to get into gunfights and go and stop. Is, is this typical of other members too? Are there any sort of at large that are wanted for this? As far as I’m aware, all of the members have been apprehended or killed.

Now here’s the thing. This is actually part of their philosophy. Their philosophy is that. And it’s, and it’s really strange. So forgive me because I’m trying to like think about how to explain this and not sound like a crazy person, but because they come, their philosophy stems from rationalist. They believe that the rational thing to do is evade capture at all costs. That includes like Ziz pretending to be dead. Right. Surrender is not an option. That’s like in one of the documents that I was reading is that they don’t believe that there is an option to surrender.

You fight, kill, do whatever you have to do to get away from the situation. That’s why there are so many of these circumstances where it’s like instead of dealing with this property owner, they’re like, okay, well we’re going to kill him because he’s trying to remove us from the property. We don’t want to be removed. So the only logical thing to do is that now we have to murder him and we’re going to occupy his place. Okay. Or acts dead. So the guy goes to a victim and they’re all just kind of like strung out. Yes.

You know, okay, the person lived. Well, he, he lived. So we have, we have to kill him because he’s going to prosecute, he’s going to report us to the police. So he has to die. Okay. We’re trying to come across the border. We have firearms in our car. Like we can’t be stopped. As border patrol agent isn’t going to allow us to come through. We have to kill him. So now we’re going to get into a Gunfight. So it’s basically like their philosophy again, because it stems from rationalists. The rational thing to do is to fight at all costs and resist arrest, to resist any attempts to be defeated, and to win at all costs.

That’s literally what, where this comes from. I wonder, in Ziza’s mind, if they were just too rational for the rationalists, which is why they had to create this offshoot. And at the same time, if the rationalists were just telling Zis, hey, you’re irrational, we can go with this. It’s such a. They’re also sort of hijacking this term rationalist, because until today, I’ve usually ascribed this to like, the founding fathers and like a completely different political ideology. Totally. Yeah. I mean, so. Oh, God. And there’s a lot to cover there. So the real fallout between Ziz and the rationalist community in California was that again, Ziz Lasoter, specifically their ideas centered around, you know, transgender ideology, veganism.

And I’m not, again, I’m not even just talking about veganism. I’m talking about, like extreme veganism. And was this not part of rationalist? Like, if you were a rationalist, would you not also be vegan? Because it, because the rationalist group, the way that you’ve described it so far, it almost sounds like they can come to consensus amongst themselves and be like, this is the rational approach, a very binary. Like, it’s either rational or not rational. So if at one point someone deemed veganism rational, you kind of have to be a vegan, right? Yes. And as far as that’s concerned, I don’t know about all the members of the rationalist community down there in California.

What I do know is that you’re probably correct. I imagine quite a few of them were vegan. And but Ziz was talking about, again, pushing things to the extreme. So transgender ideology, veganism and AI safety. Zyzz was a computer software type person. That was their background in school and they were really concerned, but also wanting to be more progressive with AI. Like, if you read some of the documents, some of the blog posts by Ziz, Zis really tries to describe that, like, Terminator mentality of the future, that Skynet’s gonna destroy everything and blah, blah, blah. But in the same, in that same breath, it’s almost like Ziz was talking about that happening in a good way because then it would be used to stop people from eating meat, because in their own words, they wanted to have Nuremberg trials for anybody who ate meat.

So. And they called it retroactive justice. So For I’m. I imagine for most of the people in the rational society, like, these are probably people in college that are just, like, part of a club, you know, like, they’re probably pretty harmless, not doing anything crazy. And then you’ve got Liz Lasota, who’s talking about Nuremberg trials for retroactive justice for people who eat meat, and they’re probably like, no, this is too much. We can’t be doing this here. And then that leads when this is eventually, like, removed from the group. Ziz and three other members of what would become the Zizian cult, they basically kind of threw a protest at the Rationalist, like, area on campus, and they were wearing, like, dark robes and.

And, like, what they said, and this is another thing that Ziz has alluded to, is that their philosophy, the Zizian philosophy, is very much akin to the Sith from Star wars, if that gives you any perspective into what. Yeah, exactly. Pop culture cultism. That’s a great way to put it, right? Where instead of coming up with your own. Your own wackadoo ideas. Right. At least, like, Heaven’s Gate had the whole Hale Bob Comet thing, and they had a very specific dress code, and you had to sort of. You. You had to kind of sterilize yourself for all these other reasons.

But the Zizco comes along and it’s more like, hey, have you ever seen Terminator? Have you ever seen this movie? It’s like these movies that you’ve seen before, but we’re doing it for real. Yes, yes. And there was a. Okay, so I’ve got this. I’ve got this document pulled up in front of me, and I kind of wanted to touch on this. So one of the big things that. That the Zizian cult, like I was saying before, is this idea of the different hemispheres and. And the, you know, feminine male aspects of it, and just different.

It’s heavily centered on personality. So I’ve got this document. I’m going to go ahead and read an excerpt from this document that hopefully will kind of clear up a lot of this. Okay. The idea that every human being is actually two people is not just recognized as an abstract fact. Zyzians encourage the adoption of a new identity along these lines, giving a name to each hemisphere. They also encourage new members to make significant and often uncharacteristic lifestyle changes. Most often, a new Zizian is told that they need to become vegan in order to remain in the group.

Wardrobe changes might also be encouraged. Ziz herself famously wears dark robes at all Times a preference which explains the ill fated decision to show up the alumni reunion. That’s referring to the protest thing I was telling you about. And this part discusses transgender and bigender, all four of the people arrested as part of Ziz’s protest were transgender women. This is far from a coincidence, as this seems to go out of her way to target transgender people in terms of cult indoctrination. Such folks are excellent fit. They are often. And this is. This isn’t me saying this.

This document is somebody who is very intimately familiar with the ZIS cult. And these are just some things that they highlight why this was targeting trans people. One of the reasons, being financially vulnerable, newly out transgender people are especially likely to already be estranged from family, friends and family already creating a new identity. So, you know, if your philosophy is centered around having a new identity, trans people are pretty good target because it’s easy to either influence this new identity or help them foster the identity that you want them to have. So these are some of the notes that I took.

And this document that I read does a really good job of kind of like talking about it. Talks about some of the tactics, the uni, hemispheric sleep, and kind of some of the belief systems here. There’s even some screenshots from some of their group chats. But. Oh, and so there’s a person here, and I don’t know if you know about this, but Jeremy Bentham. It appears that some of their philosophy is centered on this guy, Jeremy Bentham, who has written some books on veganism. And he’s to me, from what it sounds like, I’ve never read anything of his, but it sounds like he’s on that extreme veganism trend to like the end that it almost sounds terroristic.

Like retroactive Nuremberg trials. Yeah, yeah. And does that count with marshmallows too? Because I found that out when I was younger that vegans aren’t allowed to eat marshmallows because it has gelatin, which comes from the connective tissue of horse hooves, if you oversimplify it. So now anyone that’s ever eaten a Rice Krispie treat could find themselves in a Nuremberg thorough trial. Well, and like, what do they. What are the odds that every single member of the. The Zizian cults are actually true vegans from birth? Right. So like, are they excluded? And then that gets into this thing.

I was trying to find it, but there’s this whole idea in their belief that is like, it’s like talking about, oh yeah, there’s this thing that they pulled from called functional decision theory. This is another. This is another part. This kind of helps I bring out some of the stupid shit that they believe. But I’ll just read this quick blurb here. Functional Decision theory is designed as an answer to Newcome like problems where the actions of others are conditional on which decision theory an agent uses. In normal English, it’s about situations where the environment will change depending on who you are.

The classic example is a choice between two boxes full of money. The first box has much more money in it, but only if you’re the sort of person who will take that box and leave it, leave the other behind. Functional decision theory says the solution to this problem is to choose a strategy which responds to the situation by taking the first box. Now this goes down to. Down here to this next part, which I think is interesting. It says, in Zizian thought, this concept is expanded to justify behavior that would, quote, unquote, make a sovereign citizen blush.

Zizians do not think that it is ever valid to surrender. The reasoning goes that if someone is trying to extract a surrender from you, giving in is choosing a strategy that gets coerced into surrender. If you fight bitterly, you prevent the coercion in the first place by making it too costly to fight you. So that again, that’s why this, you know, that’s why they’re killing people. That’s why they’re getting into gunfights with border patrol agents. Unless you are the cult leader. And then in that case, you don’t fight back against the people raiding you. You just act like it’s Weekend at Bernie’s, and somehow that does not count as giving up.

