Summary
➡ The text discusses different perspectives on the concept of hell, its existence, and its nature. It suggests that hell might not be about physical torment, but rather eternal separation from God. The text also questions traditional views of salvation and the afterlife, suggesting that these concepts might be more complex and nuanced than commonly believed. The conversation ends with a debate on whether God would ever give up on someone, implying that God’s forgiveness could be endless.
➡ This text discusses the complexities of Christian faith, questioning the nature of God, salvation, and the concept of eternal torment. It suggests that God’s love and forgiveness are enduring, and that every person has the potential to be saved through Christ. The text also highlights the importance of questioning and understanding one’s faith, rather than blindly following religious teachings. It ends by criticizing the judgmental nature of some religious people, suggesting that there may be more grace and mercy outside the church than within it.
➡ The speaker emphasizes the importance of love, repentance, and understanding God’s nature. They believe that people should strive to improve themselves and free themselves from their personal hells. They also stress that everyone will face the consequences of their actions, as per the principle of ‘reaping what you sow’. Lastly, they share a personal journey of realizing their inherent worth and truth, which was initially suppressed by societal and religious influences.
Transcript
This is going to be fun. Right? So now, here’s the. Here’s the question. Here’s the question. You and I, we kind of met each other through what’s going on with daystar. There’s a huge scandal. Okay. And there is no right. And we kind of came out on. We’ll say we. We used a different approach. I would say a more graceful approach, but that’s how I got to know you. And then I started watching just. I mean, you’re a really big influencer on X, by the way. All the links are going to be in the description of this young man who, by the way, I don’t know old you are.
But you. You seem very wise. You. You younger. You look younger probably than you are. Yes. Well, I tell people I’m 41, which is the truth. Okay. But. But I have eight kids. We got married three weeks after high school. Wow. Got four biological kids and then several others that we’ve adopted because we have a passion for foster care. Adoption. Oh, wonderful. I have. For myself, I. And I have one that is a like. Well, he’s like my son. He’s my stepson, where they’re all with us. I had custody of mine, my wife. We’re a remarriage.
One of the reasons why I want to do this, for example, because when I first got divorced, you know, it was a big deal, you know, if you’re working for a big Christian, you know, company, they don’t know the ins and the outs. But for whatever reason, you know, Jacob, just like the Bible, you know, Leah didn’t work out, so I ended up meeting my beautiful wife and I had custody of my children full time. She had custody of hers, and we became a blended family. But One of the things that I’ve been passionate about for a long time, obviously on the channel, if you’re new, welcome, please do hit the like button.
Share, subscribe, do. All that stuff is the things of God and, you know, working for, you know, one of the largest Christian television networks in the world, which right now is going through the fire. I call it, I don’t know if you saw any of this stuff online, but I call it like Samson’s fire. It’s like Samson’s coming for his bride and he doesn’t like the state of the thing, so he’s going to just light the whole thing on fire. And it seems like they’ve all brought their torches to, to burn the building down. We’re going to pray and hope that everything works out because you want restoration in the family.
But I think that the reason why these social media influencers are so ravenous, you know, these foxes, I call them, is because of some, maybe some of their core central beliefs. Like maybe they don’t really know the God that I know, maybe the God that you know. So I asked you on, I asked Dr. Malachi on, and he’s brave because I’ve done this to a lot of other people and a lot of other people don’t want to be challenged on some of their beliefs. They don’t want to do this. So first of all, I want to thank you for coming.
And I just figured maybe we’ll have a conversation, I’ll ask you some questions and maybe we can hit on it. Anything you want to get out before we start? Well, I would just say I’m often wrong, but I’m seldom in doubt. And so this is going to be, these are going to be like core Christian beliefs. We’ll say like salvation hell, we’ll touch on a couple of them. Well, let me just say on the front end, thank you again. And I love the show. I love the position you have taken online. And, you know, you’re right, because people, we have to ask ourselves why people do what they do.
