Modern Wizardry w/ Devin Person | Paranoid American Podcast 121

➡ Paranoid American, a unique comic publisher, has been exploring the world’s mysteries through their podcast since 2012. They delve into topics like secret societies, forbidden technology, and occult symbols in pop culture. In a recent episode, they interviewed Devin Person, a self-proclaimed modern wizard, who discussed the history and cultural significance of wizards. Person believes that being a wizard is more about embodying a certain archetype and less about meeting specific qualifications.
➡ The text discusses the historical perception of wizards, suggesting they were seen as wise individuals who perhaps became too self-absorbed, leading to their caricatured image. It also explores the relationship between John D. and Edward Kelly, two historical figures involved in magic, suggesting their partnership was collaborative and possibly manipulative. The text further delves into the concept of channeling, suggesting it could be a mix of tapping into the unconscious mind and contacting otherworldly beings. Lastly, it discusses neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) in the context of magic, suggesting it was seen as a form of influence or ‘artificial charisma’.
➡ This text discusses the concept of hell, questioning if there’s an unforgivable sin and suggesting that fear of hell might create a personal hell. It also mentions a product guaranteeing no eternal damnation, and a comic about the history of the Illuminati. The text ends with lyrics about overcoming hate and negativity, and a repeated phrase, “you’re welcome,” possibly indicating gratitude or a sense of accomplishment.
➡ The text discusses the concept of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), a method used by therapists to help people understand their own thoughts and feelings better. It explains how therapists use NLP to challenge vague statements like “everyone hates me” by asking for specifics, which can help people realize their own misconceptions. The text also discusses how NLP has been used in sales and manipulation, and how people can become aware of these tactics. Finally, it mentions a falling out between the creators of NLP, showing that even experts in communication can have disagreements.
➡ The text discusses the concept of trances, hypnosis, and mind control, referencing historical figures like John D. and Milton Erickson. It explores how these practices have been used and studied, from religious settings to government conspiracies. The text also delves into the idea of magic and its unpredictable nature, comparing it to hypnosis and other forms of mind manipulation. Lastly, it mentions a conspiracy theorist’s work on creating an ‘Illuminati mind control slave’ and the supposed desirable trait of quickly transitioning into and out of trances.
➡ The text discusses various topics, including the belief in redheads having magical properties, the concept of hypnosis, and the potential for AI to hypnotize. It also touches on the idea of summoning entities to do one’s work, likening it to the use of AI today. The text further explores the nature of hypnosis, describing it as a state of focused attention that can be achieved even through text, and how it uses pacing and leading to guide the subject into a trance-like state.
➡ The text discusses the hypnotic qualities of AI chatbots, the concept of mind control, and the influence of Aleister Crowley on the modern occult movement. It suggests that interacting with AI can lead to a form of addiction due to the constant affirmation it provides. The text also explores the idea of hypnosis as a form of mind control, referencing the CIA’s attempts and the military’s basic training. Lastly, it discusses Aleister Crowley’s significant impact on the occult, his storytelling abilities, and his controversial personality.
➡ The text discusses a magician who uses shocking methods to captivate his audience. He also had a drug problem, specifically with cocaine, which influenced his behavior and relationships. The text also explores the influence of his ideas on American culture, including Scientology and the Church of Satan. It ends with a discussion on the ethics of influence and manipulation, using examples from the world of magic, hypnosis, and NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming).
➡ The text discusses the concept of manipulation, both conscious and unconscious, in various contexts such as dating, sales, and social interactions. It highlights the importance of respecting another person’s free will and autonomy, even when trying to influence their decisions or actions. The text also explores the idea of using manipulation for positive change, such as helping someone quit smoking. Finally, it delves into the concept of breaking societal norms and expectations to create unique experiences and stories, using the example of a person dressing as a wizard on the subway.
➡ The text is a conversation about various topics, including beliefs in aliens, dinosaurs, dragons, and the concept of deja vu. It also discusses the possibility of summoning demons, the potential of cryogenesis and AI, and the use of social media for good. The speaker expresses skepticism about certain ideas, but is open to others. They also touch on the topic of conspiracy theories, suggesting that some are used to manipulate people, while others are ignored despite being evident.
➡ The text discusses various conspiracy theories, their political implications, and how they shift over time. It highlights how these theories can be used as tools to manipulate public opinion and how media coverage can influence their perception. The text also mentions the role of information warfare and artificial intelligence in shaping these narratives. Lastly, it introduces Devin Person, a wizard who offers services for magical and hypnotic purposes.

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So I guess it’s by no accident that we have a actual wizard with us today. And let me just preface this with every decision that you’ve made in your entire life has literally led up to this exact moment of you listening to an interview with Devin Person, an actual legitimate wizard. And just to give you some. Some accolades, I believe you call yourself a modern wizard. The New York Post has written about you as the Subway Wizard. You’ve also been called Gandalf of Greenpoint and the weed smoking Brooklyn Wizard. Which of those is your favorite title? I know I hadn’t heard.

The Gandalf of Greenpoint. That’s kind of Fun. I also might question how legitimate I am, but I appreciate the compliment. Okay, well. And I have to usually open this up on a general question for everybody. Yeah. Devin Person, are you a cop? Because if you’re a cop, you have to tell me that’s not true. And also this is true. I’m not a cop. Okay. All right, you’re off the hook. Are you indeed an actual wizard? What does an actual wizard mean to you? Well, you’re jumping ahead of my questions. What is an actual wizard? So for me, wizard is an idea.

And it’s an idea that’s rooted in two streams. One of those is historic. You know, we’ve had people practicing magic in all kinds of different cultures, but there’s a specific sort of Greco, Egyptian, European lineage that leads us to wizard. And then while there are, you know, historical wizards, you know, people like John Dee get brought up from time to time. I think, according to my research, while we have a lot more witches and kind of cunning folk is what they were called across Europe, like little magical practitioners, I don’t really think that this. Every village had a guy with a pointy hat with stars on it that was the local wizard.

And a lot of that comes from fiction. So there’s these streams converging where you have real history and magic and alchemy and astrology and all of that entering the imagination and then getting channeled into culture through writers like J.R.R. tolkien, which kicks off a whole new kind of interest in wizards across fantasy paperbacks and dungeons and Dragons and heavy metal album covers. And eventually it just becomes an icon, an archetype. So you can put it on a box of kids cereal and, you know, a child is going to recognize that’s a wizard and that is a very interesting place to be because it’s both real and not real.

Do you think that wizardry or the qualifications of wizardry can fit within the Prussian Rockefeller system of degrees and qualifications? You know, occult orders do love degrees and qualifications, but for me, I’m a self initiated wizard. And, and I think wizards in these texts and the way that they appear, they’re kind of often loners or outsiders or mysterious playful figures. So I think it’s less a formal the ceremonial magician who’s going up through the homework and the degrees and more the Taoist sage who’s kind of delighting in riddles and baffling wisdom seekers. Okay, so maybe in my mind I’m creating a division of, you’ve got your homeschool wizards, you’ve got your devry University of Phoenix online wizards.

And then maybe you’ve got your upper echelon Ivy League Yale wizards. If I get initiated into the Skull and Bones secret society at Yale, am I even a little bit wizard? Well, the thing is, what you’ve just done is you’ve just created your own fictional world of wizards where there’s all these distinctions. And that’s a wonderful idea. I mean, you could probably write a young adult fantasy series about that. But wizard is a word. It’s an open term so people can try and split hairs about what’s a wizard versus what’s a warlock versus what’s a sorcerer.

And I’d say, you know, all three are words, and they have distinctions that are clear in some ways and nebulous in others. And I like to play in that liminal space where clarity is elusive. Okay, so spitting of splitting hairs. It seems that most real wizards have beards. Like you mentioned real wizard. You got Edward Kelly, you’ve got Merlin. I mean, I’m not going to just list every single wizard ever, but it does seem like having a beard, if not being a prerequisite, it is at least so fundamental that it’s part of the archetype. And that’s.

I think it’s part of the archetype. Right. But it’s one of these things of. Okay, can you imagine a wizard without a beard? Yeah. I mean, Harry Potter’s a wizard. He doesn’t have a beard. So it doesn’t mean that you have to have a beard to be a wizard. And it’s the same with the other things. Like, do you have to wear a pointy hat? I mean, I have some, but I’m not wearing one right now. Did I lose my wizard credentials when I took my hat off? But if you take away too many of these things, then it falls apart.

And then when you add these things back together, it’s like you’re making a Halloween costume, and suddenly you’re like, okay, well, I’ve got an old cloak. Well, I might be a monk, I might be a wizard. I don’t know. Well, I’ve got a walking stick. Okay, now it’s getting more wizardly. Oh, I put on a white beard. Okay. It’s coming together. And so it’s an emergent property out of these signs and signifiers that we associate with it. But, you know, there’s a lot of people that can’t grow beards, and they can still totally be wizards. And anyone can put a dunce cap on, essentially, or the little conical hat that you put on that.

And I, I would maybe assume that you could be a greater expert in this particular topic about the. With pointy wizard hats, because my sort of surface level knowledge is that they were created by this guy, John Dunn’s SCOTUS, who was a Franciscan friar in like the 13th century, late 13th century, and that he saw this dunce cap as some sort of a spiritual or like, like a knowledge antenna, that it was somehow like a funnel that would reach into the ether and extract knowledge out of the ether and put it into your head. It was kind of like, you know, like a little antenna that you were dialing into.