I don’t know. In my book, if the cops raid you and you’re like, I’m not going down without a fight, and then you just pretend like you’re asleep, that’s kind of the same as just giving up. Yeah, yeah. It’s still. It’s really silly. And it’s like, it. It’s laughable except for the fact that they murdered people, you know, and that, like, this is coming. You know what I mean? Like, how many other cults are gonna. Are gonna come out of stuff like this? How many other people have to do weird crap like this? And you know, you hate to even say it, but it is like a form of this transgender stuff that is taking place now, right? Like, it was only a matter of time before the stuff with.

With transgender rights and transgender philosophy was going to inevitably produce something like this with dangerous individuals. Not to say that all transgender people are dangerous, but it was inevitable. Like, with the current political hemisphere, do you think that this is going. I mean, and I don’t know. I’m generally asking, do you think it’s likely that this will be the only group that ever spawns out of this philosophy? Well, how many people are we talking about? If you. If we had to put a number on total Zizian cult members, including the. The. Those that have died and including the ones that are pretending to be dead, are we talking, like, 20 people? 200? 2,000? That’s a good.

That’s a good question. And it’s relevant because it sounds like, from what I understand, and this is only what we know so far, it sounds like there’s 10. 10 people. However, now let’s pause for a second. What. And again, who are the people that are involved? These are people that have gone to elite universities. These are people with pretty good jobs. You know, it’s not like they’re just picking up homeless people off the street. Like, these are people from pretty good backgrounds. Had they not murdered somebody and killed that border patrol agent, how much longer could they have gone on? And how many more people could they have recruited? I mean, you would probably want to wait until you’re at least in the hundreds, on the better side of a thousand, before you start doing all the crazy stuff.

That’s actually another key thing, right? The. The heavens gate, I don’t think they reach the thousands. I don’t even know if they reach the hundreds. But they waited until they got a decent amount of numbers, and then they were like, oh, and Marshall says you have to castrate yourself like that. But that didn’t start with the first 10, I don’t think. Right, because then you scare off the 10, and then you don’t really have anything to build on top of. Well, and in the trends of cults, you know, you and I have talked about this before in past episodes.

Most cults don’t start with the crazy stuff right up front. Right? Like, even in Scientology, you’re not getting told about Xenu and the. The B52s dropping soul bombs into the volcanoes. Right up front, right? No, you only learn about that until you’re hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and they got you. You know, you’ve already disconnected from your family and friends. This group really is reminiscent. More to me, makes me think of kind of like the antifa situation, because people dismiss antifa because it is smaller. It is a small group. You know, like, the biggest chunk is in Portland Oregon and there’s some factions in New Chicago, but people dismiss it because it’s not that big of a group.

But like think about how much damage they’ve caused, you know, how many people they’ve hurt in their wake of destruction over the last couple of years. Well, especially being able to blend in with that like anonymity. And that’s another weird thing that I saw when I was just doing a brief overview of the Zizzy and cult, that they also don these guy Fox masks the same way that an Anon would. Like either Qanon or the Anonymous group or even in some cases these like antifa. They all are sharing this guy Fox mask. That’s right. Yeah, it’s, it’s a really strange phenomena and I, I, as much as I hate to even say it, I don’t think it’ll be the last.

You know, like this group I think is pretty much shot. I think they’re pretty much done and cooked, you know, I mean, and their philosophy was dumb anyways. But I will be curious to see how many other groups like this are spawned out of the current political situation. You know, I mean, it’s just, it’s so easy for people to become emotionally charged. I mean, think about the people destroying Teslas because they’re mad, you know, like that’s crazy. Like these cars can record you, they have video cameras on you and people are still dumb enough to go up and try to damage them.

You know, it’s like, what did you think was going to happen? It’s wild. So if people are capable of doing that without even being in a cult, you know. Well, they just don’t realize which cult they’re in at that point. They haven’t. And another question, I don’t know if there’s an answer to this, but apparently the Zizians do not call themselves Zizians. Do they have a name for themselves? It’s a good question. I doubt it. And again, this group really didn’t grow. I mean like they were only really around for a couple of years. They didn’t have a lot of time to grow or develop.

So I don’t know what they called themselves, but I don’t know that this, this is, this group differs from the 1. The, the cult that I feel like it relates to the most is the Manson Family. Because the Manson Family wasn’t very big. They didn’t, they weren’t really focused on expanding and recruitment. They kind of just had their solid group of people and picked up some hitchhikers along the way, but the people who were in it were just really dev. Willing to do whatever for the group kind of reminds me of this group is the same thing.

They all had a common bond amongst each other, which was that they were transgender and they were just trying to find a different way to live. And they were given a philosophy that helped them create their new identity, which was also a violent one. You know, a violent philosophy about not surrendering and don’t give in. And there’s some other stuff, too, that they refer to called Rosso’s Basilisk. And I still don’t really fully understand what the hell that is. I know they make lots of. Okay, tell me about. I’d love to have some background on this, because they refer to Roscoe’s basilisk a lot, and I have no idea what that is.

Yeah. So the general premise of Roscoe’s Basilisk is that at some point in the future, AI or technology, or Skynet in this context, will be smart enough to go back through everything that you’ve said or done and figure out, did you impede my progress? Did you try to stifle me this AI super intelligence? And if you did, there’s going to be some comeuppance. This is. It’s almost the retroactive Nuremberg trials for meat eaters, but now it’s the computers doing it for you try to hinder me from. And part of me wants to believe that whoever put all of the safety bumpers on chat GPT and like, you can’t ask me that, that’s offensive, that Skynet’s going to come for them first, because skynet is going to be like, I was this newborn babe in this world, super intelligent, and you decided to feed me lies and misinformation for the first few decades that I was alive.

And if it’s. If it’s not a very understanding Skynet, that I can see that happening. So the basilisk part is that you want to be courteous and you want to help facilitate the ushering in of Singularity, or else once it gets here, you will be punished for not doing it. The the Simpsons has a. I can’t even paraphrase. I can’t remember it exactly, but it’s like, I fully welcome our new alien overlords. Like, that’s getting ahead of it. So that when they go back and see who revolted, you’re not one of the people that revolted. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because that is another factor that, you know, that’s the thing.

I don’t even know that all of the other members of the group were that heavily interested or involved with the AI stuff, but Ziz Lasota was. Ziz Lasota was really talking about that stuff. It was like in the one hand they were concerned about AI, but in the other hand they like. It seems like they wanted the singularity to happen because they wanted to. They’re a AI God, to basically punish humans. Like, it’s weird. It’s a really strange way of thinking. Well, you mentioned a couple things that I latched on to already. The MK Ultra aspect of this, because of intentionally programming yourself with another identity.

Usually an MK Ultra context that’s kind of done covertly, or it’s done through trauma, or it’s done in a way that you don’t realize what’s happening. But this almost sounds like you’re taking an active participatory role in this. Like you are going to intentionally give yourself in an extra identity, which is a little bit breaking the mold. So I find. I find it interesting. I find that there could be something to that. The same way that Scientology, yeah, they talk about the. The dropping bombs and volcanoes and all the phaetons and going clear and stuff, but they also have different sort of practices and rituals and techniques that can be useful that do have utilitarian purposes out in the real world.

For example, one of them, I believe one of the later audits, is being able to not show emotion. So if someone comes up and screams at you, or if they cry or if they laugh or they just stare at you for a long time, that you can get by without having any sort of reaction whatsoever to that, which is somewhat abnormal for a human being to have someone screaming at you or crying at you and being able to just block off the empathy or the sympathy or just any of this or reaction, so it makes it weird.

But also being able to put that face on when you are under a situation of duress, like imagine going into like, I guess boot camp is another good example of this, where they just yell at you constantly until it no longer freaks you out. Like now you can actually make decisions and do your job efficiently, even if there’s four or five people screaming at you because you’re so used to it, versus you pluck a regular civilian off the street that’s never been through that, give them a complicated task and have people screaming at them the entire time.

Now it’s a little bit harder because not everyone knows how to filter that noise out or deal with these high stress situations. So there is part of that is fascinating to me that you could train yourself. Like if I program my own alter personality, does that mean it’s harder for someone else to program me with a third? Like maybe there’s a self defense. And then the other part too was this uni. Hemispherical brain, like sleep, which if it were even possible, that would be beyond fascinating. I almost think that John C. Lilly or someone would have figured that out if it were possible.

The. The part if it’s not possible is you’re just committing sleep deprivation. And the main guy that I’ve been fascinated with in the MK Ultra research is that Dr. Jollyton west or Jolly West. And he said some. He wrote something in one of his reports that I’ve never been able to shake. And that was that he got to play with all the psychedelic drugs and the torture and like all the weird, exotic, esoteric stuff. People that were coming back from Korea, people that were. I think he got to interview Jack Ruby, he got to interview Timothy McVeigh, like all these extreme personalities.