And so I do think there’s definitely a spiritual component of what they believe. But, but I also believe that one of the reasons why people do what they do online, good or bad, is it meets a, it meets a human need for them. And so one thing Tony Robbins teaches is we have six human needs. And so just to fast forward, I think people do what they do online, good or bad, for the most part. Not everybody, but a lot of people, especially in this moment we’re in. And the people that we’re referring to is it’s a need for significance.
And so oftentimes to get significance, you have to either view yourself as better than other people or you have to tear others down. Well, that’s interesting because that’s, that’s viewing yourself as better than others is a big ego boost. Okay? So that’s a really important thing. So I’ll give you an example because some Christians will say that I’ve known. We’ll look at other people and they’ll say, they’ll say, oh, they’re not saved. Okay, for example, so it puts them somewhere that, where if they’ve done something better than another. Okay. And so like one of, one of the first questions I want to ask you is that out of everyone that God gave the Son to save, how many did he lose? Well, I would just say this.
Well, like, let me just. Because obviously in theology debates there is the Calvinism and the Arminianism debate. And so like strictly from like the Bible where it says, out of all that you’ve given me, Father, I’ve lost how many. Yeah, he’s, he’s okay. Of all the things given, he’s lost a lot of them because the Scripture says I’ve lost not one save the Son of perdition. So in other words, out of all that was given to the Son to save, he didn’t lose any of them except for the Son of perdition. And that would be interpreted as Judas.
It’s Judas, correct? Correct. The Son of perdition. Perdition is another word for hell. Okay, so it would be the Son of Hell. And you probably remember when Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, you know, he didn’t have the best relationship with the religious minded. They had a very different view of God. Much like I feel sometimes that I feel I have a little bit of a different view of, of God than we’ll say some religious people. But he, he uses this interesting line where he says, you’ve made them twice more the Son of predition, the Son of Hell, than you are yourself.
So then the question becomes, well, what is hell and how can you be a child of hell and what is it that we’re saved from? You know, that’s the big question. Like, what would you say? What are we saved from eternally? Sure. Well, let me just go back that last question just real fast because obviously Scripture interprets Scripture. And so we have to recon, take that verse and then reconcile it with Jesus said, you know, I came to seek and save that which was lost. He says, I’m not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance.
But then you go to Revelation, and he says that they whose names were not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And so what else? Yeah, you know what else? That’s. You’re right. You’re right. Every nature. That word name means nature. Every nature that is not written in the book of life. So in other words, are we. We’re living epistles, so we’re the book. So every nature that’s not written in the epistle of life, in Christ, cast away. Okay, now here’s a question. Do you know what else is cast into the lake of fire? Satan is cast.
Right. And two other things. Because, for example, do you believe that hell is endless? Yes, I believe in a traditional view of hell. Yeah, well, hell is actually destroyed in the lake of fire in the book of Revelation. A lot of people don’t know this. Hell is cast into the lake of fire. The devil and Satan and the false prophet and the Antichrist are all destroyed. And every nature that’s not written in the book. Now here’s a question for you. What is the lake of fire? Because hell and the lake of fire are two separate things.
Sure. The word lake in Greek means haven. So it would be like an inlet or a haven or a place where you find your ship docks. Okay. For example, hell is cast and destroyed in the lake of fire. And yet today everyone will say that hell is endless. Do you know who made his bed in hell? Tell me how he hell. David. Okay. He said part of that is. Let me just. Let me just. Because I. Look, I wish we had three hours talking this subject because I believe Jesus is the greater David. And I believe that Jesus spent three days a night in hell.
Like it was typified through Jonah. Jonah. Three nights. Three days. Three nights in the. In the. In the belly of the whale. But. Oh, yeah, the great fish. Yep. Yeah. And so part of me thinks that the worst part about hell is not the flames. It’s not that part. It’s eternal separation from God. I think the real question is, are our people eternally separated from God? I think that’s an interesting question. Okay, so I will say it is an impossibility because everything has its existence in God. That’s why when David said. When he said that if I make my bed in hell, you’re there.
