Face to Face with a Former Chinatown Gangster Turned NYPD Detective

➡ The text discusses the power dynamics of gangs in New York City’s Chinatown, particularly the Flying Dragons, Ghost Shadows, and Dongguan. It also tells the story of Michael Moy, who grew up in Chinatown and was part of a Chinese gang before becoming a New York City Police Department officer. The text explores the structure of Chinese gangs, comparing it to the Italian mob, and discusses the process of joining these gangs. It also highlights the challenges Moy faced in transitioning from a gang member to a police officer.
➡ The text discusses the initiation process and structure of Chinese gangs in New York City’s Chinatown. The initiation involves a ritual in front of a General Kwan statue, pledging loyalty in Cantonese, and offering blood from the middle finger, symbolizing loyalty. The gangs, namely the Flying Dragons, Ghost Shadows, and Dongwan, had a strong hold on Chinatown, controlling all activities. However, the Chinese gangs’ influence was short-lived, from the 1960s to mid-90s, due to federal crackdowns, unlike the Italian mafia which had more time to establish their power and structure.
➡ The text discusses the decline of Chinese gang activity in New York City, largely due to the RICO Act. Many gang members fled the country, while others moved their criminal activities underground. The main businesses of these gangs were loan sharking and running gambling houses. The text also shares the story of a former gang member who was inspired to leave the gang life and join the NYPD after reading about a police officer who forgave his shooter.
➡ The speaker shares his journey from being involved in Asian gangs to becoming a business owner and eventually joining the NYPD. Despite his past, he managed to run several legitimate businesses, thanks to the help of a mentor. He also discusses the NYPD’s recruitment process, which included thorough background checks and surveillance. The speaker also highlights the differences between the Italian and Chinese gangs, particularly in terms of money handling and loyalty.
➡ Mike, a former NYPD officer, was assigned to work in Chinatown due to his ability to speak the language. He spent nine years on foot patrol before moving to detective work, focusing on Asian gang activity. After 17 years as a detective, he spent two years with the Asian Hate Crime Task Force. Now retired, Mike uses his YouTube channel, Chinatown Gang Stories, to share experiences and discourage others from joining gangs.
➡ A man involved in home invasions in the 1990s was caught, served his time, and two of his accomplices were deported. Years later, as a detective, the narrator saw a wanted poster of the same man, indicating he had returned to his criminal ways. The man was arrested again last month and sentenced to 12 years. The narrator reflects on the nature of criminals, some of whom seem unable to change, and discusses his experiences with various gangs and his recent retirement.
➡ Being a police officer is challenging, especially in high-crime cities. The story highlights a man named Michael, who transitioned from being a gang member to a police officer, influenced by an incident where a cop forgave his attacker. The narrative emphasizes that good people can sometimes do bad things, but it doesn’t necessarily make them bad people. Michael’s journey from a gang member to a police officer is shared in his book, providing insights into his life and Chinese culture.

The three main gangs that had power in New York City’s Chinatown was the Flying Dragons, Ghost Shadows and Dongguan. Nothing goes on in Chinatown without going through them. It doesn’t matter who you always try at. You’re from what gang you’re from. It’s not gonna happen. They have no power there. It’s the same thing with the Italian mob. It don’t matter where you’re from. You could be the Mafia from Italy coming down to Bensonhurst, a little Italy. They’re not gonna have that stronghold there. Don’ Those three gangs had their territory. They had Chinatown in lockdown. I just couldn’t understand how someone can forgive somebody like that.

You know, somebody did that to him. But he forgave the kid. And the reason why he forgave the kid was that he was a product of his environment. And when I read that in the newspaper, it was the first time I ever heard of that term. And I just. I remember reading about it and I thought to myself, you know, am I a product of my environment, like the environment that I’m in? And I just, like, knew that eventually I had to get out of that environment, environment that I was stuck in. It was also with the BTK gang.

You know, they were pretty wild back then. They were quick to shoot. And, you know, back in those days, they were. There were no cameras around, you know, witnesses not going to talk. So they could have got away easy if they just decided to kill me. I thought I was going to die then, right there and then when the gun was pointed inches away from my chest. Hey, everyone, welcome to another sit down with Michael Francis. Hope everybody is doing well. All is very good, very blessed on this end. My friends, as always, all the praise, honor, glory and Thanksgiving goes to our God for that, because he deserves it.

Very special guest today. His name is Michael Moy. You know, I’ve talked to other mafia guys. I had Dominic on here. You know that I’ve sat down with Sammy Gravano, not on my platform, but on his platform and others. And I’ve talked to people from the Aryan Brotherhood, I’ve talked to Hell’s Angels. I’ve spoken to a lot of different people associated with organized crime groups. One time I’ve spoken to one person that was associated with a Chinese organized crime group. And today I’m going to speak to another. His name is Michael Moy, and he grew up in Chinatown in New York, an area, a town.

I’m very familiar with Little Italy, but bordered Chinatown, you know, downtown Manhattan. Went there many times. I used to go to a place called the Limehouse. Believe it or not, my favorite Italian after hour food place was in Chinatown. Not Umberto’s, not across the board. I used to love the Limehouse. They closed it down. And a lot of great Chinese restaurants there. And Michael Moy grew up there and was once a member of a Chinese gang. He got involved in that. But then something miraculous happens. You know, he left that life and became a New York City Police Department officer, believe it or not.

How do you go from gangs to being a cop? Well, that’s what Michael Moy did. Very interesting story. He was a cop for 25 years, 26 years he retired. But you know, what did that cause him? Did he have to worry about retaliation from the Chinese gangs because he became a cop? Why did he become a cop? What led him to go so extreme from one organization to another, from a criminal organization to a police officer? Radical change. Not going to get into it. Let’s find out. Let’s hear what Michael has to say. Very interesting conversation.