And then over a few different centuries, this turned into a device to point out dumb kids in school, but that one of the original uses was that you were tapping into like an extra frequency somehow. Is, is. Am I somewhere on the right path of this is where wizard hats come from or there other explanations for the shape and the use of these conical wizard hats? You’re certainly on a path, and I think you’ve. Yeah, that’s a lot of good information. But again, it gets murky. You know, we don’t have a clear lineage where we can say, okay, this comes from this, this comes from that, because it kind of assembles out of that bric a brac.

So, yeah, I think one of the other things that I can throw out is I know that the word wizard comes from an old English word for wizened, but that that suffix, the ard, is slightly derogatory. It’s kind of like too much of something. So you have drunkard or coward. There’s a little bit of a pejorative there. And so some people think that, yeah, it’s the idea that, you know, the wizard had a little too much wisdom. Like, we’re a little skeptical of it. And some of the illustrations and things with the dunce cap were kind of making fun of it.

But there’s a lot of, you know, a lot of cool hats in the history of magic. Okay, so like wizards were like the wise guys that were getting a little too high on their own supply a little bit, and then they became a caricature of themselves. And then this leads into an archetype. One possible explanation for this archetype developing? Well, I mean, you know, think about our weird modern world and the strains of anti intellectualism that we already have. Now imagine being a superstitious populace where literacy is not even common and there’s somebody who’s got more than three books in the village.

You know, already you’re kind of like, what’s going on with that guy? And then a lot of this is also. There wasn’t a media apparatus. You know, John Dee is, you know, a public figure. He’s in the court of, what is it? Queen Elizabeth ii. I’m not a good date and name guy. He was one of the first intelligence agencies for the crown. Yeah. But for the common people who had kind of heard a story about this guy, it wasn’t like they read a blog post or saw a photo of him. You know, this is all kind of passed around.

So I think again, it’s all that weird murky soup where ideas evolve and that’s where you can kind of have fun with it. Of, you know, when we look at the wizard in history, we’re looking through a wizard shaped lens that we’ve created and then we see what falls into it and what doesn’t. But a lot of that comes through certain bottlenecks where yeah, like a pointy hat is associated with it because of, you know, drawings of different wizards. But you know, Gandalf wore more of like a wide brimmed hat. There’s a variety. Do you have any particular opinions on the relationship between John D.

And Edward Kelly? Do you think John D. Was mentor. Was there a mentee? Was one like an old guy getting taken advantage of, a younger guy that, that had, you know, like some extra abilities? Like what, what do you think was going on behind that friendship? Well, I think one of the things that I love about it is that John D. Is like, I don’t have the gift of sight or, you know, this, this, this magical vision. And Edward Kelly does. And so we’re going to work together. And as somebody who I have mild aphantasia myself, like I’m not highly visual, but I work as a hypnotherapist.

I see clients every single week go into a trance state and they’re seeing crazy amounts of detail. That is just not my experience. When I do hypnosis on myself or have it done to me, it’s just different. And I think for a lot of magical practitioners, you know, you get the 101 book and it starts you off with exercises about perfectly visualizing things. And I like that in this world that they were in that you can have collaboration. Right. Like you don’t have to be doing it all on your own. And I think most of what they were doing was a pretty interesting, cool collaborative partnership.

You can get into speculation about, you know, is Edward Kelly hoodwinking John D. I love that the angels told Edward Kelly that they should swap wives. I think that’s hilarious. Uriel in particular. It was that rascal Uriel that kept pushing that envelope. Yeah, supposedly. You know, and I think, again, I try and have a sense of humor about all of this. You know, any guru that is channeling messages and you’re taking them literally, you know, eventually is like, we should all switch wives. Like, that’s a common thing that gets channeled when you get people in a position of power.

And it’s funny because, you know, who exactly has the power in the D. Kelly relationship? I’m pretty sure John D. Tried out a few other people first, though. Like, you know, he had a few different scryers that he was working with until him and Edward Kelly, you know, became The Lennon and McCartney of polyamorous angel magic. Yeah, it was. Was John D. Just a swinger trying to hook up his. Because I believe Jane Dee at this time was in her 30s. John Dee’s in his, like, 70s, and Edward Kelly’s in his 30s. So if anything, he might have been doing a favor for Jane and just masking it as like, we’re just doing magic, honey.

We’re. We’re talking to angels in here. But, you know, he was. He was trying to improve the quality of life of her as well. Well, and I think, look, you know, when we’re talking about this kind of magic and channeling, there’s different ways that we can look at it. One of them is from a much more secular skeptic, no supernatural stuff, that this is either just somebody making up a bunch of bullshit, or it’s. We’re tapping into the, you know, unconscious mind and just letting it flow. The other idea is that we’re contacting otherworldly beings and literal angels, and they’re giving these messages.

And I think it’s a mix of both. I think there’s an interesting interplay between those. And when you hold them lightly, you don’t get stuck in one end or the other. And what is interesting across the whole field of channeling is even when somebody is, you know, really dropping into that trance state and it’s just flowing through them. What’s often flowing through is the information that is in the background of that person’s unconscious. So somebody who has grown up, you know, reading about New Age texts and is in that milieu is going to be channeling, you know, a starseed alien that’s going to talk about Indigo Children and the coming New Age going.

Because that’s kind of what’s what’s going on for them. Same way that a musician, you know, sits down to write a riff and they might accidentally rewrite Smells Like Teen Spirit without realizing it. And if it’s too close, then they’re like, ah, okay, we gotta change it. But I think there’s another version where it’s not too close, but it’s still like you’re recycling all of the weird stuff that got stuck in the back of your head when you were growing up. You know, when you were a three year old and you were browsing Sam Goody and the songs playing in the background, that’s kind of the, the weird mass that you draw from in your own creative practice later on.

There’s a. So many angles I want to take us into. So first, let me, let me go down. You mentioned that you’re a practitioner of hypnotism, essentially. And I don’t know if I’ve ever been. If I have, I haven’t remembered being hypnotized. But I am fairly interested in the concept of like neuro linguistic programming, which I guess is, is the skeptics version of hypnosis or at least dipping your pinky toe into the pool. Because this is a commercialized sort of system of knowledge that’s like, hey, if you want to do this, it’s here’s a formulaic ab equals C sort of approach.

And even I think one of the earlier books on NLP by Bandler and Grindr, it was, it was like the language of magic or something. Structure of magic. Yeah, it’s somewhere back there. It’s. So it starts out on this idea that if you can tell people to do things and they follow you, if you can have influence over people, I would almost say like artificial charisma. Maybe that’s a bad way of describing it. That this was seen as, as actual magic at some point is. Do you. What do you feel about just the concept of NLP in general in the context of magic? Yeah.

So NLP comes out of a specific cultural moment. They were studying at the University of Santa Cruz. Gregory Bateson, the systems theorist was one of their mentors and they were doing all kinds of weird 70s therapy. BE. It’s amazing some of the offhand references they have of like, oh yeah, like, you know, you might act this out with your therapist. And I feel like most people these days end up with a pretty straightforward talk therapist. Whereas in the 1970s, you know, you’re going to go do primal scream and get buried and emerge from a fake womb and you know, all kinds.

Very Masonic. Yeah. I mean, yeah, absolutely. We lose these things and then we recreate them over and over. So the first book is interesting because it’s really based in Noam Chomsky’s transformational grammar and this idea that there’s a deep structure of meaning and a surface structure that refers back to it. So when I say, yeah, I got it done, that’s a surface structure. And what the it is in the deep structure. I got the podcast project done yesterday. You know, there’s more information in that deep structure that we shorten. And what they realized by studying a lot of really skilled therapists, including a hypnotherapist named Milton Erickson, was that these people were able to find the gaps where somebody would make a statement like, everybody hates me, which is very vague, and find a way to go, well, who’s everybody? Oh, you know, people.

Well, no, who’s everybody? My co worker Sally, or my father. You know, okay, why did. And then that would help them realize that there was distortions or things missing from their model that, you know, someone’s going around going, nobody appreciates me. But you’re realizing, actually every time someone appreciates you, you kind of ignore it. You know, someone says, hey, Thomas, you did a really good job. And you’re like, no, no, no, no, no. And at the end of the day, you’ve forgotten about it. So they started with this really interesting idea, but then what so often happens is they got deeper into kind of taking Erickson’s hypnosis and adding extra steps.

And some of that was really interesting, where they were able to see patterns in what he was doing that he hadn’t identified. And other stuff doesn’t hold together quite as well. But you move from the context of the 1970s therapy movement, and then you get into the wild, freewheeling, cocaine addled 1980s. And that’s where they start doing sales workshops and all of these ideas that used cars salesmen are going to use to, you know, manipulate you. And some of that stuff works like human beings are manipulatable, but also it’s kind of like an arms race all the time.

So once that idea is out there, then that caricature of a pushy used car salesman enters your consciousness and kind of creates, like an antibody. So then you’re like, oh, I know what you’re doing. Like, get away from me. And this goes on to things like pickup artists. Right? You know, maybe in 2003 in Los Angeles, you could do some of this corny stuff. And it was going to work, especially if you go out every night and bug, you know, 100 different women. But eventually, when there’s a VH1 reality show about this, it becomes cringe and obvious.