Now, there’s a traditional view, which is hell is the absence of God, which is. Goes directly. It’s contradictory to scripture because everything has Its existence. As you said, Jonah prayed from the belly of hell. It wasn’t endless. He got out of three days. It’s like a birthing hell. I’ve learned it’s also called Sheol Tartarus, the place of the dead. It’s really the grave. In Adam, all men die. And you were right. Jesus went there. He went to release the captives in Noah’s day. Okay, So I look at it like Christ is coming to release the captives today, here.
And a lot of people are thinking that they’re going to be saved from some future endless torture. And yet hell has an end. Well, you know, one of the things people don’t realize. And again, some of these questions, and I love this. We really. We have to do an episode two or three on this. I think we should. Yeah, we. Yeah. Yeah. So part of the reality is we have to understand what is the gospel. And. And. And again, everything comes down as, you know, the person and work of Jesus Christ and the attributes of God.
So what does God’s wrath do? Well, how does it. Like there’s the God of holiness, God of wrath. Sin has to be punished. And so it. Duke, if people are not eternally separated from the God that loves them, that died for them, that raised the dead for them, then the question for me, I was thinking about this for our discussion is then why do we have to go preach the gospel? If again, like right now, the Bible says that if you’re not in Christ, you’re an enemy of God. Right now. Yeah, a lot of them. I’m sure there’s a lot of them.
Yeah. That’s why we would preach the gospel. Yeah. And so. But like, if people aren’t eternally separated from God, then. Then why do we give altar calls and all these things, except for an experience, eternity starts the moment you follow Christ. You know, eternal life is not when you die. You know, it’s. Yeah. What’s interesting is, you know, there’s that passage that says that we are. We are before the foundation of the world. I knew you were crucified in Christ. There are all these beautiful passages about how, you know, even before we were here, by. By grace, we are saved through faith, you know, not because of us.
You know, not because of us. So. No. What now, the reason why I’m bringing this up is I’m going to ask you a question. What if the lake of fire is because who comes to baptize with fire? Yeah. And so obviously Jesus. Obviously, Jesus came to baptize with fire. Okay. And that’s It. That’s a. A passage is rarely interpreted by both the character. The cessationist. Non Cessationist campus. But I believe he comes to baptize the fire of the spirit of God. But some people believe that is purification. Purification. Now what if the fight the fire is because your word, O Lord, is truth, you know to be saved.
We’re set free from the truth. The truth shall set you free. The devil’s the father of all lies. So if he’s the father of all lies and there’s never been any truth in him, anything that’s, you know, comes out of many demon would be a lie, which then we would then believe, which would then drag us down to a place of hell, which is actually death. Because that word hell means grave. But religion is twisted it into. Do you also know that the, the idea of endless torture was. It’s not, it’s not a Hebrew thing. It was.
No. The idea of even heaven and hell, nirvana and all that, that’s not just strictly to the Christian faith. There is multiple faiths that have a belief system that, that if you’re, you know, again, there’s a place of joy and blessing, there’s a place of that. So it’s not restricted to Christianity. So I would agree on that. But I mean, again, there’s, you know, that the, you know, Jews don’t believe. We’ll say, we’ll say, especially the Orthodox or Hebrews, that there was never an end. There was never a place where you would go burn and, you know, endlessly, it just, it, it never, it never happened.
So, so. And God, it doesn’t change. So if God doesn’t change. So you would, you would see that this would be something completely accepted and embraced, but it isn’t. So, you know, the God of the Hebrews then would be a different God of, of the Christians now I would put forward that hell is. There is a hell. Okay, I’m going to tell you my view of hell because I think that it is. I think hell is, you know, and enlarges daily. Right. Because the more people that are, you know, far from the truth of God, they, they end up suffering.
Because in hell there’s weeping and there’s gnashing of teeth. Well, Jesus did say narrow is the way and broad is the path. So I do agree with that. Sure. Yeah. And I would also say that, you know, maybe the idea of, of salvation isn’t something that, you know, once you say some magic words, that’s it. It’s like it’s a process Because Christ said, you know, those who pick up the cross and follow me are mine. So it’s like we have to pick, like Simeon means to hear. We have to pick up where Christ left off and, and move on.