He did write a book. He does have a platform where he talks about many, many, many stories about Chinatown. Very interesting place. You know what, something about the Chinese they really do within themselves. And that’s something that we didn’t do in the Mafia. I asked him differences because he knows people from my former life. Obviously he’ll get into what he can about that. But you know, we dealt with anybody, you know, but Chinese, they’re pretty clannish in that regard. They stay within their own Chinese community. But a very interesting conversation. With no further delay, my very special guest, Michael Moy.

Michael, I have to tell you, in the past couple of years, I would say that I’m on YouTube. I have interviewed Mexican mafia, mafia guys, Aryan Brotherhood, Hell’s Angels, and just about every group you can imagine. But I’ve never had the opportunity to interview or sit down with somebody that’s been in the Chinese gang. So this is, this is a first for me and it’s a good experience for me and I’m sure my viewers are going to enjoy it. And I have to say you have an incredible story. When you talk about a turnaround in light and a transformation, I think you’re the epitome of that.

Going from a street gang and then into the nypd. It’s just an amazing story and amazing, you know, transformation in your life. So I really want to get into it. And again, thank you so much for appearing. I would, I have, I offer all my guests a glass of Francis wine. But since you’re not sitting in the studio, I can only toast to you. But maybe, maybe one day you’ll get the chance to enjoy it in New York. Yes, yes. Whenever you’re in New York again. All right, Mike, so I have the first thing I have to ask you.

You know, I went to Chinatown so many times. Little Italy, being across the street there, obviously, I used to eat at the Limehouse all the time. Used to eat all the Chinese restaurants. I love Chinese food. So I’m very familiar with Chinatown. And while I was in prison in mdc, New York, I had the opportunity to. To be a lot of, you know, a lot of the Chinese gang guys were in there with me. Couldn’t communicate too well because a lot of them didn’t speak English really clearly. We’ve got to know a few guys actually got along with them.

But I have to ask you something. I’m sure you’re familiar with my former associates in the mob, the Mafia. And, you know, we had a certain structure, and we were organized in a way that I’m sure you’re familiar with. Can you just explain for my viewers and for me, actually, is there a structure with the gangs, the Chinese organized crime as it exists in New York? Absolutely. Definitely. It’s very similar to the Italian mafia. With the Italian mafia, you have the associate, if I’m correct, and then you have the soldier. And then from there, you have what you call a captain.

And then you have the underboss and the boss. Am I correct? That’s correct, yes. It’s just like with the Chinese gangs. I’m not talking about the triad. I’m talking about the Chinese gangs in the East Coast, New York City’s Chinatown. You also have the associates, the people who hang around the. The street soldiers who were initiated into the gang. Then you have the soldiers who follow a daima. The daima is equivalent to the rank of a captain. The dailo is above the daima, which is equivalent to the rank of, I would say the underboss. And then you have the dilo above.

Above that. So, I mean, if you’re going to put it into, like, let’s say, I mean, we don’t recall anyone that’s a rank above us. We call dai low. So you can say a dai low die or die die low. Above that, dai lo. Or you could say a dragon head, but dragon head, I would. I would use that term for more. Like with the. The Tang Association. The leader of the Tang association, it’s separate. The Chinese gang is an entity. And then you have the tongs, which is another entity. And then you have the triads.

The triads are more like international based. The triads are based in Hong Kong. Whether it’s in Hong Kong or Taiwan. Or you have a triad sect in Canada, in Toronto area, it’s Chinatown. So it’s different. So people. People think the gangs and the triads and the tongs are the same, but it’s not. So. But the structure is very similar to the Italian mob. Very similar. And let me ask you, Michael, what’s the process? In other words, you have a young man like yourself that’s grown up in the neighborhood. You see some of these gang guys, you get attracted to them.

What’s the process of you getting recognized or getting proposed? We used to say that in our life that you couldn’t just go up to somebody and say he’d like to join. Somebody had to propose you, vouch for you. And then obviously you had an initiation period that could last for months or years, you know, depending upon the situation at that time. Is it similar with the Chinese gangs? I guess in a way is similar. Because it’s all based on the person who you follow, right? It’s if they have an eye for you and they see that there’s potential in you, then they’re going to initiate you.

So it’s basically whoever you follow. So that person generally have a good eye for, you know, picking out the kids who. Who know they’re easily either manipulated, molded, or they just crave for that, you know, brotherhood. It all depends on the individual that you follow. You know, what they see in you. And is there kind of like a pledge or recruit period where you had to do certain things to prove yourself worthy? And then is there an actual initiation like we used to go through? Yes. Usually the daima would be doing the climb with you together.

So that’s how they gain their trust in you. And then they’ll bring you into the initiation ritual. The ritual is there’s always a General Kwan statue that, you know, we do the ritual in front of. We do the whole incense routine. And the pledge, it’s always done in Cantonese. So the. The words that’s spoken is very poetic. It’s just very similar to the Italian mafia. You don’t betray your brotherhood, and you would die for them. And don’t rat and all that. And then you burn the incense and you burn the yellow paper. And you pour the white rice wine in front of as an offering to the General Quan.

And then that’s how you get initiated. And you prick Your middle finger. And your middle finger. It’s. It’s a sign of loyalty, because the middle in Cantonese is zhong. Zhong means loyal. So that’s why you pick the middle finger, drop the blood in there, and you offer it to General Huang. The statue. Did you say you dropped the blood in a glass of wine? Yes, the. The white wine. Is the white wine, does it symbolize anything that I’m not too familiar with? But it’s always the. The white rice wine. Oh, the rice wine. Okay, the rice wine.

And let me ask you this. You know, just from when we was. When I was on the street, we were. We always saw the Chinese gangs as being very violent, you know, and I even saw that. You know, I saw a couple of incidents when I was in MDC with them that they certainly knew how to take care of themselves. That’ for sure. But they were known as a violent street gang. Am I saying that right? Pretty much. You’re pretty much accurate with that, you know, because they just need to prove themselves. You know, the. The Chinese.