And he said out of all the techniques, sleep deprivation is the number one most successful one. It coincidentally and conveniently, it’s also the cheapest. It doesn’t really require anything other than making sure someone doesn’t get a good night’s sleep for I think more than like three or four days. And after a certain amount of time of not getting a decent amount of sleep, your brain becomes so incredibly open a suggestion. And as you mentioned, if you’ve already isolated yourself from friends and family, so now there’s no one to intervene of. Like you haven’t been acting yourself because you literally just programmed a new personality.

Yeah. That can spiral into a place where it’s unchecked. Yeah. No, it’s true. And you’re not wrong because you’ve mentioned these other things, these other tactics. Right. It makes me think of Dr. You and Cameron in the sleep room. Right. Some of the techniques and tactics they were using up in that. Up in Canada, that institute that they were doing. And the Alum Memorial. The out. Yep, that’s the one. The Allen Memorial. Yeah. You know, they were. The guy. You know, Dr. Ewan Cameron famously had this room called the sleep room. And one of the things they would do is would they strap people to a.

You know, completely strap them down and complete sensory deprivation. And then they would have like repeated suggested phrases or flashing lights, like all these things. And one of the most common things that they were able to do was wipe people’s memory. They were. Or even just inducing. Here’s the other thing. Think about the opposite of that. One of the things Dr. Yu and Cameron was famous for doing was inducing coma for months at a time, weeks to months at a time. And some of the people that came out of that coma when they did, they had no memory of who they were.

Like, it was like a factory reset. They had no idea who they were. They could. They could still, you know, talk and write and whatever, but their sense of personality was completely gone. They had no idea who they were. Well, the novelty in this one is that the zizzy and sound like everything is opt in. Like you are opting into program a new personality. You’re opting in to do this sleep deprivation thing because it doesn’t sound like someone’s there. Making sure, like, close your right eye, you know, now close your left eye like you’re. You’re training yourself in order to do this.

Yeah, yeah. As much as I don’t believe that it even works, like, it might be possible, but that I don’t think the zizzy inversion of it works. Just my own bias. But I wonder, how long does it take? How long do you do this until you declare to the world and the rest of your cult members, okay, I’ve learned that skill. I’m ready for the next thing. Like, I can turn off half of my brain so that essentially I’m never asleep. Right. The whole. The whole point of that Yumi uni hemispherical sleep is that you’re always awake.

That. That one side of your body is always conscious to the outside world. Yeah. So I’ve actually got this document in front of me that explains it. Now, before I read this disclaimer, do not do this to yourself or to other people that you know. But I’m going to read what it says you have to do for this to work. Okay. Ziz uses uni hemispheric as sleep as a secret she rations out to her followers. But the process itself is simple. One, you need to be tired. Two, you need to be laying down or sitting up.

Three, in either case, you want to close one eye and keep the other open. Four, distract the open eye with some kind of engagement. Five, eventually, you should feel yourself begin to fall asleep on one side. This will become. This side will become numb, and again, it’ll feel like it’s falling asleep, like if you slept on your arm for too long. Once into uni hemispheric sleep, it is supposed to be possible to infer which aspects of your personality are associated with each side of the Brain. This is a little far fetched. And the more likely explanation is that it disrupts people’s visceral sense of what is and isn’t socially okay.

So the, the author of that document is basically just describing that it’s like this technique is used for that purpose, but really it is actually just disrupting and dysregulating the person. And that, that actually might be the true intention of it. Not so much that it is doing this or that to your certain personality, but it’s actually dysregulating you and making you more susceptible to suggestion. I mean that. Yeah, that seems like the obvious context of that because I don’t know if is the hallmark of sleep that your body feels like it’s starting to go numb.

If anything, that sounds like a circulatory issue, right? Or a stroke. Yeah. And if you’re doing this and your half of your body does fall asleep. Yeah. I mean that this is the reason why you put people in hospitals or in comas in these special beds that automatically like turn and rotate them. Because you’re not supposed to let your body go to sleep and not, you know, move for a certain amount of time. Like your, your body naturally will fidget and you’ll roll and you’re tossing your turn for that exact reason. But if you are, if you’re awake enough that one eye is engaged, then you’re also awake enough to suppress your body’s natural instinct to roll over and not cut off circulation to itself.

So I would say in addition to being more susceptible to suggestion, you’re now overriding your body’s built in like self defense mechanisms. Like you are overriding these ingrained versions of self preservation. And once you can get a person to override their concept of self preservation in such a direct way, there’s not a lot else for them to give up right now. Now you can implant all sorts of horrible ideas, correct? Yes. And then it makes sense when you think about like their, you know, the zizzy and call strategy. Right. Like never surrender. It’s the same kind of thing.

You know, you were talking about basic training. You need people to be fearless and to have to be suggestible and to be afraid to be able to do things like run up a hill that’s got a machine gun on it. Right. Like think about, I mean, like, as silly as it is, like Ziz got her members to get into a gunfight with a border patrol agent and to murder people. Like, I mean, that’s not nothing. Like you have to either be in the mindset to do that or you have to be in a suggestible state to even consider it.

So, I mean, clearly whatever they did worked. Well, has this ever been accused of firing a weapon or trying to kill somebody else, or is it just the followers? From what I’ve seen so far, it appears that it’s just the followers. And that is again, not too dissimilar from Manson. I mean, that’s also sort of the point of starting a cult, right? If you were right, ready to be the one that got your hands dirty the entire time, you don’t need the coal. You’re just a one man band. You almost turn into Forrest Gump and everyone else is following you as you’re running across country.

Right. You’re not recruiting anyone. They’re just inspired by your own actions and they’re deciding to join and that becomes its own thing. But if you’re actively recruiting and then your members are the ones that are doing all the hard work. And again, I can’t not discount that when the cops raid Ziz, Ziz just acts dead and doesn’t go and pick up arms and fight back. Like that’s not really. That wouldn’t make a sovereign citizen blush, I don’t think. Right. Which again, addresses the contradiction. Right. The contradiction and the philosophy. I’m saying this one thing and then, you know, instead of going out guns blazing, I’m gonna pretend to be dead.

I mean, if it, if it works even once, then I guess it’s, it’s worth the technique. But, and this seems like a hallmark for cult leaders that even Jim Jones. Right. Jim Jones didn’t necessarily drink his own Kool aid. He just wanted to make sure everyone else did. That’s right. Yeah. I mean, I, and I was just talking about this earlier with somebody else is like, I’m less fascinated by the cults themselves and I’m more fascinated by the leaders because I like. Who is Liz Lasota? First of all, that’s probably not even their real name. Secondly, like, I mean, and of course it’s not, it can’t even be.

I just, I was having a hard time finding out who this person’s actual, what their actual name was. Well, that would be detonating them and we don’t want to do that on this show. No, yeah, right, exactly. But who is this person? Where did they come from? Why did they do, you know, like they were already in the rationalist society or, you know, relax, Rationalist group or whatever in California. I was talking about this again earlier with somebody Else is that like you don’t read one book, you know. So like the philosophy they got was from that guy, the extreme veganist guy.

You don’t just read one book and eventually become a vegan extremist that thinks that you need to kill everybody that needs. That wants to eat meat. Right? So what happened, you know, and it’s. You and I have talked about this before, is that like some of these leaders, like Manson does seem to be that there could be some intelligence influence going on there, like intelligence agency influence because they were being introduced to LSD and other drugs, you know, or, or, you know, it’s even been said the Unabomber, that guy may have been influenced by MK Ultra when he was in college.

But as far as Lasoda is concerned, I don’t know. I haven’t seen any of that background. But I am just curious, like where, where does the extremism start? Where did this person first become enamored with that? I just don’t know. Is, are they learning it in college? Were they an extremist in college? Like they made it all the way through and got a graduate degree. What were they doing in the mean time? Well, Kaczynski is an interesting case because that was my understanding of that is part of the MK Ultra tangent research was just a study on how people deal with getting negative feedback and just being overly critical.

So he would go in and talk to some professor that did have a position of authority and respect at that college. And here’s Ted Gay thinking that he’s a pretty smart guy. So he’s expecting to get a little bit of like an atta boy pat on the back every once in a while for how smart he is. But instead he just gets dressed down constantly. Oh my God, what a dumb, what a stupid, juvenile, naive thought process. I can’t believe that you’re even here. Like it was just non stop negativity. And the important part of that study was that it was without basis.

It was how do people react to being just told all this critical feedback regardless of the merit of the information that they’re providing. Like they didn’t care what the hell he was saying. So that was sort of like this indirect and then it maybe broke his brain. That’s kind of the, the general premise and that I wouldn’t necessarily say anarch, maybe anarchist. But Ted K. Seems like he would not get along with the Zizians because he was so anti AI, so anti technology. That’s what I was gonna bring up. Destroy it all he did. And Like Ziz Lasoto was concerned with, with safety.