You said something that’s actually really good. I don’t want to go away from it because you on it is there is no such thing as saying a magic prayer to become a Christian. We’ve kind of adopted a, a door to door salesman approach to. Good. I agree, I agree. And that’s not the gospel. I mean, I, I always say this all the time. In our, at least in our church, you don’t go to heaven if you don’t want God. Where is heaven? Heaven is with Jesus Christ. I believe there’s a new heaven, new earth that’s going to look like the earth that we are on now, that we will rule and reign on.
And a lot of what we experience now, we will experience that the new Jerusalem is a place on the new heaven and the new earth. Jesus said, he said that the kingdom of heaven is within us. Sure. Okay. And when he spoke, he said, the kingdom of heaven has come upon you. Yeah. Because he was the kingdom of heaven. So Jesus is. Yeah, yeah, right. And the kingdom of heaven now would be in us because Christ then used the hope of glory. So, so when he said, I go to my father’s house to prepare a place for you in, in traditional Christian terms, everybody thinks that that’s somehow far away, a place called heaven.
You see, what I’m getting at is that there are these views that don’t really jive with what, you know, I’ve come to understand of scripture. I understand that Jesus said, then where you are, there I will be. Well, where is that? Well, I’m the temple of God. Right. So where you are, there I’ll be. I’m going to prepare a place for you. Well, who’s Christ preparing? I’m preparing you. That’s why Paul said, until Christ be formed in you. Do you think there’s a possibility that our loving God would give up on someone? Here’s a better question.
How many times should we forgive someone if they repent? Should there ever be an end? There should never be an end. Will there ever be an end with God? I believe, again, my perception is when you die, okay. Because the Bible says to be absent from the body, to be present with the Lord. With the Lord. But I also, I’ve always believed, and I love the challenging conversation here, that, that takes the whole hell idea out, by the way. Right. Because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There is. You have to ask yourself who he was saying that to though.
Right. And so that. That context is really important. Who you were speaking that too. But I do believe that, you know, when you. He’ll always forgive, but there comes a moment when he won’t. He. There comes a moment when he can’t. Like he won’t. Because I thought. Yeah, I know. It’s. It’s like these are the things that every Christian should question. Right. And then put them back together. Because to me, we just assume things that we never have ever built our life upon. And then people who talk with us, we end up losing everything because we.
Like I didn’t. I never thought about that. So, I mean, you know, if. If worshiping a God that if you don’t do it the way a certain church tells you to do it will then torture you endlessly, you had your chance. And then also say, you must always forgive makes that God a little bit of a hypocrite in my eyes. Sure. That being said, what does scripture say about God? Is God’s arm slack that it cannot save? Correct. Yeah. First Timothy, chapter two, verse four. God will not may will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and the stature of the perfect man will.
That is his will. What God wills, no one can stop. Out of everyone that God gave the Son to save, he says, I lost not one, but the Son of perdition who’s the Son. But I believe that. And again, this would be fun because I’m glad you brought that up to haven’t considered that passage. Cool. But as I think about it, I could be wrong because I go back to context, because you got to study context. My question to myself is, and I’ll set it after we’re done, is, was he speaking to the disciples, the actual ones he called to follow him? And is that that promise explicitly to the 12 of which he lost one? Well, I mean, there’s, there’s.
Listen, there’s a lot. I have, like. I mean, I have pages of words, you know, I mean like God desires all to come to knowledge of the truth. Salvation of all is testified. And Jesus came to save, to save all. John 12. God works all after the counsel of his will. Jesus is the Savior of the world. Jesus is the savior of the world. Again, I mean, it goes on and on. What do you believe about like the typology of no where if you weren’t on the boat, you Weren’t saved. Well, the ark. Yeah. The ark is a picture of Christ.