I mean, when other ethnic groups go to Chinatown, you know, like, for example, they do any crime there. I remember seeing a news segment on that where they beat up these kids, going in there making trouble. But don’t forget the. The Chinese, the Asians are built differently. You know, they’re small in stature. So basically, in a street fight, there’s no such thing as fair fight. You know, that. You know. Right. We do whatever we can to win. Right. You know, so if it takes violence, it takes a different level of violence. Then I know for a fact that they’re up to it, you know, especially in Chinatown.

All right, quick interruption. If you really want to get some insight into me, and I mean insight, Zoom calls, Q and A’s, behind the scenes information stories I’ve never told before. You want to become part of the elite, then join the family. We have over a thousand members already. Michaelfrancis.com family. It’s an offer that you shouldn’t refuse. Now, let’s get back to the show, and let me ask you, what was the level of influence? You know, obviously Mafia. We had tremendous influence not only in New York or other cities like Chicago, New Orleans, where we had real strongholds.

What do you think the level of influence was with some of the Chinese gangs, especially in the New York area? And I think you were predominantly. Would you say that that was the strongest presence that you had was in New York? Yeah, New York City’s Chinatown. The three main gangs that had power in New York City’s Chinatown was the Flying Dragons, Ghost Shadows, and Dongwan. Nothing goes on in Chinatown without going through them. It doesn’t matter who you always try at. You’re from what gang you’re from. It’s not gonna happen. You know, they have their stronghold there.

And it don’t matter if you’re from the West Coast. If you’re the Hua Tang or the Joe Boys and you’re coming down to New York, they have no power there. The same thing with the Italian mob, right? You have Little Italy, maybe you have Bensonhurst, Howard Beach. It don’t matter where you’re from. You could be the mafia from Italy coming down to Bensonhurst a little early. They’re not going to have that stronghold there, right? So. But those three gangs had their territory, and each gang had their streets, perspective streets. The Flying Dragons had Powell Street, Doyle Street.

Ma street, and Bayard street belong to the Gold Shadows Division. Street and East Broadway belong to the Dongguan. They had. They had. They had Chinatown in lockdown. So if the Triant want to do anything with the. For example, they want to sell their heroin in New York, they’re going to have to get in touch with the Tongs. And the Tongs get in touch with the respective gang that they deal with. And that’s where they get their ties, they make their connection. Let me ask you, would you consider that they operated similar to what we did? We have five families in New York, and even though we were separate and distinct, at times we worked together, at times we had our issues with one another.

Would you consider it kind of the same? I would say that Italian mafia had so much more time to build their relationship between the five families. The Chinese gangs, basically, they started around the 1960s into the. The mid-90s, and it was gone. The. It was over after that. The. The feds picked them up. The first wave was in 83, 84, and then the second wave was 93, 94, and that was. Was gone. But the Italians had had, in the United States, had so many years to build up that power, to build up the unity, the structure, the organization, and they had that much time to build it.

Whereas the Chinese, they didn’t get that far. They did not get that far until the feds came down and decimated them. Yeah, it makes sense. And would you say that it is. Was it the racketeering act that really did the number on them? Oh, of course. Because after the Italians, they came after the Chinese, and then after the Chinese, they went after the Russians. You remember, they Went after the Russians with all the fraud that they were doing with the insurance scams and the Medicaid fraud. And then after the Italians, they went after the cartels. And just recently they went after the cartels and now they’re using the vehicle against the politicians.

Yeah, Enrico is. It’s like a lot of power in that rico. So. Yeah, Mike, would you agree? A lot of people, you know, believe that because John Gotti was so out there and, you know, so in front of the media that he played a big part in taking down the mob. And I’ve always said, no, there were other guys maybe not as out there as John Gotti, but Joe Colombo was a big presence. A lot of guys were out there. But it was really the RICO statute that did the most damage for all of these organized crime groups.

Would you agree with that? Now that I think about it, in a way, you know, they push for that RICO act and use it as a weapon. I think that was when Ronald Reagan wanted to, you know, do a war. War on crime. And that’s when. Yeah, I think the RICO act has a lot to do with it. It just gives the government too much power. You know, when you get too much power, then it becomes dangerous in a way. No, you’re so right, Mike. You know, and they. They originally created that law to go after organized crime, but then they started using against Wall street, against politicians.

You know, you give the government an inch and they take it as far as they could take it. So it’s done a lot of damage to a lot of people, not only in organized crime, but everywhere else. Yeah, because it’s so blood based. I mean, you can use the RICO act against these big corporations like Amazon, Apple. Eventually that may happen. Well, they used it against Trump, so, you know, they can go as far as they want with it. Yeah, I had three RICO indictments. I had two federal and one state. Very hard to defend, obviously very costly.

And you know, one thing that I noticed too in the Mafia, Cosa Nostra, that because of the RICO act, because of the amount of time that people were getting because of murder, now became not only a state crime, but a federal crime because it was one of the, you know, the acts of the RICO statute that a lot of guys started to flip and become informants. Did you notice if that happened also in the. In the Chinese gangs? Yes, yes, I noticed that happening. A lot of people were facing heavy time, so a lot of people flipped.

But the thing is, with the Chinese, if they didn’t flip, they became fugitives. Really, it’s a. There’s a lot of fugitives out there. You know, they, they got hit with the indictment and they just fled the country. You know, if they’re able to sneak into this country, they can sneak out of the country just as quick, you know, and yeah, it’s not like the Italians where they’re here for so many generation. You know, they, you know, their, their, their family is here. Every. Everybody’s here, you know, but for, for the Chinese, they could just pick up and leave.