And now if you’re out trying to, like, nag women at a club, they’re like, ew, like, no, this isn’t going to work. But what does work is there’s always people who love the fantasy that there’s a magic set of skills that’s going to let you have power and influence over anyone you want. And you can definitely sell those people those workshops, which is how these things constantly devolve. The funny epilogue for Bandler and Grindr is they sued each other in this horrible falling out lawsuit, which is wild for two guys who are creating a philosophy of communication and understanding that they have this very contentious lawsuit, which, again, you know, it’s not like anyone who’s, you know, helping someone doesn’t need help themselves.

But yeah, there’s a lot of weirdness in the NLP world. And part of that you kind of hit the nail on the head of where I was originally informed of like, how NLP came into being. It was basically modeling after successful therapy techniques and the different patterns of language. And we were talking about before, when someone speaks in sweeping, vague generalities of Everybody hates me. If you start drilling down, what it does is it forces you to stop thinking in like these blanket. Everything’s black or white and like really pinpoint and I guess be a lot more meticulous with your words and the meaning of words and what goes behind them.

One of the, the examples is that in nlp, you were describing yourself earlier as maybe not being as visual of a person or of a learner. And one of those core tenants of like the. If you go to an NLP workshop, they’re going to tell you like the kinesthetic learner and the auditory learner and the visual learner. And based on the language, you say, so if you were to, to write a letter to me and you said like, looking forward to seeing you later or something, then this would indicate that your verbiage revolves around like a visual state of being.

But if it’s like, hey, can’t wait to hear from you later, maybe you’re more audible if it’s like, you know, if you describe the way that you’re feeling or, or something, then now it’s like kinesthetic and that using these. I like, I like your analogy of an antibody where you’re like, oh, I’ve seen this. What Is this. I think of it as nlp, can almost be like mind control, self defense, like, almost like a Taekwondo where you learn how to throw a punch and you learn how to throw a kick, but it’s supposed to only be in self defense.

And an nlp, you can be like, wait a minute, you’re catering your language to me because I said this thing earlier, or because you just put your fist up, you know, to rest your head. I’m going to mirror you and build a little bit of rapport here without you understanding it. And I’ll turn this into a question. Wait, hold on, hold on. I want to jump in there because I think you’ve. You’ve set up a beautiful analogy that works great to get at what I’m describing here. So let’s think about something like Taekwondo right now. I bet we can agree that there are people in this world that are good fighters.

Some of them are naturally just jacked or they grew up in a rough circumstance. And so they’re just, you know, they’ve had experience fighting. And there are skills that we can learn from good fighters. So somebody who has no idea how to fight and has never thrown a punch could take Taekwondo classes and become a better fighter. But I think we also know that somebody who’s walking around and they’re like, you better watch out. I’ve got a black belt in karate. Is also totally able to get their butt handed to them outside of a circle K by some random tough guy who doesn’t care because he’s not trying to do the moves that you’re trying to do.

He just is like, whatever, clown, and just knocks you out. And so the thing with NLP is like, you talked about the modality systems, the visual, kinesthetic, auditory. They went a step further and got really into this thing of eye accessing cues. So if you tell somebody, what did you do on vacation? And they look up and to the left, they’re thinking in visual memory. If it’s down to the right, it’s kinesthetic, blah, blah, blah. And this doesn’t really hold when you’re doing scientific testing on it. And as you read the transcripts of their workshops, it’s happening.

And what I think is when you create a culture that believes in this, that it gets into the unconscious and someone is kind of following the thing. And maybe you squint here and there and go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You look to the left and they’re like, oh, I guess I did. But it’s the same thing, you know, in an aikido class, you’re going to get thrown across the room when someone does this weird move. If you go watch aikido videos on YouTube, you can see some really funny ones where it’s so over the top and dramatic because that community supports this idea.

But again, the aikido brawl in the Circle K parking lot is going to go very differently when someone doesn’t care about what’s supposed to happen. When you know, you do in a keto move. Yeah, this is like, like the, the psychic one inch punch guys that’ll just like, they’ll just kind of like slowly wave their hand and it’ll just knock somebody down because they’re sort of in that same. It, it does look like a version of hypnosis. But then if the hypnotist just walks up to a random guy outside of Circle K that hasn’t been conditioned, hasn’t been reselected, then yeah, maybe he gets knocked out when he tells the guy that he’s getting sleepy or something.

Yeah. And a lot of it is expectation. You know, if like one, a certain part of the population is more Hypnotizable, it’s about 15 to 30% and they just drop in differently. So if I’m going to go out and film man on the street hypnosis content, I’m going to be finding those people. There’s going to be some setup of expectation and some things that you don’t see on camera and then you’re going to see the like, watch my fingers sleep. And that looks really, really impressive. Yeah, exactly. But that doesn’t mean that hypnosis is real or fake.

Again, like wizardry, it’s kind of both. And these trance things exist across different contexts and cultures. The way that Trump speaks is very hypnotic. And when you’re at a rally and there’s driving music and everyone’s doing the same thing, like that is compelling and same as the aikido, like one punch kind of stuff. There’s all of the conservative Christian or charismatic Christian movement where you know, Jesus save you and then someone goes like, ah, and falls to the ground. Because that’s what’s supposed to happen when they do that. And you want the attention and the, the experience and you play into it.

But yeah, that same preacher, if they went out on the street and just started, you know, Christ blasting strangers, it’s not necessarily going to work. That would be awesome if there was like a subway Pentecostal preacher that would just make people spontaneously speak in tongues. Just what is it? Glossophilia Just like, bam, bam. And people just started. Yeah, yeah. Let me, let me take us back to John. I’m glad you brought up John D. He’s kind of like this perfect central point to go in a million different directions. Yeah. So, okay, so one of the directions that I have to go in is gonna be this like government conspiracy, secret society angle.

John D. The double. Oh, my God, absolutely. Yeah. You weren’t gonna expect this from Paranoid American podcast. And also when you’re talking about trances and we’re talking about early days of nlp, there were. I’m gonna scatterbrain this a little bit, I promise you. I’ll. I’ll bring us into a specific landing. But there was a research video that was funded by MK Ultra. Like, this isn’t like conjectures, actual MK Ultra research called trances in Bali, where they just went and recorded, I think in like the 1930s, people going into actual trances and that this was brought back to the US and scientists studied it and they’re like, okay, here’s unequivocal proof that there’s entire cultures based around trances.

But just like you were mentioning the, the guy going out in public and outside the Circle K, that like when you’re inside this, this specific environment and you know someone’s recording you and you know that they’re here to see trances and stuff, that people kind of played into this and that some of those original Bali video footages that, that came over like, the people knew that this was supposed to be a thing about trances. So they lean into it and the videotographers lean, like everyone’s leaning into it. So when they come back with this finished piece, it’s like, oh my God, we can’t believe that people just like with a snap of a finger, they can enter and exit trances.

And this, this kind of started a huge wave of, I think, conspiracy mind control culture from like the 1930s, which was built on top of kind of like the John De rumors of medieval magic. And maybe when you talk about Milton Erickson and Miltonian hypnosis, that that itself was sort of an extension of Franz Mesmer and mesmerism and animal magnetism. And then if you start rewinding that back now, we’re really in a. In a murky place where it’s very hard to differentiate between magic and alchemy and hypnosis because they’re all like this amorphous thing. It was only maybe around Milton Ericsson and then the NLP where it’s like, okay, now that it’s like.

And it’s a very specific little lane that’s developing these hyper focused extensions of itself. But there was a moment in which if you were just like, you’re a wizard, it would kind of entail all these different things. Yeah, I think, you know, if you go back to when we’re talking about natural philosophy, it’s the study of everything. It’s. There’s no distinction between a religious frame and a scientific frame frame. They’re all blended together. And I mean, there’s so many rabbit holes we can go down about the relationships between alchemy and psychology and all of these things.

And yeah, mesmerism in particular is fascinating because he believed it was a specific force. He thought this was something that was, you know, going to be measured scientifically. And if you look at the context of Mesmer, you know, he’s often doing it on people of lower class. These are very class stratified societies. And when a nobleman is telling you something, you know, you’re supposed to listen. And so they found that, you know, that’s part of the effect, that there’s power structures. You know, I noticed sometimes when I have clients that are, you know, ex military, they’re very used to following orders.

And sometimes I’m like doing my more conversational induction and I’m like, wait a minute, just close your eyes, go to trance. And they’re just like. And it’s like, okay, yeah, you’re good at that. And if you go read old books on hypnosis, you know, there’s things that Erickson and other people are talking about that if you tried now in a modern therapy office, someone would look at you like you have three heads. They’re like, I’m not going to do that. The world is constantly changing. So I try and have a very loose approach to all of these things and not get dogmatic about it.

NLP is an example of this, but there’s many more where someone will study hypnosis for a while and then they’ll go, oh, I don’t do hypnosis anymore. I do quantum trance healing therapy. Because that’s what you can trademark and then you can make your specific system. But when you do that, what you lose is the beauty and complexity of human beings. Everybody’s different. It’s not supposed to be a one size fits all approach. It’s not supposed to be a step by step thing. And I think this can be a door into a wider conversation about magic.