Right. And the ark is also right. So if you don’t build that ark. Yeah. You’re. You’re not going to do well, because that, you know what, there’s the door that’s shut. But does that mean that then you’re sent off to a place of everlasting torture? Hard to reconcile some things about God because we always would say to ourselves, why would a God of love let certain current events in the world? Like the question people ask is like the California fires, a judgment of God. My answer would be no. You know, that the. Or maybe, maybe not enough people.
I mean, like if he works all things together for the good of those that love him. And you know, the scriptures do say every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. Right. That. That Jesus is Lord. The next line, people forget. Do you know what the next line is? Most people think it’s too late, though. Too late. I don’t. I don’t. Tell it to me. To the glory of God. Yes. Yeah. Now, is God’s creation finished in victory or is it finished in defeat? It’s ultimately finished in victory. But what about the thought Platonizes, when he says to.
Many will say on that day, lord, Lord. And he’ll say, depart from me. Depart from me. Yeah. I never knew you depart from me. Is that departure into eternal torment or torment like. Well, right now, Here’s a good one. Let me. This one’s a good one because I bet you don’t even know this. Do you know, because we get that word eternal torment, and we think it means eternal torture. The word torment is a Greek word, Basanios, I think. And what it means is to test the purity of precious metals. So you would take this really harsh stone, you take gold, and you’d strike it, and you’d strike it to find out how pure that metal was.
Smoke of their torment. Also in chemistry. You torment chemistry. And that’s what happens if every name that’s not written in the book of life is going to be cast where? Into the lake of fire. What does fire do? It purifies. Don’t. Do you think that it’s possible that God could set things up so that it’s not about what I did, but if I believe in a God that would torture you endlessly for not doing as I say, does that now. Now give me license to look at others and say they’re not saved. And I’m going to burn Daystar down.
Yeah. None. None of Us have the right to even to say someone’s saved or not saved because we don’t know someone’s heart. Well, who’s saved ultimately, how many people are. Like, I believe the people that are saved are the people that, I mean, that have chosen to follow Jesus Christ, that understand that the death, the burial, the resurrection of Jesus, that’s who I believe are those that are ultimately born again. But these are good questions because, you know, I look at. I mean, there’s so much in the world of people that I look at, qualities in people.
Right. They’re very Christian and Christ like. And they don’t say the things that we would like the words we want them to say. Like, let me use Donald Trump, for example. Okay. Donald Trump says all the right things, the wrong, the wrong way. Yeah. You know, you’ll be praying for. We’re going to be praying, by the way, for this 100%. It’s these, this is crazy town right now. I mean, I believe God’s spirit to save our country. And I. And again, man, I wish we had more time because, hey, listen, you know, let me ask you this.
Yeah. If, if, if a child asks a father for bread, is he going to give him a stone? No. Okay. If a child asks, you know, for give me an egg, are you going to give me a scorpion? Right now we’re, we’re wicked. Yeah. And if we know how to take care of our children, how much better does God know? 100 do you think? And this is a question, and I hope that this provokes a lot of people because I do believe that there is a hell, and I do believe people are trapped in it. I also believe that we have the power over the gates because what did, what did.
What did. Jesus said? He said, you know, Satan is going to sift you like wheat. What is that? We’re going to find, get the seed out and it’s going to be dependent on. You’re going to be thrown in the fire. What does the fire do? It purifies Christ comes his mouth. There’s a. Is a sort of fire. Fire. The witnesses of God. It’s fire. It’s truth, a purifying word. People believe that our God, a God of love, who loves us, who’s enduring and patient, who cannot fail, Will, if you don’t say these magic words and believe these certain things, you’re done.
I believe that God has got it set up. It’s going to be. In the end, it’s going to be all good. And the only way to come to get out of hell is to come to Christ. Yeah. And ultimately, every knee bows. I don’t know how it works, but that’s the beauty of theology, because people think it’s black and white. And actually, I try to say it’s learn to live in the tension. Like, one of the things I learned in seminary was we got to learn to live in attention where we’re pulled, different ways we go.