A lot of them from the 70s and 80s, they just pick up and left. So would you say that, you know, it’s interesting because after the RICO statue, which did the most damage, I would say right into the 90s, and, you know, my life, my former life is nowhere near the same. I mean, guys are still there. It still does exist. You know, I’ll give you an example. When I was in that life, 70s, 80s, into the early 90s, there wasn’t a day went by that either the New York Post, Long Island Press, Newsday, or New York Times where there wasn’t a story about the mob, somebody, anybody.

Every day, you’d see something. Every other day, without a doubt. Now, I mean, I read the New York Post online every morning, maybe every six months, maybe you’ll read something and sometimes not even that, that, you know, that regular. Do you notice too, that the Chinese gangs now don’t have the same presence that they had before this RICO act, you know, in the 80s and 90s. They don’t have anymore. Especially in New York City. They don’t. It’s gone. No, they don’t. There’s no more gang activity. As far as under a gang name. There’s no more Ghost Shadows, Flying Dragons.

Don’t want. It was since the mid-90s, there is none. I mean, a lot of them, the criminals, they move underground. They, they’re targeting. I mean, they doing a lot of scams, maybe dealing drugs here and there, but there’s no gang activity that’s, you know, like before, no more. Wow. Nobody’s controlling these brothels and gambling houses in New York City’s Chinatown is run independently. It’s not. There’s no, no control over them. That’s why there’s so many, so much competition. I didn’t even realize that. So the RICO act and the feds really did, you know, do damage to the, to the gangs in Chinatown.

It’s amazing. Yes. Let me ask you, what was the main. What was the main business of the gangs in Chinatown? The main business is Loan shark and gambling houses. That was the main business until onion head started dealing with the heroin. And also Dice and Fujiao Po. These three were the three main gangsters who made it big with the heroin business. But back then it was mostly the gambling houses that they were pulling in the money. Protection fee from the gambling houses. They were paying the gold shadows $10,000 a week. And there was 11 gambling houses.

So that’s. You’re talking about the 70s. That’s 110,000 a week just in protection money from the gambling houses. And then loan shock and were the gambling house. The gambling houses were run by mostly Chinese and the clientele were mostly Chinese also all Chinese. The family house were run by the Tongs. Tong members or tong associates from the Tang Association. They have maybe the members or the associates or their friends who open these gambling houses. They get the okay from the Tang association. Then they pay the Tang association a cut. And then they pay the gang members to protect the place.

Protecting the place mean the place is not going to get robbed. Basically. My friends, you may not have heard, but I have now a wine branded in my name. Franz East Wine. It’s from the world’s oldest vineyards. We have something for everybody. We got beautiful alcoholic wine and of course non alcoholic wine. Big sellers. People are loving it. Get it. Tell your friends about it. The world’s first vineyards. It’s an offer that you shouldn’t refuse. So go to Franzesewine.com and, and enjoy it. Have a toast on me. Wow. So Mike, how did you get along? I mean, you were, you were involved as a.

As a young man. How did you get involved? Yeah, I got involved with a gang called the Folk chain. When it first started out, it was in the mid-80s. So it was a. A new gang that nobody ever heard of them before. And it, it was because, I guess because of bullying and I wanted a sense of belonging. And I happened to bump into this, this person who was doing recruiting. And that’s how I got involved. That’s how I got caught up with the gangs. And you were, you were a member. Did you ever become a full fledged member? It took up, let’s see, I met, I met him around 1985, 86.

And I got initiated probably sometime around, if I’m not mistaken, if I remember correctly, probably around 89 somewhat. Sometime around that time. Yeah, it took a little bit. And then you were a member for how long? I was basically I was hanging out with them from 86 up until around 94. 95, yeah. And what you Know what a transition you made? I mean, going from street gang to the nypd, how did that happen? I mean, what. What caused you to. To make such a drastic, drastic change in your life? There was a number of reasons. Not.

There’s not one particular reason, but one of the reason is because during that time, I guess, you know, being with the gang, I was doing a lot of bad things. And I’m not a person who don’t know the difference between right and wrong. But then I felt like I was. I was trapped in. In that life because it wasn’t easy to get out once you get in, because just like. Just like anything, once you. Once you get into that life, you just. It’s not easy to get out. So what happened was there was a. An incident with a young police officer named Stephen McDonald.

And, you know, he was shot and left a quadriplegic by the person who shot him. And I followed the story in the news and I read all the news articles about him back then. I would buy newspapers because I wanted to see, you know, keep. Keep track of what everybody was doing with the opposing gangs and our crew, see if. See what they were doing. So, yeah, I was following his story. And then towards. Towards the. The end, he actually forgave the kid who shot him. And I thought that, you know, this. It was beyond. It was something that I just couldn’t comprehend at that time.

Like, at that my age. I just couldn’t understand how someone can forgive somebody like that, you know, someone who did that to him. But he forgave the kid. And the reason why he forgave the kid was that he was a product of his environment. And when I read that in the newspaper, it was the first time I ever heard of that term. And I just. I remember reading about it and I thought to myself, you know, am I a product of my environment, like the environment that I’m in? And that planted a seed in my head.

And I just, like, knew that eventually I had to get out of that environment that I was stuck in. And. Yeah, and that’s probably one of the reasons why I got out and I took the written test. I believe I took it around sometime around 1990, if I’m not mistaken. And, yeah, and then they called me around 93, I believe the first time they called me, and I turned it down because I had too much going on. I was too involved with the life I had too many businesses that I was running. And then by 94, they called me again and said, it was your last chance.

And Then I just decided I gave up everything and went in and I was. So while you were in the gang, you read this story and were just so impressed by the. Or so moved, I should say not impressed by the. The officer being able to forgive his assailant that it just stuck with you. It stuck with me because it wasn’t my way of thinking. It just. It went against everything I. I was thinking at that time, because the way I grew up. And if you ever watch those Chinese martial art movies, the Shaw Brothers movies, all about revenge, it don’t matter how long it was about revenge, if you kill his sifu, then he’s gonna train in kung fu.