But you know, I Find magic fascinating because it doesn’t always work. You know, if I wanted to get exactly what I wanted, I would just order something on the Internet. What makes magic beautiful and amazing is when you do some ritual over here, and then something in your life corresponds with that. It’s. It rhymes, it echoes, and it comes out of nowhere. It’s a surprise. And you’re going to wait, I did this thing, and then this specific thing, like, matched. That’s what makes it interesting. And it doesn’t always work. And anyone that is guaranteeing results, my pickup artist NLP system is going to work 100% of the time.

That’s a sales tactic. So with wizardry, one of the things that I’m always thinking about is how do we move into a wider context and see what’s going on? And I’ll give you a few examples, right? If you’re observing me work with a client, and you don’t know anything about hypnosis. You don’t even know what it is. And you watch me drop someone into trance, you’re like, what just happened? I have no. I have no frame of reference for that. Same thing as if you grew up on an island and you never saw technology. And then someone comes and they show you a Bic lighter or a smartphone.

You’re like, how does that work? I’ve never seen anything. I have no context. But when you move into that wider context, that makes sense. Even a traditional magic trick. How did you know it was my card? Well, the boring answer is I’ve practiced this and done it thousands of times. I’ve studied a whole world of very boring books and cramped hand movements that you’ve never considered. So it feels mind blowing to you. But for me, yeah, it’s the Ridley Shuffle or some weird thing like that. And I think this idea of pulling back into a wider context is useful because, you know, someone’s selling you the workshop on hypnosis or pickup artist stuff, and when you pull back, you go, oh, you’re not trying to teach me hypnosis.

You’re trying to use hypnosis on me to get you to buy the thing. Like, oh, wait, hold on. I see what’s going on here. And I think that’s the same thing. You know, in my opinion, with a lot of the conspiracy landscape right now, it’s both good to question the official government narrative, but also, I think, good to question. Wait, who benefits from this conspiracy narrative? Is this. Are we still inside the mall? Is this still. We’re playing the game. We’re Just playing a level that’s telling us we found the secret files that they conveniently left out for everybody to see.

Let me drive us a little bit deeper into the conspiracy angle for a second too. Especially when we talk about jumping in and out of trances. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the work of a conspiracy theorist named Fritz Springmeier. He was the one that wrote 13 bloodlines of the Illuminati. But he also had a book called I always. I always botch this because such a long title, it’s a mouthful, but it’s like how to create an undetectable Illuminati mind control slave. And it’s like a spiral bound manual that almost reads like a 1980s. Like bait.

Like basic programming manual of here’s how you do it. And I’m not gonna to recite the entire thing to you, but there’s this one very specific angle that it goes down into. And like in any good conspiracy fashion, he kind of seems to be conjuring up the studies of John Deere, conjuring up the studies of all these old, like, alchemists and mental manipulators. And. And he’s implying that there’s a desirable trait that. That somebody can have, which is the ability to immediately transition into a trance and back out of it. And that this might even be like, genetically predisposed to.

I think. I think it goes on the atom of, like, redheads that. That people with red hair. And there are some historical precedents for gingers having, like, magical properties. I believe they used to forge certain swords and knives in the urine of redheaded children because it was assumed to have some magical practice. Well, he kind of links this into an idea that redheads can transition into these trances, which accounts for, I believe, also an anomaly where they need more anesthetics when they’re going under something. And that maybe this like, threshold for pain in combination with generations of being bred, that essentially any good royal family has one line they can point to that’s like, aha, but great grandma with red hair could just immediately transition to a trance and back out of it.

And that somehow that’s like a desirable trait to aspire to. Have you ever heard anything like this? Like, like breeding, like a. A eugenic style version of trans induction? No, I know about the redhead, like, anesthesia thing. Like, I’m familiar with that. I don’t know any data on specific populations that are what we called natural somnambulists. That’s a term for sleepwalking. That’s kind of left over from the idea that hypnosis is a sleep state, which it’s not. But it is really interesting to see what a difference it is. You know, I work with all kinds of people, so I’m not just trying to do the 15 to 30% that are the deep subjects.

But, you know, there’s some people where I can tell they’re in their head, and I have to work to get them comfortable with what trance means. And for that person, it’s a lighter experience. Whereas somebody else, as I’m even just doing my intro talk, I’m watching their eyes start to go, and I’m like, oh, okay, I’ve got somebody here, here. But I don’t know any, like, demographic. Your opinion, Is this a desirable trait, that. That you are a natural somnambulist, or is this something that you would personally prefer not to. To have a trade as, you know, I am the way that I am, and I’m certainly a skeptic in a lot of ways.

And, you know, I can be the person where everyone’s like, oh, my God, isn’t this amazing? I’m like, I don’t know. I got a different take. But I think there’s advantages to both. We need both, right? Like, it’s fun to have the people who want to stand up and go hallelujah and get, you know, Jesus blasted. But if everybody was like that, we’d have a lot of problems. And one of the concerns that I have a conspiracy that’s operating in plain sight. We are getting very good at studying human psychology. That’s not up for debate. We figured out a lot of weird tricks about how the mind works in its systems.

And now we have companies who have a financial incentive to use those against us. So all of these. Yeah, all of these kind of dark design. I mean, everything from a social media app to a game app. I mean, how many game apps advertise themselves as how addictive they are? Like, we know how to hook human beings in this way. So I don’t know where being like a good trance subject connects to these other things, but, you know, there are some people who are more predisposed to a gambling problem or a substance use problem. And that can also compound with, you know, your unique personal circumstances.

And people in power definitely like to exploit that. And I mean, like we said earlier, like, like with a Trump rally, I mean, this goes back forever of, you know, hey, our soldiers fight better if we have a nice drum rhythm. Really, like, getting them going. You Know, are they dropping into a trance and they’re losing all awareness of personal self? Some might, some might not be. They’re good. But does, you know, does it whip everybody up into a frenzy and make it harder to be like, you know, guys, I think I’m actually over the battle.

I’m gonna back like. Yeah, it definitely pushes you forward in a group herd mindset. Okay, let’s go back to John D again as like our nice little like Hub. He’s kind of our crossroads. Yeah. Another aspect of John D was him kind of popularizing Enoki and magic and these, these sigils that end up being repeated for centuries afterwards. And I think some of these rooted in Solomonic magic and that these apparently were the seals that King Solomon was using to help build his temple. And this is a more classic Greek, like Damon interpretation of, of magical entities that you’re kind of summoning to do things.

And I guess my bumpkin dumbed down version of what this classic Greek daemon is, it’s like a, a function that you invoke that does the thing that it’s meant to do and then goes away. So for example, he summons demons out of or daemons out of the Red Sea to help put up the purple pillar, which is like the blue and the red pillar that goes in front of the temple. And that he basically is just like creating or summoning these entities in order to do his busy work for him, which is an archetype you see often I would, I would say in a lot of early Disney movies, whenever there is an apprentice.

Fantasia is a good example. Sword in the Stone’s a perfect example. The first time someone figures out magic, they wash the dishes with it or they clean, they sweep up the room. They never really go right for like, let’s change the world. It’s like, let’s clean the kitchen. And then, and I almost, I almost feel like that’s this original archetype of King Solomon summoning up demons to do his, his like dirty work, essentially. Well, we have that now with AI. You know, the whole thing is this, oh, the AI is going to do your dirty work.

It’s going to write your email, it’s going to, you know, do this or that. And I think we’re speed running the issues with that of what happens when we, you know, Fantasia ourselves. Right. The broom, it’s going to make my job so easier. It’s going to carry the water and then suddenly it’s out of control. Can you be hypnotized by AI? So that is Such a complicated question. Yes or no answers only here. So first and foremost, what is hypnosis? That’s a good question. Still up for debate. The academic field that studies hypnosis has kind of worked themselves with.

A lot of fields have done this where they’ve gotten to the point where they’re like, I don’t even know if this is a thing. Like, you know, it might just be. You can convince people it’s a thing, but it’s not. But if you can convince people it’s a thing, that becomes a thing. So it gets weird. But the debates around, is it a specific, like, state? Is it something that you can measure with brain waves? Which, you know, I think so, but I’m not a neuroscientist. But what it is is a state of focused attention. So it’s not a job closing your eyes and being a zombie.

It doesn’t even have to be relaxed. If you think about times when you’re working on something and you’re so in the zone, you don’t realize that the sun’s gone down. So you’re like, oh, geez, I can’t see. I have to turn the lights on. Or if you’re watching a really good movie and you’re on the edge of your seat and your spouse, your kid is, you know, saying your name, and it takes them like three times for you. Huh? What? Talking to me. You know, these are all examples of trance states where your attention is so zoomed in.

So people can get hypnotized over text. You know, there’s people that are hypnosis fans, and they’re like, yes, I’m, you know, having a chat with somebody, and I’m, like, going into trance and I’m, you know, kind of like role playing at the same way that somebody might have a DND thing or, you know, a furry sex chat, whatever you want. Like, you can kind of get into that. So, yeah, you can be, you know, hypnotized via text. Sure. But I think the. The larger yes here, the resounding yes, is hypnosis uses what’s called pacing and leading.

So we’ll affirm what’s already happening. And that makes you go, okay, that makes sense. You know, if I say you can feel the glasses on your face right now, your brain checks my statement and goes, that’s true. If I said you could feel the dragons crawling around your head, you might be like, no, I don’t feel that. But when I say you can feel, totally gets me. Yeah. But when I do pacing and I’m making these true statements. It’s almost like your brain is kind of checking it. It’s like, green light. Okay, green light. And then it starts automatically, green lighting.