There’s tension here, and I think it’s. I mean, I think it’s arrogant to pretend that we have it all. Right. That’s why you have eight children, right? I have eight kids, yep. Would you ever give up on any of them? Never. Never? Never. I have. I have some that aren’t as close to God as I wish they were. And you like me being meatballs. Yes. If we wouldn’t give up on our children, why do you think God would? That’s a great question. But the question is, ultimately, are they a child of God or. I think scripture does talk about being child of your father, the devil.
Yeah. And he used to say that a lot with the religious types. The devil’s a liar. But some of the most judgmental people in the world are the religious people. I mean, we went out of hours a day for that. And I really think a lot of people think they know Christ. Don’t know Christ. I think there’s a lot less judgment outside the church than inside the church. There’s a lot more grace and mercy for people who don’t. From people who don’t know Jesus. The people who say. Say keyword. No. Jesus. If you know God, if you know him, you can’t be doing some things people are doing online to rip other people’s lives apart.
You can’t do this. Yeah. I mean, I. I really would like to see better. And, you know, we. We all. It all starts with us to begin with. And. And I do. I. I want to see everybody set free from hell. We’re supposed to have power over the gates. I don’t want people to live in a daily hell like some people realize. That’s the difference. Like, there are. People are putting hell outside of them in the future after you die. But you got that. You wrote that check. You know you did the right thing, even if you mess up.
No, see, I believe that God wants you to continue to move on in repentance and try to be better. But it’s. It’s like I want to see people free from the actual hell. Yeah. The one that Jonah prayed for, from the one that you know, David cried out from the one that is all over Scripture, but yet they used to sell indulgences. This is where it came from. People don’t even know the history of it. But I think that if people change the idea of what God is like, a God of love that’s infinitely more powerful.
And, like, you wouldn’t give up on your children, but yet we’re sold this story that God’s gonna somehow give up on us and then torture us endlessly. It’s that reconciliation of the love of God, the holiness of God, the wrath of God, the patience of God, the mercy of God. Yeah, he gives that one penny. You reap what you sow. I believe that. I believe that if you sow something, you’re going to reap it. That’s just the way it is. When I’ve done funerals for people as a pastor and people ask me, is my loved one in heaven or hell? I never preach someone into heaven.
I never preach someone in hell. I would never do that in a funeral. But I will say to everybody, that person’s in the hands of a just God. And you know what? I will agree with this. And, Dr. Malachi, I’m so grateful that you did this with me. It was a tough day today, too. And. And I’m really so happy that you came on. Everybody, please go into the description of the video, click on the link, follow him, and, you know, make sure you send me all the links, by the way, to follow him on X if you’re on YouTube.
Are you on YouTube? I am on YouTube. I’m building out YouTube this year, Bill. If Tick Tock survives the next couple days, I’m on Tick Tock and other places. Okay, so we’re gonna put. We’re gonna put your X account. We’re gonna encourage everybody to go there because I’ll tell you what, he’s the first. And I don’t know how many years I’ve invited so many like, people to come on just to have a conversation. And look, we’re both alive, right? Yes. I love each and every one of you. Thank you very much. God bless you all. Thank you very much, Dr.
Malachi, and we’ll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye. Hey, thanks a lot. You’re awesome. As a child, I knew no sin until I was taught by elders that I was bad to begin. When I was a child, I was not ashamed or easily tamed. I was alive. Alive and free. That is, of course, until religion and society got a hold of me and I was tricked into eating the fruit of that cursed tree? Dead in my trespass, I was told? The miserable sinner bound for hell is the lot, I was told? God, why have you forsaken me? I cried? But religion lied? I just went along for the ride? Waiting for some savior to return so I wouldn’t have to burn or have to hide? But my salvation had never left or forsaken me.
It was always inside. I simply allowed the truth of who I was to be crucified. But it wasn’t long before that truth of who I was once again began to rise? And I put away challenge? Thinking for a greater prize? I’m a say life is magical and wonderful? Once the truth of who you are is once again realized? Realized? Life, real life.
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