Whether it takes decades or a lifetime, he’s gonna come get his revenge. So I grew up watching those movies, and there’s not one movie that is not about revenge. So that’s what I had in mind. You know, it’s like, how can. How can you just forgive like that? And it made me question my own beliefs. Wow, that’s fascinating. So now when, you know, after a couple of years, when you got this last call, I mean, were you concerned getting out of that life and going, you know, to nypd, were you concerned of retaliation or, you know, how people on the street were going to accept that? What were your thoughts? A lot of things went through my mind, but I just pushed forward.

There were a lot of things that went through my mind. But don’t forget, if you. If you look at the timeline, that was the end of the Asian gangs, and that was towards the end of the. The Italian mob as well. Everything was just that. That, I guess it was the timing also. I mean, if it was a different time in my life or a different year, if you’re talking about 92 or 91, it probably would not have happened the way it happened if it was in 94, 95. Yeah, that makes sense. And let me ask you, when the NYPD recruited you, did they know that you were involved in the gangs? Did they know? Well, when they recruited me, they do their investigation.

I guess they go through their whole entire checklist and what they had, the steps that they have to do to investigate a potential applicant. And one of them was probably visiting all my neighbors. But I keep to myself, you know, so I see my neighbors as a hello and goodbye and, you know, polite, respectful. And then another thing they would do is probably interview some of friends, relatives, you know, and a lot of my friends were business owners because I had several businesses that I was running. Another thing they would do is they may Follow you, right? Follow a potential applicant.

It’s not like today where you have social media. You can find out everything about person. If they follow me, they will follow me into one of the four businesses I was running. And one of them was a 6,000 square foot billiards, a pool hall. So if a pool obviously is going to be a lot of shady characters coming in and out. But I was the owner and I was. And even back then, you know, since the age of 19, I’m always wearing basically like a blazer, business attire. And if I’m at my place of business, I’m in a suit and a tie.

So I guess that helped because the only time I ever get stopped by the, the police officers in the streets is when I’m with my friend diamond and he’s black. So I’ve been stopped multiple times by the cops. Even though I’m in a suit and you know, he’s in his, you know, street clothes. We got stopped. But generally if I’m with myself, if I’m by myself or maybe some of my Chinese friends and we’re, you know, carrying guns, we don’t get stopped. I mean that’s reality. And Mike, these businesses, were they all legitimate business or they.

Were any of them running for the. I mean, were you running any for the gang or they were all yours? They were mine. They were legitimate business. I got my first start in business thanks to an Italian guy. You know, he’s my mentor as well from Avenue U. I call him Uncle Louie. And he, he helped me with my first business. And you know, back then, the time mob controlled everything, especially in that area. You know, they control the private calling company, the, the, the, the trucking industry, the construction, even the car service. There weren’t too many car service around.

There was on time car service and there was, right. I remember Safeway call service. And I bought out on Time call service thanks to Uncle Louie paving the road for me to go into that business. Because the two Italian brothers who had that on time call service business, they had maybe a couple dozen cars. And Safeway was probably one of the biggest car service and on time and the business ran down to like two cars because I guess the two brothers moved on to bigger and better things. So Uncle Louie gave me the opportunity to move into that business.

So I came up with my share of the money and we built it up. We built up that business from two cars. We built it back up to probably about a little over a dozen cars. I kept reinvesting the money back into the Business. And I learned a lot from him. I learned a lot from him. Was he associated with any of my former associates? You know what? I don’t question that, and he doesn’t question what gang I’m in, but we know. We know. Yeah. Okay. Good enough. Yeah. I’m glad to hear you got help from an Italian guy.

That’s good. Yes, yes. And yeah. And I had a retail business on Avenue U. I believe, if I’m not mistaken, the address is 1234 Avenue U. It was like, right between Home Crest and like East 12 something somewhere around there. It used to be a bakery shop, Italian bakery shop. Then I took it over and I converted into a gift shop. And in the basement was my gambling house because a lot of Chinese people were moving into that area. And I remember during the 90s, there was a lot of shootings and killings between the Italian mob.

I don’t know what was going on, but there was a lot of killings over there. And one of the incidents I remember happening was an Italian mob guy got shot on the side of. On the side street on East 14th street right off Avenue U. I don’t know if you know who that was, because one of a friend of mine, who was a ghost shadow associate, he owned a. A barber shop right there. And I know he kept a lot of guns and different because. Because me and him used to deal with each other on certain things.

And actually he actually got locked up by the feds during robberies. He used to rob these buses going into the casino to Atlantic City, wipe clean out the whole bus. People going there and coming back. And he got locked up for that. But then when the Italian mob guy got shot, he was friends with that guy. He actually went there, pulled out his own gun to make sure that, you know, they don’t come and finish the job. Because he wasn’t dead yet at the time. Whatever it was, he stayed with the body until help came along.

So we had a close relationship with the guys on Avenue U, the Italian guys on Avenue U. And I remember there used to be a social club right there on Holmcrest, right off Avenue, uh, all the mob guys. So I don’t know what family that they’re from. I don’t. We don’t ask these things, right? You know. Yeah, I know. Without getting into it, I know exactly what you’re talking about and who you’re talking about, but we’ll leave it at that. But let me just curious. When you were part of the. The gang and you had your legal businesses, were you required at all to kick back any money to them or what was legitimate was yours.

It’s mine. Because that’s the perk of being in the gang. It’s not like the Italians. I know the Italians kick it up, but with the Chinese, it’s the dailos, the people at the top. They have their ways of making money, and basically, they’re buying our loyalty, buying our. You know, we actually build up the name for them. You see, a lot of times, it’s the people at the bottom who’s doing all the dirty work and making the dialogue look good. Because a lot of these dialogue, they don’t go out there and do do the heavy work.