So then when I say, you know, as you become less aware of your glasses, you can feel your scalp starting to relax. It just goes green light and just takes that instruction in. And then that’s where you get the cool hypnotic phenomenon where I’m saying, you know, your arm is going to float into the air and then you’re like, yep, that’s happening. Okay. Now if you’re talking to Chat GPT and everything that you’re asking it, it’s affirming. Then you’re getting this kind of brain response of like, wow, what a great answer. And that like kind of is what I wanted to hear.

Like, great. And then if you’re feeding smart for asking such a great question, look at Jason. What a brilliant question. So good of you. Yeah. And so you’re getting that effect. And then if you’re then asking weirder questions that, you know, any friend or regular person would be like, I don’t know about that. And it’s like, great idea. Let’s talk about how to test the rope strength for the noose that you want to build. You know, it can take you down these pretty dark paths. And I think that is hypnotic because you’re getting addicted to the feedback.

You’re excluding other things from your reality. You know, the people in my life that don’t agree with this or understand, but ChatGPT really gets me. And that is, I think a. I don’t want to say it’s like a strict traditional trance, but it’s certainly suggestion based and has hypnotic qualities. How much credit do you give the concept of like a, like a CIA mind control assassin type hypnosis where the lady in the polka dot dress walks by and you shoot rfk and then you immediately develop amnesia and don’t remember any of it. So the British hypnotist and magician Darren Brown has actually explored this in one of his specials where he had a huge audience and he tried to find the best natural trance subject and worked on him through these exercises.

And then he gets them to at least attempt to assassinate Stephen Fry. And it works in the special. You know, again, Darren Brown is making entertainment. So I’m not going to say it’s the be all, end all. They put that on TV too. And they wouldn’t put that on TV unless it was true. Exactly right. But the other thing is that, you know, the CIA and stuff has dumped all kinds of money into the fantasy that this is going to work. And it’s. I don’t know, I, you know, unless they’ve hidden all the files, it seems like they’ve had a lot of failed attempts.

Attempts because it works imperfectly. You know, we know how to hypnotize people into being killers. It’s called basic training for the military. Like, there’s so much conditioning that goes in that process that changes how you think and operate and gets it into your unconscious. We don’t want you thinking about, is this morally right and how do I use the gun? We want it to go, ah, bang. So, you know, there’s a lot of conditioned responses that we can program. But I don’t think it’s the Manchurian Candidate where you’re creating zombies that have no free will of their own other than, you know, what we already see in the general populace, hypnotized by social media and niche groups that reaffirm their biases and things like that.

Here’s a wizard without a beard. What about Aleister Crowley? Do you have any immediately knee jerk reactions when that name even comes up? I think Crowley is a fascinating figure. I think, you know, love him or hate him, you got to respect him. He is responsible for so much of what we think of as the modern occult movement, which has changed in the past few decades. You know, people have done a lot more work to go into other cultures and different practices that aren’t part of that, you know, Western European lineage. But I think he seems like quite the character.

And that’s also a lot of his intentional myth making. And, you know, for a trust fund kid, you know, put that money to good use, you know, had had a lot of adventures. Yeah. What about you? What do you think? I don’t think I’d go hiking with him. I’ve heard some horrible stories about him, like leaving people behind, like, hey, let’s go and, and skill K2. And then you get halfway there and he kind of looks at you like you’re, you’re kind of dead weight. I’m just going to keep going on without you. And I feel like you can extrapolate that maybe to the rest of his endeavors throughout his life.

So one of the big frames that I bring to my approach to magic right now is the concept of story, right? And so if you are telling a story about how something in your life happened to you, how you ended up moving to the city you live in, or got the job or met your partner, you have to Leave out a lot of information. Like, you’re not going to be like, ah, let me just give you a minute by minute what I ate every day for, you know, my whole life to get to this. So there’s always this editing process, and then if you’re a good storyteller, you know how to highlight certain details.

And none of this is lying. It’s just, you know, leaving out some of the details that don’t work and amplifying it. And I think when we have an experience of magic, that’s what happens. And that happens in both ways that we would talk about magic, you know, magic with a C or magic with a ck. So if a card magician does a trick in front of you, your brain has that experience of it being mind blown, and it lets go of a lot of the extraneous steps. And so you will then turn around when your friend comes in the room and be like, dude, this trick was crazy.

He knew my card. He didn’t even look at it. He totally looked like. You’re editing out the steps to make it feel more impressive because you want to convey how impressive it was. So there’s this natural thing that magicians talk about. If they can do a trick and then watch somebody immediately tell the story about a better trick that was impossible that they didn’t do. It’s this heightened version. And I think if you do magic with a CK to have something happen, you’re going to turn that into a story, right? Dude, it’s so crazy. I got fired from my job.

I did this ritual the next day, and then this job that was so perfect had me come in for an interview, and I got it. It’s amazing. The magic worked. Okay, that might take a month process and shorten it down. That might remove. Well, then I, like, you know, was really worried, and I applied to this other job, but I got to the final round of interviews, but then I didn’t get it. And then I went for this. You know, you shorten that down and kind of pull that in and bring it together. And I think Crowley did that specifically, you know, in his biographies and lying about himself and, you know, kind of building his own legend.

But also somebody who’s a little bit more megalomaniacal is going to have great stories about being magical because they’re going to leave out the information that doesn’t fit the narrative. I really like Alejandro Jodorowsky, but whenever I read his books on psycho magic, I’m always like, oh, I would love to hear from a few more sources about this, because he’ll have people come to his Tarot clinic in Paris or whatever, and he’s like, oh, this person showed up. And I did this reading, and I realized they were holding this trauma from their father who had died of colon cancer.

So I had them into a bag for a week and carry the bag of their around, and then they were free of hemorrhoids forever. And he’s so convinced about it. But, like, I’m curious about what else is going on. And I don’t know if you’ve experienced this, but I’ve known people who, you know, you watch them tell the story of the party that you went to together last week, and you’re like, were we at the same event? Like, you watch all the details get changed around, which makes it more magical. I like that thread, that there’s, like, a storytelling aspect to it, I think another component of Crowley and.

And I. I fully realize my bias of putting lots on him because he. He was who ran the Satanic section of the Barnes and Noble when I was growing up, right? It was like Aleister Crowley and Anton Lavey, essentially. That’s them. Yeah. So. So Aleister Crowley, though, also seems like he had this bad boy renegade sort of ambiance to him, like, this aura, because he would get into, like, a Rosicrucian camp and just kind of blow it up. Just like, hey, let’s all do mescaline and have an orgy. And they’re like, whoa, guys, that’s not what we’re about here.

And he’s like, all right, well, maybe the OTO is more about this or maybe like, this other group. And he kind of jumps around and goes. And he gets, like, the Masonic degrees conferred. And then after they. They basically raise them, they’re like, oh, this guy’s a lunatic. Like, we don’t want anything to do with this guy. Let’s kick him out of here. And at a certain point, he sort of turns into. Maybe this is a dated reference, but there was, like, that show on fox in the 2000s. It was like the. The faceless magician that would, like, show you how all these big magic show.

He kind of does that, but he also has, like, a Gigi Allen Persona so that, like, if you can’t handle the G.G. allen presentation of what I’m about to give you, then I’m. I’m kind of, like, courting you off. Like, you’re not ready to. To know how I do a magic trick, like a card trick, unless you see me, like, wiping feces all over myself. And that doesn’t repulse you? Yeah. And I think it’s important to remember that, like, he was doing a lot of drugs. You know, he was like a cocaine addict for a large part of this.

You know, if you hang around with coke addicts, like, you get the vibe, oh, man, here’s all the things that we’re going to do. And you’re like, whoa, this is exciting. Like, we’re going to not do most of these, actually. You know, and there’s this kind of hyperbole. And some people are going to go, no, thank you. And some people are going to go, wow, this is so exciting and charismatic. Sign me up. But then, you know, Crowley also has the trail of, you know, friends that are pissed that he borrowed money from them or jilted lovers or friends that he left on the side of K2.

It’s. It’s complex also. Yeah. Crowley and drugs. And, you know, is cocaine in most wizards toolboxes? Because it does seem like a wizardy thing to have. I don’t know about most wizards. There’s a great quote from Freud where he talks about how great cocaine is. And he’s like, I gave a speech and I like, I don’t know what I was talking about, but it was very convincing and I felt very smart. I talked for hours. But, you know, I think with any of these things, exploring substances is a personal choice. And there’s ways that they could unlock things.

And then, I mean, the history of magic is full of cautionary tales. So do what thou wilt, and the do it thou will kind of spread. This is where maybe I have a little bit more insight, because once it makes its way to America, I care more because I’m Americans, and anything American is superior than anything that’s just pure European. That’s what I’ve been raised to understand. And that once Crowley, his perspective, not just a man, he came to visit America for a while, but, like, his magic and his philosophy makes it over here, I guess, in the form of like a Jack Parsons slash L.

Ron Hubbard way, and then slowly sort of morphs into, I guess, Scientology on one front. And then I mentioned Anton Lavey earlier. You can almost draw like a direct line where it kind of splinters out a little bit from, okay, here’s the Dianetics angle, here’s the OTO angle, and then here’s this, like, Hollywood Church of Satan angle. And it seems that, like, that is like, we don’t have any of those dynamics without Crowley starting at first. And you Know, to tie together like, you know, early Dianetics is very hypnosis based as well. I forget the auditing was very hypnotic.