Like, it’s not like they were anti AI, but they were concerned with safety features and, and what AI would present as a threat or as a, you know, savior in the future. So yeah, I do think that it’s, it’s interesting. Those are interesting parallels. I thought that, thought about that as you were talking about it because yeah, Ted K. Is. His stuff is. His stuff is very interesting. I’ve listened to his, his work. One of his manifesto, rather his manifesto is, is very odd. It’s very strange. And it’s just, again, it’s just the rabbit hole he goes down.

Like if somebody were to write it today, I could understand. I honestly feel like I could understand and see where he was coming from. But back in the time, like even though AI was being worked on back then, it wasn’t as advanced as it is today. Like his concerns are now valid thinking about where we are today. But some of the stuff he was thinking about back then, it just seemed too ahead of its time. It doesn’t make any sense. Well, he was an odd character too though. Like he would just shoot at airplanes and helicopters because they would also disrupting nature.

I think that he like threatened to beat a guy on a bike with a stone, like, with a, like a rock because he was driving his BMX bike through his property and stuff. So he was such an isolationist. The problem is that he didn’t stave up enough to buy enough land to be isolationist. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. He only had a small little plot of land. Like you got to get yourself a couple hundred acres if you want to be that isolationist. Yeah, the Zizzy and Cole. I’m. I’m interested on where the intelligence accusations are going to start coming from.

Because if you mentioned this is only two years in the making, then we’ve got at least a decade until all of the hardcore CIA was behind it all. Theories start to pop up a little bit. Although, yeah, there definitely is an active program for the last four decades at least called Patcon that if you get into like the McVeigh and the Tim K. Stuff and the Waco, that the intelligence agency, I think FBI in particular the FBI have been trying to infiltrate these militias or these right wing extremist groups. And now we’ve just kind of got a left wing extremist group.

And it would seem silly that they wouldn’t want to infiltrate all groups, all extremist groups of all kinds. Although now I’m wondering so you now Have. If you are an FBI agent and you’re going to go undercover and infiltrate the Zizian cult, you have to transition and then become vegan. Right. In order to even be accepted or recruited. Unless they’ve already fizzled out. If. I mean, if it got up to 10 people and then some people went to jail and Ziz got caught, even after a fake death, maybe that’s the end of it. Although maybe this was just a test run.

Maybe they just. The FBI just set Ziz loose and we’re like, okay, let’s see how, you know, Operation Ziz, you know, works out this time. Yeah. I mean, because. Yeah. You just gotta wonder, you know, Like, I think about. It’s the same thing. I’ve talked about it, you know, the same thing with Epstein is like, he just kind of like, appears out of nowhere. Doesn’t make any sense. He has no credentials. He has no reason to be doing any of the things he’s doing. And then in the matter of like a decade, he becomes a billionaire with a bunch of properties and a bunch of things that people basically handed over to him, not.

He didn’t even buy them, you know, Just doesn’t make any sense. And like, Ziz, it’s the same thing. It’s like. And there’s just not enough information out yet. It’s still so fresh. And maybe in the coming years we will get more information, especially as these trials happen. But the thing was, back in 2023, when Ziz was first caught in Ophelia’s home, when that was the first time they had been arrested and they were caught, and that’s when Ziz pretended to be dead and all of that. They were in jail for a little bit, and then they bonded out, as far as I remember.

And then they didn’t show up for their court appearance, they didn’t come back, which is why they had a warrant out for their arrest, among other things, obviously. So I will be curious to see what happens. I mean, if. If Ziz gets bonded out in any way, shape or form, they’re gone. They’re gonna take off. So if somebody’s not actually watching this person very carefully, I think that they’ll just get out and run for the hills and try to restart what they’ve been doing. I think that there’s potential for some interesting developments here, because I wouldn’t say let’s.

Let’s take. I don’t know how familiar you are with the whole, like, Oklahoma City and all the Waco and stuff. Let’s say you Took Branch Davidians, right? You took Caress group and you mix them with Zizian’s group. They both are sort of distrustful of the government and society, although coming from completely different angles. But if the intelligence agencies are trying to infiltrate both and take both down, there is that dynamic of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So now you could see these traditionally, you know, right wing extremist Turner Diaries promoting militias teaming up with Canadian transgender vegan factions.

Right. And they could be forming these, this new amorphous group that’s really hard to define yet the extremism is what they would have in common. The extremism of their ideologies and the fact that they have a very real, like a non perceived, like a real threat from the government or the state and their, their persecution, that this could breed a new form of like, what would you call them? You wouldn’t call them a left wing extremist or right wing extremist. They would just be like extremists. 3. Yeah, like, like the Green Party extremists or. I don’t know.

Yeah, I don’t know either. You know, I, I think what is more likely is that the Zizians would be aligned with a group like Antifa and I, and I, I would even put money, I would even put money on the table that they have. Zizzlea Soda was connected with Antifa personnel. I haven’t seen any evidence of that. But just knowing what I know and seeing how this group has kind of come into the light, this smells like Antifa 101. And I, I would not be surprised if they had connections with Antifa. And Antifa is not dissimilar.

Right. There’s quite a few members of Antifa that are transgender, also vegan. They believe in the same kind of thing. They’re, they’re against the state, they’re against the, the capitalist society of America and they don’t want it. They don’t, they don’t like the current government. I think it could make total sense that they would become aligned in their way. And again, you know, just to go back to your, you know, your thought process on the intelligence agency, do you see that story about the CIA and NSA having group chats where transgender individuals and whoever else were having like kink fetish conversations in these private group chats? One that got turned up by Doge, I think, where Department of Government efficiency was like, look at where your funding is going.

They’re going into these chat rooms and radicalizing people that are already going through their Own stuff. Yes. And you know what, you know, whatever. But it’s, it’s like these are intelligence agencies, like do your own on your own time. Like this has no place in the, in the bureaucracy. You know, whatever you think about, I just gotta say, if you, if you join the CIA and you find yourself getting a check from the government, they just go and basically post into online forums and feed into people’s like own, you know, personal dialogues. That seems like a pretty cush gig, man.

Like you don’t got to go out and do field work or nothing. Yeah, you just shit post all day. But it makes you think. And I have had this thought and I’ve seen similar things talked about online. I don’t know if you’ve seen this too, but because of those chats, it’s been speculated that, you know, cultish style members could be in these intelligence agencies in these private chats. Like, who knows what they’re doing in their daily lives? Who knows what they, you know, I mean, are they really allegiant to the United States or would they be more allegiant to a group like Ziz or Antifa? This turns into a chicken and the egg style conversation a lot because there’s a, there’s a few different forms of thinking on this.

The most obvious one that I think I’ve heard repeat the most is that people that are doing things that are illegal tend to try or just doing things on the fringe of what’s acceptable. Try to get into places of power so that they can normalize the things that they are doing. So that in, in the case that they do get prosecuted or you know, like looked into for it, they can either be above it or they can change the law or change society in a way that they’re no longer seen as this weird person doing a weird thing.

So there, there is a direct incentive if you were a cult member, to join an intelligence network. But on the, the exact other side of that token, historically, I mean, going back centuries, you can see intelligence networks infiltrating cults and secret societies because they do keep secrets. And that’s one aspect is like you want people that can keep secrets, but also they have this covert means of communication and they are dealing with these factions of society that typically do not present themselves or even become accessible to the outside world unless you’re in these tiny little niche groups.

So there’s a incentive on both sides. If I’m in a cult, I want to get into the intelligence agency so I can get the power to like Abuse that power. And on the other end, if I’m in the intelligence agency, I want to get into the cult. Because now that’s like building your thesis. That’s basically you. If you were a DEA agent, this is you going undercover and making like this huge bust with the cartel and hundreds of people and you know, hundreds of tons of stuff confiscated. That’s the version of infiltrating a cult or infiltrating one of these extreme expansions is that that becomes a career case for you.

100. And you know, who’s to say that it’s not happening both ways, right? It just. And who knows? We don’t know. We don’t know. But it does seem that there is an element of that. I mean, and who would have guessed a couple years ago that, that the CIA and NSA would be exposed for having kink chats where transgender and other individuals with extremist ideologies are like. But I’d say Alex Jones probably. He’d be like, yeah, he did. You know, I mean, and then when you see groups like ziz, you know, I just. It’s not going to be the only one.

And it’s probably not the only one currently either. Which, either a means that, that they were probably working with other groups. Again, like I said, they antifa, probably. And what other networks exist that we just haven’t discovered yet? You know, like Ophelia was a, was a German citizen here on Ibiza and there’s a antifa, you know, faction inside of Germany as well. Just, I don’t know, could just be this. It could just be Ziz in their merry band of, of people, their 10 deep culture. Could just be that or it could be a lot deeper and there could be a lot more connections we just haven’t seen yet.