I can’t name any of them, except maybe Peter Chen, Kidsai, and maybe the scientists. Everybody else, if you’re talking about guys like the leader of the btk, David Dye, Clifford Wong, you’re talking about some of these ghost shadow leaders. Later on, after Kizai, they didn’t put in any work. They’re just leaders who have a way of making a lot of money. And the money trickles down to the Dai Lo at the bottom. Dailou gives it to the Daima. Daima takes care of the soldiers. Because all these. Or all these incidents that made headlines from the soldiers.

From the soldiers, yeah. You know, and it seems like, you know, culturally, you know, the Chinese pretty well stick to their own. I mean, you did most of the dealings and business with. With other Chinese. It wasn’t that you went out and, you know, dealt with every other culture. It seems like you just kept it among yourselves. That true? In a way, it’s true. If you’re talking about the 1970s into the early 80s, because none of them spoke English, and if they did speak English, it was very limited. But then later on, you got guys like me who’s able to speak English and Cantonese, and that’s when we branched out to deal with other ethnic groups, because I was dealing with the Italians, I was dealing with the Israelis.

I was dealing with the blacks, the Caribbean blacks. I was dealing. I was dealing with everyone. I was dealing with everyone. Got it? Now, Mike, when you. When you do finally become an NYPD officer, were you. Were you specifically assigned to any of the Chinese gangs? I know it was near the end at that point. But were you assigned to Chinatown or were you just, you know, regular NYPD and got your regular beat or your regular, you know, spot that you were in, or was it specifically assigned to the Chinese? Well, there weren’t too many Chinese officers during that time.

I believe it was maybe about 500 Asian officers. And when you talk about Asians, you’re talking about, you know, Asians. It could be Southeast Asian, but maybe about two dozen of them were able to speak the language. So I got assigned to work in Chinatown, in Brooklyn’s Chinatown, and I did my foot post there. I walked my beat for nine years in Chinatown in uniform. And then eventually I was a big help during the time when there was an Asian gang or so called gang war. They’re trying to muscle in on the bus business, the dollar van business.

And basically, I gather intel, helped them gather intel and provided to the detectives. And eventually I got asked to work in the detective squad, and that’s when I got a promotion to be a detective. And I wound up working in a detective squad covering chinatown for over 15 years. So I was a detective for about 17 years, and then two years I was with the Asian hate crime Task Force. And that’s my career. I mean, they did offer me a spot to go undercover, but I respectfully turned it down because they all know my face. But the police department didn’t know, so, yeah, I had to turn that down.

They didn’t know. Yeah, you would. They would have been recognized. They didn’t understand why I would turn down position like that. Because it was a way for me to get a promotion, a raise. But they were going to change my identity. They wouldn’t give me a new identity, a new driver’s license, and with a new address. And I was supposed to go to hang out at these karaokes and pool halls and gather intel I turned down real quick. Well, let me ask you this, Mike. You have a YouTube platform now where you tell a lot of stories, Gang stories, correct? Yes, yes.

A lot of them were my childhood friends, and they came on my channel and share some of the stories with the public. You know, I mean, they’ve been convicted, they served their time, they paid their dues, you know, to the society. And now everybody’s just, you know, trying to make a living, you know, doing the right thing. And hopefully my channel, chinatown gangstories, on YouTube, will deter people from joining a gang. Because a lot of times you learn from other people’s mistakes, and hopefully this channel will do that. Well, that’s a good thing, Mike. You know, when we can use our past to try to dissuade some of these younger kids, especially from getting involved in gangs.

Because, you know, I always say this, Mike, I don’t know what your experience was, but I always called. I had a lot of friends in that life. You know, there’s an age old question. Why do good people do bad things? It doesn’t always mean that you’re a bad person. Sometimes you’re just misled and you know, things happen in life. So I don’t like to label everybody as being a bad person. But I always said that the mob life, the gang life, they’re bad, evil lifestyles because families are destroyed. I don’t know any member, any member’s family of that life that hasn’t been totally destroyed, including my own, not my wife and kids, but mother, father, brothers, sisters, just destroyed.

And so, you know, any lifestyle that does that to a family is a bad lifestyle. And you know, if you can use our experience to dissuade people of the experiences of others, I think it’s something that we almost have a responsibility to do. Let me ask you this. What. Because my viewers like to hear stories, obviously. I built this channel basically by telling mob stories with all my experiences until I ran out of stories. You know, how many can you tell? And of course we bring people like yourself on to entertain and inform people. What are some of the, I guess most outlandish or stories that really had an impact on you? Some of your experiences that you’ve had that really were impactful? Some of the bad things that you’ve seen, maybe some of the better things.

What could you, what could you tell us? One thing that really stuck to my mind is when my friend Carahead got stabbed and he almost died right there, right in front of me. And it was a battle between us and the Born to Kill gang. And he got stabbed and I was basically holding his head up, trying to keep him, tell him to stay awake and not to pass out. And he got stabbed right in the back by where his kidney was. And I just saw like a puddle of blood right, right there. And it didn’t even look like what you see in the movies where blood is spilling expired all over the place.

It looked like a, like a, like a cake, like a, like a dark, dark red is. It’s not like in the movie where you see the blood and it’s red. It is like dark, it’s like dark brown. It’s like a cake. And I’m like really? And it’s just a puddle right there. And it’s like all. It’s, it’s different than in the movies. The violence. Right. It doesn’t then the movies. That’s why like I don’t even watch movies like anymore. It’s just, it’s just so Fake like you see the real thing and, and movies just doesn’t portray it the same way, you know, and that’s one incident that sit into my mind.