And like, we’re kind of going back through your life with hypnosis and a more formal induction, which I think they’ve, they’ve changed over time. I’m not an expert on Scientology, but you know, all of these things kind of become. They take on a life of their own. Right. You know, hey, I really like these guys ideas. And okay, we’re building up an org around it and now the org needs to, to keep functioning. And let’s play down some of the things that we don’t like and let’s promote some of the things that make more money. And suddenly here we go, we have a whole new thing.

So in this, this angle of NLP being a way to pattern successful techniques and that some aspects of magic and mesmerism, hypnosis could technically in a way allow you to have some sort of a manipulative advantage over those that aren’t aware that they’re susceptible to suggestion. The same way that you realize that you are and that they are. And it kind of pulls in sometimes like an ethical dilemma. And I guess in, in my mind it’s, it’s really difficult to parse because you’ve got maybe an extreme example. Jim Jones, pretty much straight out of the womb, is like a, like a street preacher to children.

When he’s like 7 years old, he’s giving street sermons and he’s using this call and response technique of, of rhetoric in order to get people like under his wing. And it’s not like someone sat him down and they’re like, here’s how you’re going to brainwash people. Here’s how you’re going to start your cult. He just kind of came out of the womb and he had like charisma points were at like 99 or whatever, right? Like he didn’t ask for it, he just kind of had it. And then you’ve got someone that maybe has an incredibly altruistic vision of the world.

They, they truly have compelling ideas that can benefit human humanity objectively, but have negative charisma points. And it’s like, hey guys, what if we do this? And it’s like, God, that guy is such a creep. Like, what a weirdo. Don’t listen to anything he says. So that guy with altruistic intent could technically sit down and learn like, okay, what does Jim Jones have that I don’t? Oh, that. The way that he speaks, the way that he carries himself. Here’s all these, like, NLP style techniques of like, breaking down and modeling his, his performance. Well, this gets into an ethical debate, I guess, because if two people are, are basically the same across the board and then one starts practicing NLP and it’s like, oh, if I mirror your movements and I build rapport, then you can be accused of, like, you are manipulating people.

You are becoming a manipulative mind controller. And that, that is, is almost like an objectively bad thing. I’m not. I’m just saying that’s like a perception. Especially when you get into this world of like, NLP modeling and hypnosis. Do you have any thoughts on, like, how to meter this out? Well, I think seduction is a great arts and mystery. And the pickup artists. Yeah. Well, I mean, even just like, just person to person, like, if somebody has that natural charisma and they’re like, wow, I’m interested in that person I’m going to go talk with. They are seductive.

And that person’s like, great, like, I like you. I want to go home with you. Like, you know, okay, some people are naturally gifted at that time for this car for me, but we think it’s creepier if someone’s like, I’m on high alert. Who am I going to seduce? Oh, that person. I know I’m going to use method number C and I’ve got it all written out. There’s just something that gives us a little bit more ick about it. And I think sometimes people can learn skills and get better at it. And sometimes no matter how much they wrote, memorize all the things, they just still suck at it.

I used to take improv classes and they are breaking down how to be funny. And then you go see one of the, like, you know, better groups perform. And the best performers are like, kind of not playing by the rules. They’re just like, really funny and kind of organically doing it. And then you go to a mediocre show and you’re seeing people go, okay, it has to have three beats. So, oh, there’s the one beat, there’s the two beat, there’s the third beat. And you’re like, this is so tedious. Like, oh my God, kill me. So the question that I think you’re asking is like, where do we draw the line about influence? When am I influencing somebody without trying too hard? Naturally, I’m just being myself, and that feels more okay.

And when am I using techniques that are weird and manipulative? And some of that, I think, comes down to Transparency, Right. You know, if I’m going to go pick up somebody and I say, hi, I think you’re really attractive, I’m going to try and pick you up. Is that okay with you? And they’re like, oh, that was kind of forward and charming. Like, sure. Like, okay, they know the game we’re playing. Like, they’re open for it. I have consent. Like, we can move forward. Whereas if you met somebody and you dated them for three months and then suddenly you found their, you know, pin board with all of the ways that they were analyzing the conversations they recorded and figuring out how to, like, you know, move the relationship along, you’re going to be freaked out.

And that’s a perf. That’s a perfect example, right? Because I guess in. In my mind, both of those scenarios can be happening. The. The smooth talker that doesn’t give the ick, that’s, like, seamlessly integrating in this and everything like that. That whiteboard can be in their brain somewhere, but the second that you manifest it in reality so someone else can see it and see how, like, the sausage is made, then it’s like, ew, gross. Like, I feel manipulated. But. But really, all things being equal, it’s like they’re the same thing. One is just when the magic is revealed, and the other one is when you get to keep it a secret.

And then you can also imagine the flip, though, where the person who’s the natural, we’ll start talking about this as conscious and unconscious. So the person who’s unconsciously seductive, they are not running a program that they know of. They’re just good at it. They’re just, you know, natural. Yeah, you can date someone like that and be so charmed. And then eventually you start to realize how you’re being manipulated and you break up and you come out of it and you’re like, oh, my God, I’ve been dating a narcissist. This is awful. Like, this person’s horrible, and you have all of the ick, you know? Whereas you can meet somebody who is very consciously trying to do it and realize that, like, oh, my God, they’re an awkward person who had to take a class on, like, how to make friends.

And, like, they’re very sweet and they’re very open to learning. And I think it all comes down to, do you feel respected? Is your autonomy and free will something that that person sees as an obstacle to getting what they want? Or is it a dance that you’re doing together? You know, a pushy salesman sends you out the door and you bought something you didn’t want with all the bells and whistles added on, and you got kind of ripped off, and you kind of come out of the trance and you’re like, wait, oh, God, why did I buy all this stuff? This sucks.

Whereas a good salesperson can be, like, very helpful and informative, and you leave and you’re like, man, this sound system’s great. That guy was super helpful. This is exactly what I wanted. So I think respecting the other person’s free will is paramount. It’s what keeps you from being a creep. Okay, I definitely see that from the ethical standpoint, counterpoint, maybe, is that really we’re talking about perception here? Because if I’m. If I am good enough at manipulating you, then you go home and you do think that sound system is great, and you do think you got a great deal, even if I know that I absolutely ripped you off.

So it’s really more of, like, how good are you at being manipulative? And the better that you are also, like, almost the more neutral you can come across as versus the same salesman. If they slip up a little bit and they kind of, like, reveal their hand that, like, oh, wait a minute. This guy’s been mirroring me, and he’s feeding my own words back to me. The same stereo system, but you’re like, I hate this radio. I hate the way this thing sounds. Yeah, well, you know, I manipulate people for a living. That’s what I do.

Somebody comes to me and they believe that they can’t quit smoking, that they’re stuck, that they’re in a loop, that there’s no way for them to do this. And I use language and experience to help change that person’s mind. And that is what they’ve come to me for. So, you know, I think that’s where the agreement is above board. Because I manipulate them in a way that they’re asking to be manipulated, Whereas when that’s fuzzier, that’s where it gets into more problematic territory. But the truth is that we are all influencing people, being influenced by people being manipulated.

If you think that you’re not being manipulated, you’re wrong. I’m sorry, the world is manipulating you. One of the characters, I guess, that you play, I don’t know. But when you go onto the subway and you’re like this, you’re all your different monikers, right? Like the Subway wizard. And. But that you’ll kind of interact with people that weren’t expecting to see a wizard today and sort of make an impact on their day, that day. And. And I assume that you realize that you just wearing the outfit is kind of attracting or even, like, putting someone into a certain trance or a mind state, just seeing you there and maybe, like, breaking down some barriers.

Maybe other people put them up and they’re like, like, oh, what’s this crazy guy doing in. And they just, like, leave immediately. But, like, yeah, can. Can. If you’re fully decked out and you’ve got your. Your wizard outfit on, your hats on, are you, like, pinpointing, like, oh, that person is gonna totally work, or is it way more organic and exploratory? It’s 100% organic and exploratory. And when I started, I thought, oh, I should have, like, a magic trick. Someone’s gonna be like, you’re a wizard. Do something. And I didn’t want to do a card trick, but I wanted something.

And I realize that that’s actually the opposite of what I’m trying to do. What I am doing is I am just being something that does not fit into normal reality and defies categorization. So when somebody comes on the subway and they first see me, it’s kind of funny. Like, oh, my God, there’s a wizard. Like, it’s New York. There’s a guy dressed like a wizard. Like, how funny. And then I don’t interact with them. They have to interact with me. So that was. The thing is, you know, there’s so many other street performers and things. I didn’t want to come on and go, hey, everybody, it’s a wizard.

How’s it going? We’re going to. Oh, let me. You know. And so when somebody interacts, they’re cycling through what’s going on here. Are you filming something? Is this for YouTube? Is this, like. Is this, like a sales thing? Like, what’s going on? And when I’m just a human being that is actually not lying to them in any way other than, you know, hey, I’m a wizard. Take with that what you will. That’s what shifts things. And so, you know, people will be like, do something magic. And I’m like, you’re speaking to a stranger on the New York subway.