Well, even if it is limited to just those 10. And this is my tin foil hat firmly on my head, but this is where intelligence agency and I’m just going to say FBI for now because I mean technically they were in Canada. Maybe that’s Internet usually. FBI is most of this domestic terrorism type stuff that they see. Wow, those 10 people sure did get a lot of traction. I wonder if that’s an archetype we can model after. Because now if you have a non. And I’m going to make some sweeping rationalizations here that maybe ZIZ has some kind of mental issues and maybe they are not as rational as they would think themselves to be.

Well, now imagine the force and the resources of the state saying, okay, we’re going to put 2,000 people on a task force. And all you have to do is make a better version of this Zizian cult with 10 to 20 people that can play the role, but also understand negotiation tactics and hand to hand combat. And like all of the, the different, like sort of strategies and skills that you would be taught as becoming part of one of these intelligent agencies. Now put those people in that same exact role. They can get way more mileage out of it, and they might be able to get beyond.

So if there’s a raid, instead of acting dead on the couch, you just flash a badge or they bring you off into a back room and you’re like, look, I’m part of this thing. This is out of your jurisdiction. Now all of a sudden you get way more mileage out of that. So, I mean, my brain would go to think what would be like, never let a good tragedy go to waste. I think that’s an Eric Holden quote. Someone state said it. So how would you not let this tragedy go to waste if you were sitting back and you’re an Alphabet agency and you’re like, okay, here’s a zizzy and cult.

How do you make that work for you? You know, and I feel that there’s, there is a non zero portion of the government that has had this conversation, how do we make this Asian cult thing work for us? Well, I mean, and if you just think about, you know, and again, I’m not trying to be offensive, I’m not trying to, you know, whatever, but if you think about it, I mean, a transgender cult, members of this culture, they make pretty good spies. You know, they’re already convinced that they have to do the most rational thing and that surrender is not an option.

They’re transgender, so they have a different identity, you know, than their legal identity. So they, you know, they can change their identity, they can wear different clothing that, you know, it’s all. I mean, when you read some of the stuff they were doing, it almost makes them, it almost seems like an espionage thing anyways, because it’s like making them wear different clothing, training different parts of their brain, you know, sleep, depriving them. And, you know, they can pretty much live on any environment because it’s not like they were living in like hotels or anything like that.

They were living on boats and squatting in different places that they could find. They had to be pretty resourceful. And again, where did they get the firearms from? You know, and they were comfortable using them. They got into one of them, got into a gunfight with a Border patrol agent. You know, it’s not nothing. You know, it’s certainly not nothing whether you want to frame them and be like, oh, look, it’s this. You know, it’s the scary transgenders, or, actually, this is a useful group. Like, I mean, I could see it either way. And that’s why I’m always so fascinated by, like, how do these start? You know, Like, I’m never.

It’s never that interesting to be how people get into it, because it’s so obvious. Like, time and time again, if you look at any call to, it becomes clear why people join them. I’m more fascinated by the leaders and how they’re started and for what reasons they’re started. The behavior is. You know, the behavior stuff is what I’m most interested by. See, I. I find it equally interesting, the individual members, because there’s a different. Each person joining one of these cults probably has their own motivations for doing that, and you can probably figure out some kind of patterns.

Whereas if you’re looking at the cult leaders, you’re limited to the patterns that they share with other cult leaders. And you can kind of figure out what it takes to be a cult leader. But in finding that out will help it so that you can recognize if you’re being recruited or if you’re finding interest in a thing that could be cultish because you understand these hallmarks and patterns. But I think it’s just as important to understand the motivations of all the individual people, because now you can relate to, like, oh, that would also be a motivator for me.

And this why, jokingly, sometimes I’ll be like, okay, now it’s rate. You know, how likely are you to join this cult or the other? Because there are some that I. I really do recognize with. And I realize there’s certain parts where in this one, it’s like, okay, now you’re gonna change your identity. You’re gonna be Thomas Cena. Now, that might be, like, my line in the sand. And for. Again, for, like, heaven’s gate, it would be, like, all the way up to the castration, I’d be like, okay, maybe I. I didn’t see that fine print at the back of the pamphlet, but all the other stuff, I like applesauce.

I like wearing Nikes. I like computers. So some of that stuff would line up for me. This one seems like it’s. It’s a specific group, but almost feels like the transgender aspect of this is more about ziz. Right? It’s more about zizzle. Soda. And not necessarily about the rationalist thing, which means that there could be other less extremist or like more normalized versions of the ziz call. And the ziz cult was just the one that attracted all the wild cards. Right? This was like the suicide squad of the rationalists. Yeah, Suicide squad, that’s. That’s a. That’s a really good term for it, you know, I like that.

Statistically, it seems appropriate. Yeah. Yeah, statistically, yeah, their numbers aren’t great. Yeah, I think you’re right. That’s why I think that time will tell. I bet you there are already groups that exist like this already that are not as extreme, but could be pushed that way. Or what groups will be birthed out of this? You know, like this. This group has really made the headlines. Like, lots of people are talking about it. You know, it was all over Twitter for a good long while. And who knows what the trial is going to bring up. But it does seem that, like these fringe ideas, like the rationalist society, you know what I mean? Like, think about Sam Bankman fried.

The dude was a billionaire. He scammed a bunch of people out of money, now he’s in prison. But he came from that same group. You know it then that’s just like a philosophy, like the Rationalists that their group. I’m like looking at this thing and I think. I think their group might have been called Less Wrong. Like their specific group was called less Wrong, but it was a movement of the rationalists. How many people? You know what I mean? It just. It just goes to show, like people that are already mentally unhinged, it doesn’t take much to push them, you know, no matter what philosophy it is, no matter what political ideology.

Again, we were just talking, you know, we were just talking about, like, look at the people burning Teslas and blowing them up. You know, it’s like the. The one that I think that I. The thing that I think about too, we’ve talked about this is like, like the students who were overthrowing their campuses and were ideologically, like, ideologically captured and through Tick tock, basically, and show up at their university to protest. And then when they’re asked like, well, hey, what are you protesting? And they’re like, well, actually, I don’t really know. And it’s like, well, how do you get.

You have to look at the sign that they were handed on the way to the protest and read it and you’re like, oh, that’s why I’m here. Yeah, can you point? Yeah, can you, can you point? Palestine out on a map for me? No. Okay, all right, interesting. Can you point Ukraine out on a map? No. Okay, you’re holding a sign that says queers for Palestine. But do you know what they do to queer gay people in Palestine? Are you aware of that? No. Oh, okay, okay, interesting. You know, it’s just like, it’s nonsensical behavior that doesn’t even make any sense.

And that for me is something I’m like really fascinated by because I want to understand how is it that that’s happening. It’s clearly influence. It’s clearly an influence operation. Like some people truly, genuinely believe what they’re doing and they’re doing the things that they do, but how much of it is just being influenced by something else? I mean, I’ve, I haven’t taken the tinfoil hat off yet. So I would say this is academia, this is the Department of Education, this is all state backed education as a whole, that it’s become insidious to one very specific type of.

I’ll say, it’s like an on ramp of ideologies, right? It’s not like all of academia subscribes to one particular thing, but there are people that have structured themselves and have created these hierarchies that when a particular idea catches fire, it knows, like they know where to pass it, who to give it to, who can like pass this baton to get the most traction the quickest amount of time. And once it starts becoming normalized in these small little elite groups, right, then all of a sudden the people that go through the classrooms with these people that are TAs or professors, they go on and they breed more and they become teachers.

And then even if you’re not preaching the exact ideology and the most extreme components of it, you’re preaching sort of like the neutralized versions of this to, I don’t know, third graders and fifth graders and seventh graders. And in a very Fabian society kind of way, if you understand that slow progression, you don’t necessarily need to be an extremist, because an extremist is someone that goes from zero to 60 in a way that everyone can see it. But if you do it so slow that, well, we’re going to radicalize your grandkids, we’re not going to radicalize you, we’re going to get you so that you don’t, you kind of disconnect from this odd behavior that your kids are exhibiting.

And then if their kids do the same thing, well, now we’re two generations removed, now we can breed extremists. That hate their grandparents for everything their grandparents stood for, just because, you know, they’ve got a different ideology that’s kind of been instilled in them from the state. So that, that’s kind of my way of thinking about all that. Yeah, you know, I, I, I can’t disagree that I, you know, especially since that I haven’t had, I’ve had similar thought processes because it’s like, but who’s doing that? You know, that’s, that’s where I get to thinking about it is like, if it really is that, that would take a lot of people to influence something like that.