And the other incident is when I had a gun pointed right to my chest. It was also with the BTK gang. You know, they were pretty wild back then. And that also, I mean, I thought I was going to die then right there and then when the gun was pointed inches away from my chest. And luckily they didn’t fire, you know, but in those days, they were quick to shoot, you know, and, and, you know, back in those days, they were. There were no cameras around, you know, witnesses not going to talk. Right. So they could have got away easy if they just decided to kill me.

A lot of things happen, and a lot of things happened to me that some things I, I could talk about and some things, you know, I won’t. But this just a lot of things that happened, especially in those days, in the 80s, you know, what New York City was like back then. I do. Gangster city. Yeah, I do. Let me ask you, you know, did you find during your years in the NYPD that New York was a violent place? Did you have incidents almost daily? You know, what was the experience like? Yeah, especially in the 80s.

You mean when, when I joined the NYPD, the violence came down already. I was like, when Giuliani was the mayor, you know, crime went down, you know, with the broken window effect that they, you know, quality of life that they targeted. So a lot of the criminals move out of New York City. But then, but if you’re Talking about the 70s, 80s and a lot of shootings in Chinatown, it doesn’t get reported. You know, my neighbor who lived downstairs from me on East Broadway, he got shot and killed. And of my friend who I, you know, who started joining, he joined the gang, the Dongwon gang, and they dealt heavily in drugs.

And I, I told him, I said, you know, it’s a different ball game when you start, you know, hanging out with the gang that deals in drugs and he got, he got killed. I, I see so many of my friends get killed and. Yeah, and they’re, you know, guys who’s, who’s close to me and who I, who you see one day and they’re gone the next, you know, it’s just. Did you. Were you ever put in a situation where you had to, you know, arrest someone that you knew on the street? As you were saying before, you know, like, bad people can also be good people, but if you’re bad and if you don’t want to change.

You’re not going to change. You know, there’s a difference. If you’re bad and you want to change and you’re willing to change for the better, there’s a difference. But some, there’s some bad people who just don’t want to change, who still living that life, you know, and in one incident, you know, I. I have a friend hang out together, used to hang out together. And we were teenagers at that time and, you know, he was into a lot of things and he went to prison, served. He did a home invasion with two of my other guys from my crew.

He joined the Gold Shadows and two guys from my crew teamed up with him and did a home invasion in Jersey. And they got, as they were driving back, they got caught by the Holland Tunnel. You know, there’s always. You always get caught when you’re entering the tunnel. Yes. That’s one thing. That’s one thing you had to avoid. I know. Going through the tunnel for sure. Yeah. So that was the 1990s. And then they did their time. Two of them got deported back to Cambodia. And then he didn’t get deported because I guess he has whatever status over here.

And then just you fast forward to like 2003, 2004. I was a newly assigned detective. I walk into my office and I see a wanted poster of his face there. So I figured he just got out of prison and he’s back to his old ways. The wanted poster, and it’s in my book, the wanted poster is of him doing home invasions in the confines of the precinct where I work at and multiple precincts in Bensonhurst because a lot of Asians are moving into Bensonhurst during that time. So he was doing home invasions over there. And I’m thinking to myself, what if I come across him? What, what am I going to do? Am I gonna arrest him? Do I turn a blind eye? Do I? There’s so many questions that went through my head, but let’s, let’s leave that out for now.

And then fast forward to last month. He got. He, he got arrested again for another robbery and he got sentenced to 12 years. 12 years last. Yeah, last month he got sentenced. So, like some people just don’t change. Don’t change. And he’s my age already or close to my age. So the thing about doing another 12 years and you’re in your 50s. Come on. You know, Mike, I agree with you there. You know, there was some guys, you probably know the names. Guy like Roy Demeo or Greg Scarpa. I’M sure you’ve heard of them both. And you know, they were bad guys.

I mean, there’s no other way to put it. They weren’t guys you wanted to be around. They weren’t pleasant, even. Gas pipe, you know, to a great degree. And people have said to me, you know, look what the mob did to those guys. And I said, you know what? In my opinion, you know, Roy DeMaio, he would have been a serial killer even if he wasn’t in the mob. It was just easier for him to be in the mob and do what he did. But he was, he was just a bad guy, you know, he was.

There was something, something wrong with him. And so it’s not that the mob actually corrupts people all the time. I’m not saying it doesn’t, but there are some people, like you said, that they just, they just don’t want to change. They are who they are and they’re not going to change. And that’s it. Well, in a way, I think with someone like Roy demeo, the mob emboldened him to kill more people. Yeah, gave him like, like a free pass, you know, I think if it was, if he didn’t join the mob, his body count would have been probably limited, I would say, because I see the male as someone who was fascinated with that life and he just wanted to belong in that organization, you know, and he killed.

Yeah, he’s a lunatic. He’ll kill for fun. Now those are, those are the scary ones, you know, like, like his, who, who was his mentor. Nino Gadget, right? Nino Gadget, yes. Yeah, he’s not gonna kill someone for fun, but he, he’s gonna do what he needs to do to, you know, get the job done. And, you know, someone like him who was at, who was probably a captain or a rank above the male, he went out there and hit the dirty work himself, you know, but it wasn’t like the male kill for fun. It’s guys like maybe Tommy Karate, who would kill someone for just, you know, who disrespected him, you know, has nothing to do with any mob things, you know.

Nah, you’re right about that, you know, and what happens to those guys? They all meet the similar fate because at some point in time where there’s such loose cannons, you know, rather than have to deal with them or worry about them, you just get rid of them. I mean, that was the, that was the thought process, you know, back then. What do you need this guy around? You don’t know what he’s going to Do. He’s a loose cat, and. Yeah, get rid of him. And. And every one of them meet the same fate just about when you.

You’re like that. Yeah, like, I. I see, like, even in. In the Asian gangs, you get some crazy people out there who. There’s people who kill because. To get the job done. Because whether it’s for money, respect, or whatever, you get disrespected. A lot of times with the Chinese gangs, it’s over respect, you know? Yeah, most of it. Most of it. It’s not because about the money. It’s not. No, no. I mean, there’s so many stories, and we go through each story in a news article that they printed. It’s a lot of times it’s about, you know, one person disrespecting another person.