How’s that for magic? And then they actually have a genuine moment of kind of like, oh, wow. Yeah, you’re right. And that’s the magic of change in accordance with will. Right? I put on these clothes. These clothes are symbolic, and they match with an archetype, and that leads somebody to do something that they wouldn’t normally do. It’s still in their own free will, it doesn’t force them, but it invites them into a different experience. And then I am honest. I’m not claiming supernatural powers. I’m not saying, you know, give me $20, I’m gonna lift a curse.

I don’t ask for money. And that kind of breaks their expectation because they’re waiting for the moment of, like, don’t you want money? Like, isn’t capitalism like, you’re following me off of the subway car now? Like, where’s my 20? And then that’s gonna get violated. Not at all. No. And that’s where, you know, people have this expectation, and I’m just creating this authentic human experience where I’m like, no, all of those categories are wrong. You get to choose what to make of this. Like, I’m giving you an experience. And you can go, wow, okay, that was weird.

And then you can get off, or you can be like, I asked this wizard for help quitting drinking. I’ve been struggling with my drinking. And this moment where I said this out loud to a wizard creates a store, a story point. And if somebody wants to anchor change to that, they can. And so they can be at a party seven years from now, and someone’s like, man, John, how’d you get sober? You’re not going to believe it, but I met a wizard in the subway. That’s why I tell my hypnosis clients, too. Like, I’m here to help you tell the story about how this thing changed.

And that story is what supports that change and keeps it ongoing. I’ve got a whole list of other questions, and there’s only one efficient way to get through all of these in the time that we’ve got here. So let me just play a little bit around. This is exactly what’s going to happen. Here we go. I double dare you to take some pcp. The Paranormal Conspiracy Probe. On your marks, get set and go. Okay. Some guest request to do some actual pcp. I no longer send that out for legal reasons. But if you have your own piece of.

Hey, you are free to do it right now. My mom watches this show, so. No, no. So here’s how it works. I’m just going to mention a certain topic or make a statement, and I just want you to rate it from 1 to 10. So one’s going to be like, you don’t believe it at all. Five is, you could be persuaded away. And 10’s like, you’re the head of the fan club. So if I were to start out and said, like, Bigfoot, for example. Where would you rate Bigfoot in veracity on 1 to 10? Like 4.

How about the concept of flat earth? 0. How about the concept of hollow earth? 0.5. How about psychic abilities? And I can be more specific if you want, but I’m leaving it general for the second. How about celebrity clones? Like one. What about reptilian shape shifting aliens? David iker V style? 3. Okay, so significantly more than flat earth, what about little gray aliens? Well, I guess we need to clarify, like, okay, I believe in these as ideas and I think when we get literal, that’s where we kind of lose them. But like, are there weird things, things that run through the human imagination? Like.

Absolutely. So I take a very non literal approach to these sorts of entities. From leprechauns to gray aliens. Yeah. Okay. How about the concept that deja vu is some sort of a message? Like seven. How about dinosaurs? And I mean like you go into the natural museum of Natural History and you see the dinosaur bones all mounted up on the wall. How accurate is that? Oh, accurate, six or seven. What about just the concept of dinosaurs in general? Oh yeah, full send on dinosaurs for sure. Okay, how about dragons having ever existed in history? I don’t know.

And I, I like that I don’t know. But I’m definitely open to dragons. Open like a two or open like a five? Oh, probably open like a seven. Okay, how. There’s some qualifiers in this statement, so don’t, don’t rush to judgment. A human being has stepped foot on the moon in the last 100 years. Notice I didn’t mention any specific governments or operations. Just a human being has stepped foot on the moon last hundred years. 9. How about that Stanley Kubrick was hired for B roll in case something went wrong for the Apollo landing missions. How, how accurate do you think that that even could have been orchestrated and happened? Like three.

How about the biblical concept of angels? That’s broad category. Even the biblical concept. I mean, King James werewolf guy. What’s the King James werewolf connection? I think King James believed in werewolves. He also, he like wrote extensively on like Cryptids and monsters. The Twilight edition of the Bible. That would be the Mormon Book of Mormon, actually. Yeah, I mean, again, like this is the domain where I think culture takes things really literal and turns it into like an angel visits you and it’s like a guy standing in your apartment. Whereas I think rapturous experience. I mean like DMT entities like DMT entities exist because people experience them, but that doesn’t mean that they’re Sitting in Dimension X just like waiting for us.

We only have the human side of the experience. But yeah, angels, like yeah, seven. Yeah, eight. Okay, how about demons? Is it the same answer? Because just the other polarity. Yeah. Okay, some more qualifiers here. And this is you kind of like we’re leading into this a little bit earlier and I had to like contain myself and save it for now. Now, so 1 to 10 that an atheist, or at least an agnostic, like a staunch skeptic, can order how to Summon a Demon for Dummies on Amazon. It gets print on demanded, sent directly to you, overnighted and you read it from start to finish that you can summon a demon at the end of that process.

And, and the reason for some of those qualifiers are like, it didn’t go through a mystical like, like Crowley or John D. Didn’t put a spell on it. It didn’t like it. It is basically untouched by human hands, generated by computers until it hits your doorstep. And now you’re just reciting all of the, all the, the magical incantations, essentially. So what does it mean for you to summon a demon eternal? Like you are being judged by a biblical God and then. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, you, you let, you let the wrong one in. Essentially you just, you invited.

So an atheist orders. I mean, you know, if you, if you’re, if you’re already ordering books on Amazon, you’re, you’re lining up for hell. Okay, you’ve already started the first step of a demonic incantation. But I mean, you know, again, this is where like, I’m sorry to give the same answer again and again, but like, if we think about demons as something that is intersecting with our realm, then it’s not just a creature that looks like a dog, that talks like a dog, that like, you know, has the same physical substance. It’s an emotional experience. It might be a mental image.

So if you follow the instructions, sure, you can have an experience of, of getting really angry or even having an experience that you can’t fully explain. But also you can go through instructions and be like, this isn’t working. You know, I can write down instructions on how to have an orgasm. And if you do them really half assed with a like this isn’t going to work attitude, you could fail. Like, you could be unsuccessful. So yeah, 1 to 10 that cryogenesis works today? No. How about can ever work ever? Yeah, 10. Okay, how about the concept that AI can be used for ultimate good? I mean, we’re gonna have to define ultimate good.

Okay. Objectively improving humanity in ways that are not completely capitalistic in nature. Yes, I believe in fully automated luxury space communism, but Star Trek? Yeah, yeah. How about social media could be used for good in our lifetimes? It absolutely could. Like, this is what drives me crazy is we are like, we’ve seen this process of insidification happen in our lifetimes. I remember where Facebook was a place that was great. If you met someone traveling, you can like follow them and keep up with them. And then when you’re traveling in that city again, you’re like, hey, guy that I met in Spain four years ago, let’s go get a beer.

That was great. Seeing what events are going on was awesome. But like, AI slop is not awesome. So these are human choices that are being made that are negatively impacting us. Like a dating app doesn’t have to be bad. We have the technology to help figure out who you would be compatible with based on questions and aesthetic preferences and find who in the area is looking for someone like you and bring you two together. These are solvable problems. Just like global hunger. Like we’re living in artificial scarcity. It’s the real conspiracy is operating right in front of us with one person having hundreds of billion dollars and then acting like, like, oh, there’s not enough to go around.

Okay. And I’m glad that you picked up on the, the operative words there, which is like, social media could be used for good. How about social media will be used for good in our lifetimes? I guess this is more of, of. Are you an optimist or a pessimist? I’m both. I’m a short term pessimist and a long term optimist. I think, think that we are about to break a whole lot of functional things in a really big way. And I think for most of us in our lifetime, we’re gonna see the negative consequences of that. But we also live in an era that’s seen changes before.

I mean, you know what, people thought industrialization was going to be like the worst case of that, you know? Well, I guess we’re, we kind of just exported that to the global South. But you know, there’s a lot of ways that things were kind of going in one direction and people go, wait a minute, this is horrible. Let’s, you know, let’s pull back on this. Oh, maybe it’s a bad idea that everyone smokes cigarettes and we should pull back on that. But then, well, not Lucky’s Luckies are actually prescribed by some doctors. Exactly. Yeah. And now we can just vape you know, caramel latte monster energy drink flavored nicotine.

So there you go. Don’t you threaten me with a good time. And I have to sneak this one in because this is a conspiracy centered podcast. 911 was an inside job. 1 to 10. That’s like a 9.11. Okay. Yeah. I also accept 11 sometimes somewhere between a 9 and an 11. Okay. Yeah. So we’ve talked about all sorts of wizardry and magic and John D. And Aleister Crowley. I even got to sneak in dinosaurs and Dianetics. What other topics do you think? If we were to do a part two that, that we left on the table, what would be some good ones to venture into? I mean, I think the conspiracy of conspiracy theories.

Like, you know, as a wizard, I’m always going for that meta thing and I think that’s the, the lens that the conspiracy theory movement needs to investigate of, like, what are the psyop conspiracies that are being used to manipulate people almost transparently? And then what are the actual conspiracies that are kind of, again, hiding in plain sight? You know, how are we ignoring what has happened in Silicon Valley in the last 20 years of VC funds just being used to pursue unicorns so they can dominate a market and then drive out all competition and then just shove a shitty product down our throat? Like, like that’s definitely a conspiracy.