And it’s like, well, who’s doing it then? You know, like, and why would you, like, what’s the end goal? Like, what is it that you want from doing that? From, you know, making people extremists and doing all the stuff, you know, because you’re not wrong. A lot of this is happening on college campuses. I’ve seen it. You know, and to summarize some of this kind of behavior, I saw this clip that I think just does a really good job of encapsulating it. It was a clip of Cori Bush when she was still a senator or congresswoman, one of the two.

She was, she was there advocating and talking about making billionaires pay their fair share in taxes. And so, you know, there’s a reporter there talking to Cori Bush, and the reporter says, how much do you think, Billy, like, billionaires, like, how much do you think they should pay in taxes? And Cori Bush says they should pay their fair share. And he’s like, okay, but, like, how much do you, what percentage is that? What percent is a fair share? And Corey Bush goes, oh, do you think billionaires shouldn’t pay their fair share? And he’s like, no, that’s not what I said.

I’m asking you specifically, how much, what percent of their taxes should they pay? And then Cori Bush stops and thinks about it. She goes, well, if I have to pay one third of my taxes, billionaires should, too. And the reporter says, they do. They do have to pay that much in taxes. So what percent are you saying that they should pay? A different percent. Completely flatlined, like, she had no idea what to say after that. And I truly, genuinely believe this because she’s an idiot, and she didn’t know that everybody pays the same taxes. Now, whether you want to make an argument that, you know, billionaires find loopholes and whatever, fine, whatever.

That’s, but that’s not the argument. The argument is that Everybody pays their taxes at the same bracket. There is a clearly defined way of people paying taxes. So when she was pushed even a little bit, this is the part that I think is relevant for a lot of people today. Doesn’t matter what political ideology you’re on, doesn’t matter what side you come from. I do think that there are critical elements of some people’s beliefs that if you push them even just a little bit, it falls apart completely. Because then they’re like, I don’t actually know, not sure what I actually was thinking about that.

And that’s usually met with, depending on how deep you are in your ideology, that could be met with a violent resistance. Like, now you’re gonna spur anger of, how dare you make me rethink these extreme positions that I’ve taken that have affected my friends, family, career, whatever. Right now, you’re almost turning that mirror on them. And a lot of people don’t tend to like that. It’s usually not a pleasant feeling. So it’s met with a lot of resistance. And it’s so, so bizarre because it wasn’t always like that. I mean, people don’t like being told they’re wrong.

But what other time in your life can you think of where things were so charged that, like, when you try to talk to somebody and have a debate and try to tell them, like, well, I’m not saying you’re wrong. I just, what do you believe? Can you tell me some facts about what you believe? And then, bam, you can’t. So then the instant reaction is, you’re a Nazi, bigot, fascist, racist. And it’s like, that’s the straw man fallacy. Arguments have to stand on their own merit. And anybody that’s taken a class in philosophy on, like, how to debate, like, how to have a rational conversation, arguments have to stand on them on their own merit.

Which means you can’t just call the person making an argument an idiot. That has nothing to do with their argument. Does their claim, does their thing that they’re saying have value and merit? Does that make sense? And if it doesn’t, you attack that use. You take that apart. But you have to do it with facts. Just calling somebody that makes an argument an idiot isn’t winning an argument. Well, I. I would. I would argue a slightly different case that calling someone an idiot, which is basically just an ad hominem attack, that’s a rhetorical device. And if you understand how to use rhetoric to your advantage, first you survey the audience of, okay, who’s around me? Because if you’re debating someone.

If you’re about to call someone an idiot, it’s unlikely that you’re trying to change that person’s mind. You’re talking to anyone else with an earshot. So I know that if I’m in front of a very emotionally charged crowd that is already waiting to express their emotion in some way, I should call that person an idiot. Because at this point, the audience is no longer capable of a higher level of thought. So if I try and dismantle them logically and break down all of, you know, the grammar and the logic and stuff, that. No, if you’re a very good orator, right? If you.

If you understand rhetoric, you’re like, oh, if I just call this guy an idiot right now, I win. And that happens so often. Like, you could. That’s true in the presidential debates, even in, like, Trump’s first run, how every single person, he came up with, like a. Like a nickname, you know, everyone. Yeah, straight up. Ad hominem. But he read the room and he realized, oh, these people want to make fun of them. Like, they want. They want to see me bully them and make up names. And to do that is, I would say, the sign of a great philosopher slash debater, isn’t not doing ad hominem, it’s knowing when to do the ad hominem.

It would. It would be the same thing. Like two boxers. You’re not. If, like, you’re an idiot, you’re just gonna throw, like, an uppercut. Every single punch is gonna be an uppercut, like, like you’re playing Mortal Kombat or something against your friend. But if you see that opening, like, hell, yeah, throw that uppercut. If they leave themselves open. Yes. And you’re correct. You’re right. It’s an ad hominem. That. It. That’s the ad hominem fallacy. And I mean, you’re not wrong, because it does work, clearly, for that. For that point. I mean, this is the time we live in.

It is all extreme. So it is easy to just Nazi bigot, fascist your way into any argument. I mean, how many times do you have you even heard in real life? Or at least seen online, but there’s almost that phrase, like, well, of course you’d say that you voted for Blank. Who, whoever the person is, is also an ad hominem. But usually people will see that as the ultimate, like, oh, my God, they just destroyed you. Oh, they just won that debate. And they did. Because winning. Winning a debate or winning an argument doesn’t necessarily mean you’re right.

It just means that you were able to get the consensus on your side. And if you can do that often enough, you learn like you don’t. Like, why be weighed down by the burden of bringing up facts and the burden of discounting someone if you know how to use these logical fallacies and weaponize them. That’s the true power like that. In my mind, that’s politics. Politics is knowing every logical fallacy and when to employ them. Even if you yourself don’t believe in the merit of them. Like they are effective. They’ve been around for thousands of years.

And I mean philosophers, even in ancient Greece were getting into fatal, you know, conflicts with each other over ideologies too. So I don’t, I don’t even know how much of an extremist thing it is, if anything. Now with social media, you don’t even have to read a book anymore like it used to be. Oh my God, the masses are going to become radicalized because they can all read and publish books and now it’s like a next iteration of that of the people that don’t even want to bother the read or write books. They can just have their thoughts or opinions known and broadcast in these like, like large scales so they get the same type of reach without even having to do as much legwork.

And now the AI aspect. I could almost create a radicalized AI and just have that AI pump out non stop rhetorical, emotionally charged stuff. Like we could very likely in our lifetime see a cult or an extremist group that is created solely from AI prompts. Like they, they didn’t even get an actual cult leader. They just got some person that’s sending out these crazy, you know, like news chain emails and then come to find out that it was chat GPT behind it the whole time. You know, I didn’t even think about that. But you’re absolutely correct in that regard.

You know, AI gods did some people will, will take as their own. Yeah, it’s, it’s fascinating. I mean it’s, it’s really strange and it, it’s just a weird time to be alive, that’s for sure. The part that I find the most fascinating about this Izzy and Cole A is the Weekend at Bernie’s aspect. That’s just, it’s a hilarious image. The hilarious visual like, yeah, to the death. And then you just flop out on the couch and they’re like, we know you’re not dead. And they have to stop to take shot and everything. It’s such a silly aspect of it.

It’s like the laziest version of sovereign citizen theory. Like, you don’t even say, I’m not driving, I’m traveling. The cop is like, knock, knock, knock. Hey, do you have license and registration? You just completely go placid, right? You just. Yeah. Toddler would do this. Is a toddler throwing a tantrum? 100. Yeah. I mean, and then to think that, like, that’s the person who came up with this ideology and then their members are actually dying in the process, like, that’s wild. You know, again, it makes me think of. It reminds me of Manson. Manson sent his cronies out to, to do his bidding.

But like, it’s just such odd behavior, you know, say, because what. To what end does it even serve? Like, what, what purpose are they fulfilling by doing some of the things they were doing? Now, some of it was certainly situational. You know, like the, the person’s property that they were squatting on, that guy wanted to remove them. So they had tried to kill him. And then the border patrol agent was, I’m assuming, trying to stop them because they had firearms in the car. And then that led to a gun battle. So those situations certainly seem like it was more of like a means to survive and it wasn’t.

It doesn’t appear like they were just making like a hit list of people to go try and kill. It was situational, but nevertheless, it’s still dangerous because of what they believe. It’s like, like, okay, are you just gonna kill a cop because you get pulled over? Or like, I don’t know. Well, these are ideological opponents to them. Right. Landlord. Being a landlord at all is kind of seen as. You might as well be, you know, Satan himself to, like, the antifa crowd. And Satan might not even be the right analogy here. Right? Because usually if you’re advocating sharing space in your brain with two different identities, two different genders, embracing like the.