It’s about losing face. But then when you get. But then there are some crazy people out there who just kill just to kill for fun, just to get laughs. And there’s people like that out there in the Asian gangs, and those are dangerous. Those are loose cannons. So you retired how long ago? I retired July 2021. All right, so how are you enjoying your retiring years? Are you really retired or you’re still active? I’m retired. That’s it. I thought I was gonna have a lot of time in my hands when I’m retired, But then this YouTube channel and the book and everything else is keeping me so busy, and, you know.

Oh, yeah, you wrote a book. Tell us about it. Yes, I wrote a book. It’s called Bad to Blue, and it’s about my life story, you know, my time in the gang and then my transition to eventually become a police officer and NYPD detective. A lot of your experiences are in the book? Yes, yes, a lot of my personal experiences, and my thoughts are. Yeah, in the book. And I assume you’re still living in the New York area? Yes, I spend my time between New York and the Philippines. Oh, okay. I went to the Philippines. I took a year off from.

Almost a year off from the job back in around 2015, I took some time off. I traveled around to different countries, and I eventually got my retirement visa over there. It’s called the srrv. And then I wind up buying a condo over there, and I spend my time over there. All right, well, Mike, this is. It’s been a great conversation. I really appreciate it. You gave me some insight because, you know, it’s funny. I had insight into, obviously, the cartels, the Mexican mafia. I did a lot of time with guys from the Mexican mafia, the Colombians also.

And I’ve spoken and knew. I had experiences with the Hells Angels and a little bit with the Aryan Brotherhood, mostly in prison. But I have never spoken to anybody that was, other than my experience in MDC New York with anybody that was involved in, in, you know, the Chinese gags. I really enjoyed it and all my viewers really enjoy it. And what I want to do now, if you’re okay, I have a private platform. We have about a thousand members and we always give them the opportunity to ask a couple of questions that we put only in the platform.

Yes. If you’re okay, I got two or three questions to ask you. Yes. Okay. My friends, if you want to hear the rest of this eye opening interview, join my school community link is in the description. Well, Mike, you’re one of the good stories, you know, and fascinating the way you’ve turned your life around, the way you’ve lived the last, you know, 26 years. Really fascinating that that had such an impact when you read that story about the officer that forgave the person that, that shot him was great. But anyway, listen, I really enjoyed it, you know.

Thank you so much. I’m going to direct people to your channel. I know they love to hear these kind of stories, so we’ll direct people there. And please send us a, an image of your book so we can put it up there. I’m sure people enjoy reading it and it’s been a great conversation. I appreciate it very much. Thank you, Michael. I’m so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. All right, my friends, there you have it. I thought he was a great guest. He had a lot of things to say that were kind of eye opening for me.

I asked him about the similarities between the mafia and the Chinese gangs, what the structure is. And there was some similarities in the structure as Michael relayed to you. You know, some of the things he said, you know, when you think about it, you know, being a cop is a tough job. People, when you’re running that beat, especially in cities like New York and Chicago and places where crime is, you know, because the population is so big, crime is, is fairly prevalent. Some of the things that he witnessed, some of the things that he had to do, especially when it comes to young children, to see them, you know, harmed in any way, it’s really, really tough.

But you know what? I, I applaud him for making such a transition. It’s amazing, you know, how that happened. You know, it’s a thought can come into our head that can really impact us. And. And when he, you know, saw the article about the police officer that was injured, harmed by somebody, and the police officer said, I forgive him, he forgave him, that really impacted Michael. You know what? I’ve said this while he was a gang member, and I’ve said this many times. There’s a question. Why do good people do bad things? Well, obviously, Michael was a criminal for a while.

He was part of a criminal organization. But what was in his heart? Why did he do those things? Was he really comfortable in doing those things while he was a member of that Chinese gang? Was he really a bad person or was he an okay person doing bad things until finally the light went off? That’s a transformed person. And I’ve said this many times. I had a lot of friends in my former life, guys that I loved, and they were good people, treated their families properly, had a good heart, would help you if you need it.

But we did bad things, no question, as part of that life. But why? It didn’t necessarily make you a bad person. You can do bad things and not be a bad person. That’s why God says, you can hate the sins but don’t hate the sinner, because you don’t know. And it’s hard sometimes to label somebody always a criminal. Well, you know, there’s consequences to your actions because you’re a good person and you do bad things. You still face consequences, but it doesn’t make you always a bad person. Now, are there sometimes just bad people? Of course.

People that just can’t be helped. Yeah, but not everybody is like that. And here’s a perfect example. Gang member was impacted by a police officer forgiving his assailant. It impacted him because something inside of him was real, wasn’t bad. And what does he do? He leaves the gang life and becomes a police officer. Incredible. Great story. Read his book, go on to his platform. He tells stories about, you know, his life as a. As a police officer and about his life as a gang member. So very interesting. Different culture. Chinese. Many of us may not be familiar with their culture, so Michael sheds a light on a lot of it.

So that’s it for today, my friends. How do I always leave you? Same way. And I’m going to leave you with this little last sip of wine that I have. I’m loving my wine, people. Franz East Wine. Go online franz easwine.com and order yours now for the holiday. We have some very special ones coming up. These fruit wines that we have. BlackBerry, pomegranate, strawberry and. And what else do we have? Strawberry and cherry. All. All four. Can’t find them anywhere else. But anyway, go online. Franz ease.com audios for the holiday now. You’re going to love it, no doubt about it.

How do I always leave you? Same way. Be safe, be healthy. God bless each and every one of you. And yes, I’ll see you next time. Stay tuned. Sa.
[tr:tra].