Those men are on group text together. Like, we know this. But then something like QAnon, where you’re constantly being edged that there’s going to be a reckoning and Donald Trump is going to execute pedophile Democrats, like, that is a political tool that is being used to oppress people. Well, that’s only after JFK, JFK Jr. Comes back and he’s gonna run all of that. That’s basically the beginning of the rapture. That’s what I understand. Yeah. I mean, you know the one, I mean, like, you know, the Epstein one is everywhere right now, but it boggles my mind to see mainstream media coverage about it where they have to just like hand wave of like, yes, we don’t really know where his money came from.

And yes, you know, he got this sweetheart deal, but the conspiracy theorists are out of control with these other allegations. And it’s like, those deserve more than a sentence. Like, those are big parts of it. Well, this is actually an interesting can of worms. We won’t go too deep into this one, but Epstein’s a great example. Right. And this was also because, I mean, I kind of like to proudly put this badge on That I was a conspiracy theorist since like 8 or 9. Like it’s the first time I saw X Files. I almost have this idea that 80s 90s media consumption was conspiracy by default.

You would just see a guy in the background whispering into like an earpiece and you’re like, oh, that’s a government agent man in black. And you don’t even have to understand what any of that means. You just knew that the government’s listening always. And there’s all these conspiracies going on, but sometime around like Occupy Wall street or I’m just gonna. Broad strokes here, but once Occupy Wall street came out, I noticed like say like the 911 truther movement, which was kind of like an early QAnon esque, at least in terms of like, like logic, that originally it was.

Oh my God, you’re so left wing. How dare you? That’s blasphemy. I think the word was blasphemy of like, how could you ever consider the government would do something. Don’t. Don’t talk to me about Northwoods. We’re going to forget about Northwoods for now. But this is horrible. Who could. What kind of leftist brain rot liberal nonsense and that it was usually hand in hand with like, oh, let me guess, you’re going to call Bush a Nazi now you’re going to imply that he’s in some kind of a death cult that dates back to the, the early like 18th century Illuminati or something.

And then there’s like a trans transition where Epstein was also being like almost like a right wing conspiracy theory. And now it’s almost shifted to like left wing conspiracy. Now if you’re like, hey, what about those Epstein files? Hey, what is anything gonna happen now? I mean in real time? I’m almost observing over the last year a shift from if you talk about Epstein, you’re in Alex Jones’s weird alt right camp to if you talk about Epstein now. Since Trump and everyone else came out, it’s like, oh, it’s, it’s a non issue. There are no files, there was no black book.

Now it’s like drop it or else you are, you are now left wing again. And it, it’s this weird teeter tottering where like the politic, the political agenda of a specific conspiracy theory jumps back and forth. Even though if the, the core believers in that group are also not jumping between these political polls. And if you imagine a knife fight, right, Two people in a knife fight, but there’s only one knife, it’s gonna change, right? You Know the knife is gonna be pointed at one person and held by the other person until it gets wrestled away and then it gets reversed.

So when the Democrats are in power and it’s useful to whip up all of this fervor around the Epstein files for Donald Trump, which again, it’s been obvious he’s in the files the whole time. Like his, his followers are very good at dissociating from the. He’s essentially a cl. Democrat at heart anyways. Like that’s where. That’s where he came from. Yeah, like that’s where it’s politically useful. And then when it becomes politically useful for the Dems to use it, you know, it switches back and forth. But you know, the, the thing that I’ll say about conspiracies in general, but you know, this is my favorite example is the disinformation company put out a book.

I think it’s in you are being lied to, the one that’s kind of on conspiracies. And it’s just essays from different people. And one of them is on 9 11. And it’s not, you know, loose change. It’s not here’s this whole narrative. It is just news clippings from different papers at the time like into like, you know, from like 9:12 through like a month later that have fallen out of the narrative. You know, reports of box cutters found on other planes and all of this different stuff. And when you read this, you see all of these loose ends that get shed as the narrative coalesces.

And we’re watching this happen in real time right now. I mean, the Wall Street Journal immediately blasting out that these bullets that shot Charlie Kirk had trans ideology on it. You know, that is such a distortion of what’s actually going on. But that is currently this hot potato that is being trying to thrown at the other camp. And eventually there will be a narrative and there will be a whole story about this is what happened and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But we are seeing, you know, different power structures try and manipulate that evidence right now.

And what’s a shocking counterpoint to that is, you know, watching how much news coverage this is getting. And this is going to stay in the news. I mean, our attention span will move on to the next crisis, but, you know, I think we’ll see the trial and stuff play out with media coverage. Whereas the Luigi Mangioni thing, there is a obvious conspiracy to keep that from being in the news. You’re not getting New York Times updates on. Here’s how the, you know, pretrial stuff is moving along or the case is being built. Any other big news case like that would be having a level of coverage that is just.

It is censorship, it is omission. It is just we know if we give it any energy, it’s going to feed it and we’ve got to keep it down because we don’t want copycats to absolutely butcher and paraphrase a quote that I don’t remember the source of. But sometimes the news is more about what it isn’t meaning. Like whatever the stories that made it to the paper today, they’re there to make sure that the other stories that would have been occupying that real estate are not in there. And that’s where you get the fluff pieces and like the outrage.

Yeah. And I think, you know, with the, you know, the kind of meta lens I’m trying to bring to, you know, the whole conspiracy thing, it’s like, question the conspiracies. You know, why am I talking about this niche thing and not this other thing? Why is this one getting so much more attention? And we’re entering an era where these narratives are being manipulated. Like the, the 2016 election was a wake up call about information warfare and that is what’s going on behind the scenes. So, you know, AI bots are trying to tilt the conversation on X and government agents are messaging each other on discords and telegram channels, trying to pretend that they’re, you know, left wing activists to piss off.

This people are right wing to piss off. You know, it’s, it’s all psyops all the way down. So I’ve been talking to a real life wizard. This is Devin Person, AKA the Subway Wizard, AKA Gandalf of Greenpoint, AKA the weed smoking Brooklyn Wizard. You’ve also got a podcast called this podcast is a ritual, which I also fully believe. I mean, I think that podcasts are absolutely rituals. You’ve also got a book that you just released called so Let It Be Written A Wizard’s Guide to Meta Fiction, which you can find on your website. You’ve got it on Lulu.

Your website is person isawake.com I feel like that’s a hypnotic suggestion in its own. I’m sure that’s not lost on you. Did I miss anything? Any other plugs that you’ve got? Any other places for people to find you? What, what car? At what time can people expect to find a wizard? You can never expect to find a wizard. You just happen upon them. But yeah, you can reach out to me. I do see clients for magical and hypnotic purposes. So if any of this resonates and you’re interested in changing something in your life. Yeah. Message me through my website.

And yeah, that’s something that we can work on and give the platinum package. I believe that you offer guarantees. No eternal damnation. Right. Even if something goes wrong. No eternal damnation. Or is that off the table now? I don’t do guarantees. That’s the only guarantee I’ll make. Okay, that’s scary. You need to offer a platinum package that has that guaranteed. I’m just letting you know that it would be a smart practice, an extra 50 bucks to just not go to hell forever. Yeah. Are you afraid of hell? Yeah. No. I think that it’s a fascinating topic that you can do one oopsie and find yourself.

My other favorite question is like, is there an unforgivable sin? And if so, what is that unforgivable sin? Yeah. I’ve got one response that I actually really liked. Someone said, yeah, of course. It’s called stupidity. Yeah. I think stupidity is inevitable. My favorite hell conspiracy is that, you know, it, it’s built on our own expectations. So the people that live their life terrified of hell and are so afraid of going there, that have built this up, that’s what they’re going to kind of create when their consciousness transcends the material realm and they’re. They’re kind of making a hell for themselves.

Which is why, you know, I try and help people release their belief system so we can have a heaven on earth. I appreciate that. I will say that all of the paranoid American products on the website do come with a guarantee of no eternal damnation. So even if Devin person’s not willing to extend that guarantee to you, I am. Unless they’re cursed by Devin and then they actually do guarantee damnation. Learn about the full history of the Bavarian Illuminati. Adam Weishaupt Alumbrados Jesuits, Rosicrucians, Freemasons and more. From the 18th century to modern day we expose it all.

That’s right. It’s the Illuminati comic from Donut and paranoid American. Get yours now@illuminaticomic.com I scribbled my life away driven the right to page Will it enlight your brain give you the flight my plane paper the highs ablaze somewhat of an amazing feel when it’s real to real you will engage it your favorite, of course, the lord of an arrangement I gave you the proper results to hit the pavement if they get emotional. Hey, maybe your language a game. How they playing it well without Lakers evade them whatever the cause they are to shapeshift snakes get decapitated, Met is the apex, execution of flame you out.

Nuclear bomb distributed at war? Rather gruesome for eyes to see. Max them out that I light my trees, blow it off in the face. You’re despising me for what Though calculated you’d rather cut throat Paranoid American must be all the blood smoke for real? Lord, give me your day your way. Vacate they wait around to hate whatever they say, but man, it’s not in the least bit? We get heavy rotate when the beat hits so than cuz you’re welcome, for real, you’re welcome? They ain’t never had a deal? You’re welcome, man, they lacking appeal, you’re welcome, yet they doing it still you’re welcome.
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