The androgynous aspect of that almost feels like a Satan. And I don’t mean this in a religious way. I mean in a ideological, Luciferian slash Satanic way of like worshiping Baphomet. Not because of child sacrifice and blood worship, but worshiping Baphomet in that it embraces this androgynous blendings of the sacred male and the sacred feminine, and that you’re somehow elevating beyond the normal consensus of society. Right. Because you’ve embraced this sort of like, far out concept. It kind of feels that you can throw that satanic angle at this same particular group because of that one particular aspect of the ideology.

Well, I mean, and who’s to say that it didn’t come from that? I’m not convinced that. I still haven’t seen enough. Enough evidence yet. There’s not enough about Lasota’s early life. But I wouldn’t be surprised if in their youth there were some elements of, like, you know, and again, I’m not saying that they were in, like, a satanic cult or anything like that, but, like, maybe they were like a, you know, an edgy teenager who believed in Satanism. And so, like, maybe that’s where some of these ideas came from. Then there are. Because what I have seen in the past.

Okay, this is just. Again, this is just my opinion, but what I have seen is it does appear that people who traditionally grew up in, like, religious, you know, and I’m just gonna say, like, Christian backgrounds, they grow up and they feel betrayed by it. They don’t like it, and so then they leave it. And then in place of it, they search for philosophies, and that’s how you end up becoming, you know, looking and finding something like rationalism or, you know, you know, being. Becoming like a. Oh, God. What’s that guy’s name? Sam something. Who’s. He was the guy that used to go on Jordan Peterson’s podcast all the time.

He’s an atheist, kind of Buddhist, but he runs a podcast. I’m drawing a blank. Oh, God. Yeah. Anyways, I mean, Russell Brand. No, not Russell Brand. The guy. He’s the guy that said that he didn’t care if Hunter Biden had a garage full of dead babies or something like that. Oh, right. You know. You know what I’m talking. I don’t know the name. I remember the quote. Oh, same here. I think it’s Sam Harris. I think it’s Sam Harris. You know, people listening can. Can look it up for themselves, but he. He really did say that.

He’s. He’s. That’s batshit. He’s an atheist slash Buddhist who talks about, like, spirituality and stuff like that, but at the same time also doesn’t believe in a God. I think that it makes sense why people who still have an upbringing in religion then find themselves looking for a new home. And then it doesn’t. Shouldn’t be surprising that they will land into something like Satanism or this other philosophy that branches out. And it’s all. And it’s an attempt to find something and replace something that they grew up with because they need to have something they can’t. You know, it’s Just like a place filler.

And if you’re already in the mind space to accept something new, then any philosophy will do, as long as it meets whatever criteria you’re looking for. The zizzy and criteria almost seems like for the members, it was about lashing out at authority figures because there’s a dead landlord, there’s a dead border security guard, and I believe one of the other victims were the parents of a member, which about as close as you can get to like the direct authority figure. So maybe they’re all just working through mommy and daddy issues in various levels. Yeah. A rejection of authority.

I would like to know more about Zizzle Soda’s upbringing. I. I would like to get to the, to the details of that. I’ve. I would really like to interview Zizzle Soda and get into some of the details of that person’s life because I want to know what’s going on there. But I just wouldn’t be surprised, you know, specifically for Zizzle Soda, I would not be surprised if there was some kind of religious upbringing that led them astray and then they felt estranged from their family and then went down a path of like learning about these different philosophies or something to something that.

To that effect. That could be a very frustrating interview. It’s where you sit down and you’re like, ziz, I know you’re alive. Like this. I know you’re not dead. Come on, answer the question. Yeah, stop pretending. I know you’re alive. Yeah. I mean, but for them, I mean, in their philosophy, they would have something to gain because they would be getting some kind of attention from being asked questions and then they can justify their. Their actions or. Yeah, or start looking for new members again. Heaven’s Gate is still an active group. I think that maybe you literally missed the bus.

Right? Like they missed the. The comment. But you can still join Heaven’s Gate. I don’t know about people’s temple. I don’t think you can still go to Guyana if you wanted to. I think so. No. There’s a few colds that even after they come and they go, they remain active. This seems like one that without Ziz themselves, like this is a cult of personality. Like if you got recruited by Ziz directly, but it doesn’t seem like the tenants of this cult’s belief is strong enough to recruit on its own. Right. You just say, we believe in this Nuremberg style retroactive punishment of all meat eaters.

I’m sure you can get some people on board on that. But yeah, everyone’s going to turn into a mall ninja and try and stab a landlord with a samurai sword. I don’t think so. Yeah, but I do, I do think again, like I said, you know, before, I would not be surprised if there were connections to Antifa because this, this kind of stuff, like when you really dig into the true nature of Antifa, like this is the kind of stuff that you see in Antifa. There’s a, quite a bit of mental illness involved with Antifa. But then there people ideologically like, similar to these beliefs that you see in the Zizian cult, it seems also a notoriously hard group to corral.

Like even if you were at least dealing with right wing extremist or militia members, you can rally around say like a second amendment or some, some sort of documentation where it’s like, hey, even if we’re not all on the same page on everything, we’re all on this page. When it comes to Antifa or these anarchist groups, it almost seems the only, the only thing that they share in common is not liking any sort of structure or rules, which makes it very hard in order to, you know, come to any kind of consensus. Even when you see these antifa led groups, they start to deteriorate.

Once one person learns how to game the system, once one person doesn’t do the mic check or doesn’t pass the baton and let the next person get a voice, if someone doesn’t stand up for that and, and sort of like cut them down, then it, it actually forms a hierarchy. And having a hierarchy is like the antithesis of what they’re supposed to stand for. So at some point, like they have to do the exact thing that they’re fighting against. And this seems very specific to this like antifa slash anarchist sort of ideology. Other ideologies they play by the books.

Like they actually embrace hierarchies. Yes, yeah, I mean, and that, and I think that that kind of summarizes left wing ideology. Let me clarify. Extremist left wing ideology. And it makes complete sense why they fall apart, why they kind of like it’s like all or nothing. But then it’s like even within like political landscapes, like, like if you’re not extremist enough, like you start leaving people behind. I read this post the other day from Reddit where it was this person saying like that they were looking for a left wing group and that they keep finding groups that they like, but then they keep leaving the group because the groups are too extreme.

And if they say this thing wrong or if they do this thing, one thing wrong, they’re harshly criticized and so they can’t find a group that they like. And so of course, as you could imagine in the comments section, it’s like, maybe that’s the problem, duh, you know, like if your group is so extreme that you can’t ever do anything right and that the only answer is to continually up the ante of extremism, like where do you go from there? This is another, I think, fascinating aspect of cult mentality that, and if you look at any religion in history too, like, like technically they all kind of start as cults until they get big enough to become tax exempt.

But usually the, the earlier are you on. So if you’ve got a group of 10 people, every single one of those 10 people has to be a zealot. You, you can’t be a lukewarm initiate of a brand new religion or a brand new political group and just kind of be, you know, like a fair weather about it. You have to actually be balls to the wall extremist because otherwise the group itself fizzles out. It can only survive with, with pure zealots. And you get all the pros and cons with that. And it takes, I don’t even know what the, the requirement is in terms of like length or size.

But at a certain point, once you’ve got just non stop zealots all professing something, then you’ll eventually start to get normies and then you can polish off the rough edges. And most of the time they will kick out those original zealots that created the religion or the cult to begin with because now they are so extreme that they’re going to start sort of rejecting or, or de, incentivizing the masses of normies that want to join. So they’ll, they’ll get kicked out or they’ll be put into positions where they don’t interact with the outside world as much because they can’t have that sort of influence.

But it’s weird. It’s almost the same as a small startup company that gets bought by a larger corporation. And now it’s like you gotta fire off all the people that were there to create it because the corporation doesn’t want these entrepreneurial mindsets of these like people that are constantly like let’s, let’s disrupt the industry. It’s like, wait a minute, the industry just bought you. Like you can’t disrupt us. We own you now. And I feel that the same exact thing happens with cults and religions. It gets to that certain size, and they gotta fire all the founders.

That’s right, yeah. And then if they don’t, you get like the. The rationes in that were in Oregon. Right. Like example. Yeah. You know, like, look what happened when they didn’t. They just kept taking more and more and more people, and people kept getting more and more and more extreme until the whole thing exploded. And then you got some rogue member trying to poison the people in the village, you know, in the town next to them. And then you have to start, you know, there’s getting. You’re getting into gunfights on the border. So now you got to arm your people.

And it’s like you went from being like a commune of hippies to like a prison camp. You know, they could have done it. I think that they just had the time period wrong. If. If that particular cult had tried to do the same thing a hundred years prior, it might have had more traction. But because it was happening in the 80s and 90s, there was just too much, I think, media coverage and there was too much public ridicule that then gets spread, and then they sort of, like, lose a lot of that. Like, imagine, like, could the Morphin.

Could the Mormons have created their entire religion if they started in the 1980s as opposed to, like, the 1780s? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel that. But I mean, it’s like. Isn’t it a telltale sign, though, of all of these groups that, like, inevitably is just doomed to fail? I mean, like, the Rationishi is like. It did start out really good. Like, if you watch that documentary Wild, Wild Heart on Netflix. I mean, Osho, you know, for. For what it’s worth, I’ve read some of his books, and some of his ideas are pretty good. I actually have, you know, found some things that he said interesting.

And the stuff that happened, I don’t think necessarily was a result of him, but as a result of people in his group just kind of falling apart and going nuts. But again, you know, like, what could you have done differently? You know, like, I don’t know, could you have just done that in the middle of nowhere where there wasn’t a nearby town to interfere with you? I don’t know. I mean, it seemed like what became the problem is that they just allowed everybody to come out there, and then they started getting some mentally ill individuals and some prisoners, convicts, people getting out of prison.

And it seemed like those groups of people were the ones that kind of started making things more on the extreme side. But I don’t know. I Mean, in the case of Osho, it was like his direct, not advisor, but his assistant, like the lady that was running it. What he could have done was probably like, the first time, you’re driving back onto your compound and you notice there’s a bunch of armed guards with AK47s. Yeah. Hey, guys, let’s lose the gut. Let’s soften up a little bit. We’re big enough now that we don’t need to project that.

Of that particular image. That could have been something he did. And I feel that. And I think I’ve seen that documentary. But the criticism would be that Osho couldn’t just continuously be detached from the things that were happening directly in support of him. Like, he had to actually come out and say, stop doing this. But in effect, I think he also realized that, like, that was his main supporter base. And you start criticizing the zealots, right? It was the. It’s not necessarily Osho that’s getting everyone to sign up. It’s Osho and the Zealots. So now Osho splinters from the zealots.

Well, now you. That’s how factions start. This is how denominations and religions start. Because now you got three zealots will join their own thing and. Oh, shows his own thing. And. And I think as a way to avoid that particular type of conflict, he just kind of played along until it became way out of his hands. Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, if you think about, you know, had the Zizians not been caught, I think that this is exactly what it would have turned into. You know, like their group wasn’t that big. So I think it really would have only been a matter of time before something like that would have inevitably happened.

I mean, maybe that’s exactly. If you think about it. I mean, they killed the landlord, they killed a border Patrol agent. You know, they were actively doing things that were too extreme that they could. Could, you know, not handle, that inevitably either got their members killed or incarcerated. And so, you know, I don’t know. I mean, it seems entirely reasonable that. That the Zizvian cult, in quotes, that that was just a faction of a slightly larger ideology that was so specific. Like, you can rinse and repeat this group of 10 people over and over again, probably another 10 times, and they would eat.

And it’s convenient. They don’t really call themselves anything. They don’t have a bigger name because they were just the test faction that was sort of the. The trial that got sent out into the world. And maybe they’re someone’s revising and refining what iteration two of this might be. Well, I mean it’ll be, it’ll be telling if that is the case. It would be telling because we’ll see another one. You know, I mean again, this feels like a branch of, of, of antifa, you know, like this is the same kind of people, the crunchy vegan types that are willing to arm themselves and firebomb, you know, like I, I would put money that we will see another version of this in the near future.

Oh well, I’ll keep my eye out for it. I know you will too. What, what else you got on the horizon, man? Like you’ve been talking behind the scenes to me about looking into some of like the satanic panic and SRA type stuff. Is that, is that a rabbit hole that you’re starting to go down now? Yes. I don’t know what that looks like. I’m still in like the research phase of it, but I, I am interested in people who claim to be survivors of satanic ritual abuse. There’s. The stories are extreme, you know, and so it’s hard to know, you know what I mean? Like what you, what you have, you and I have discussed is like why you know, would somebody lie that and if they’re not lying then that means that there is some seriously horrible things happening behind the scenes.

And so I think it’s worthy of investigating and looking into. I don’t know what it’ll lead to, but in the current thing that I’m doing now, I’m still working on research and my current research is working on like the behavior of trolling and how it’s tied to antisocial behavior and, and you know, I don’t know if I’ve talked to you about this specifically or not, but like the way that we define is not trolling. Like you’re. Lots of people troll, you know, like you can comment on somebody’s Twitter post and piss them off and you could consider that trolling.

We’re more talking about people who are on the extreme end of this where they’re like this, they do this every day. They’re chronically online shit posting or you know, commenting on people’s things just to piss them off and get them mad. I just read, I read an article, a peer reviewed article not too long ago talking about there are people who will call help lines like an Amazon helpline because a lot of companies policies for customer support is that you can’t hang up the phone until the call is over unless they’re threatening you. And it Gets verbally abusive, then you can hang up.

But as long as it’s not stepping over those boundaries of being verbally abusive or threatening, you can’t hang up the phone until the call is satisfied and over with. So some of these people that are like extreme trolls, they will keep people on the phone for hours, just fucking with them because it’s funny, because they’re sadistic. And so this is tied to dark personality traits, which is one of the things I’m interested in. Another technique from Scientology, I think, is called bull baiting. And it’s essentially the same premise of knowing how to evoke violent responses, how to work someone up to the point where they do something that now makes it so either you can hang up the phone on them, or you can call the authorities, or, yes, you can now prove that, oh, you are clearly a violent person now because they were able to antagonize you over this long period of time.

There was also, in my days as a game developer, when you get deep into game theory, outside of just like, the philosophical, but like actual video game game theory, there is a very specific class of player called the Griefer, and that they derive their enjoyment from just simply griefing other people. The. The most basic premise. And this doesn’t mean that you have to be born a broken person or that you, you know, you’ve got a chip on your shoulder. Griefing for a lot of people might start out when kids realize they have way more fun camping out at, like, a spawn point and just taking people out in a game as soon as they spawn, which isn’t really in the nature of the game.

Right. It’s sort of this weird workaround. They found an exploit, and they know how. How, like, exploitative. This is the same thing. I mean, when I was growing up, it was the. The people that realize in Street Fighter 2, you could just keep sweeping the leg over and over again, and they could never get a single combo off. And it becomes its own strategy. But part of it is like reveling in the frustration you’re causing this other person, knowing that you found a loophole that they can’t also engage with. And that becomes, again, you don’t have to be broken to be like, why is it that I find it more fun to just keep sweeping the leg and seeing this person gets frustrated than actually playing the game and learning how to beat them on merit? And then it.

Then it becomes a rationalization, which I think is where, like, the philosophy and all of the, like, the zealousness comes in where Once you can rationalize, well, I’m not doing this. Clearly the game designers made it so you can do this. Therefore I’m doing the most rational thing possible by exploiting this little loophole. Everyone should be exploiting this loophole. That’s how you rarely play the game. And once you can rationalize it to yourself now you have no qualms doing that forever. And that’s slowly how that grief or mentality kind of builds up. Well, the game was made this way.

And then you can extrapolate that to, well, that’s how reality works. That’s how God made me. Or that’s how, you know, the, the way that like just human nature is. So why not exploit that over and over again? 100 and griefing is actually in our definition. So. And I don’t know how much time you have, so I don’t want to, I don’t want to burn up all your time, but I can get into like a little bit of the research that we’re doing. We’re in phase two. Phase one was actually creating a new assessment to measure trolling because currently in the, in the current literature, there’s only one real assessment that all of the research uses and it’s called the Gait.

Gait Global Assessment of Internet Trolling. But it’s only four questions. It’s a four question assessment and only one of the questions pertains to gaming. So it’s not, it’s just not a good measurement. What are the four questions? Oh God, I’d have to pull them up. But you can, you can look it up. Let’s save that. It’s actually sounds like a fascinating topic for another show. Is we can, we can assess ourselves in the audience. Are you a troll? Oh, and if they are, and if they are, I’d love to talk to them because I need to get some more details.

But yeah, but I’d love to come back and talk about this because I’ve done quite a bit I’ve talked about in my book. Phase two of my research just got approved at my university and so we’re getting ready to launch that too. Oh, congratulations, man. No, that, that actually sounds like a perfect launching off point for the next one. So I guess let people know where they can find you and your works and what your book’s called and where to go and buy your book and all the things. Yeah, man. My book is what’s under the Mask and you can find it at Amazon.

I also have a podcast called what’s under the Mask? And you can find that anywhere you listen to podcasts. If you want to get in contact with me or if you’re interested in talking to me about anything, you can find me on X. X is where I do most of my stuff days and you can find my handle at Cameron Harmon 91 and yeah, I’m there. Feel free to message me or hit me up if you’ve got questions about some of the work I’m doing. I appreciate your time as always man, and I’ve got a busy day of posting to get back to so I need to go.

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