Summary
➡ The text discusses the idea that words and language can be alive and influential, drawing on the works of authors like HP Lovecraft and William S. Burroughs. It also explores the concept of gaining knowledge from dreams or visions, as well as the potential dangers of delving too deeply into the mysteries of existence. The text references the work of Carl Jung and his exploration of the human psyche, suggesting that his work was both a psychological and spiritual journey. Finally, it touches on the idea that certain words or knowledge could potentially ‘destroy’ a person, either physically or metaphorically.
➡ This text talks about the origins of alchemy, suggesting it has divine roots and was passed down from ancient beings called ‘watchers’ to humans. It discusses the idea that learning these secrets can lead to a higher state of being, similar to becoming a divine entity. The text also mentions the Book of Enoch, which contains related stories and theories. Finally, it ends with a discussion about how different cultures and religions might influence these ideas and experiences.
➡ The text discusses various topics, including the symbolism in media and its potential influence on people. It suggests that symbols from esoteric traditions are often used in products and media to create a sense of depth and history. The text also explores the idea that these symbols might not be speaking to us directly, but to our subconscious. Finally, it questions whether the subconscious and the ego are the same or different, depending on different psychological theories.
➡ The text discusses the concept of the ego and the unconscious mind, as defined by psychologists Jung and Freud. The ego is everything that refers to ‘I’ – our thoughts, behaviors, and motivations that we’re aware of. The unconscious mind is like an iceberg under the water, containing things we’re not aware of but influence our lives. The text also talks about the importance of understanding and engaging with our unconscious mind to grow as individuals.
➡ The text also mentions a comic called ‘Chosen One’ and encourages readers to buy a copy.
➡ The author shares personal experiences and thoughts about knowledge, learning, and the impossibility of knowing everything.
➡ The text ends with a discussion on synchronicities, alchemy, and analytical psychology, suggesting that our interactions with archetypes and symbols can influence our understanding of ourselves and the world.
➡ The text discusses the mental breakdown of Carl Jung, a famous psychologist, around 1912-1913 due to a stressful split with his mentor, Sigmund Freud. This led Jung to explore his inner world and unconscious mind, where he experienced vivid visions and engaged with imaginary figures. He used these experiences to better understand and help his patients. Later, he discovered gnosticism and alchemy, which he saw as early forms of psychology focused on self-growth, and incorporated these into his work.
➡ This text talks about the experiences of consciousness, imagination, and fear, especially in situations like sensory deprivation tanks. It discusses the idea that schizophrenics might not be “crazy,” but instead might see reality more clearly than others. The text also explores the theories of Carl Jung, who believed that schizophrenics might not have the same mental filters as others, causing them to experience visions from their unconscious mind. Lastly, it mentions the use of substances like tobacco and hallucinogens in relation to consciousness and dreaming.
➡ In analytical psychology, keeping a dream journal is important because it helps you understand your unconscious mind. Dreams can show patterns that reveal your mental growth. Symbols in dreams can have different meanings for different people. For example, a raven might symbolize death for one person, but for another, it could be a spirit animal. This is because symbols are influenced by our personal experiences. The text also discusses Carl Jung’s experiences with the paranormal and his writings in the Red Book. Jung believed that he interacted with spirits and entities in different states of consciousness. He wrote the Seven Sermons to the Dead, a complex text with multiple interpretations, during a time when he felt his house was filled with spirits. After he finished writing, the strange aura in his house disappeared. The text also mentions Jung’s Bollingen Tower, which he built as a physical representation of his self-growth. The concept of towers and labyrinths is discussed, suggesting they might have deeper, esoteric meanings.
➡ This text discusses the idea of physical challenges, like climbing stairs, as a metaphor for spiritual journeys. It talks about the difference between a labyrinth and a maze, with a labyrinth symbolizing a spiritual journey back to the divine source. The text also explores the concept of Abraxas, a figure in Gnosticism, as a representation of what one can become through self-discovery and overcoming personal challenges. Lastly, it delves into the idea of Gnostic cosmology, where consciousness reproduces a counterpart, and the concept of Abraxas as a God above all other gods.
➡ The text discusses the concept of divine creation and the idea that everything we perceive is an emanation from a divine source. It also explores the work of Robert Flood, a historical figure known for his unique cosmology, and his interpretation of the Sephiroth, a concept from the Jewish Kabbalah. The text further delves into the power of language, suggesting that divine letters hold a special power and can reflect the divine essence. Lastly, it touches on the Gnostics’ belief in achieving spiritual enlightenment or ‘gnosis’ through personal interaction with divine texts.
➡ This text discusses the idea that language can sometimes limit our ability to express ourselves fully. It also explores the concept of individual experiences and interactions with mysteries as a way for humanity to progress. The text further delves into the idea of alchemy, gnosticism, and analytical psychology as paths to personal enlightenment. Lastly, it touches on the phenomenon of synchronicities, suggesting they might be signs of being on the right path or moments of deep connection with reality.
Transcript
Hello and welcome to the Juana Juan podcast. If you’re enjoying the show, consider signing up for the Patreon. There you get ad free content, early access, exclusive episodes, and monthly supporter hangouts. You can find it@patreon. com slash the Juan on Juan podcast if you don’t like the subscription based models, there are other ways of supporting the show that are linked in the description in thank you for tuning in and enjoy this episode.
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Available now from Paranoid American. Get your copy@tjojp. com or paranoidamerican. com today, welcome to the one on one podcast with your host, Juan Ayala. So in the documents and anecdotes of Jung’s patients, one of them very clearly at least admits that he was encouraging them to create what effectively would be their own red books. He thought that this was the way to go, to engage with your unconscious in a serious and imaginative way, where that process becomes this very beautiful like interaction, really, of self growth.
I mean, as an artist, you’re constantly one engaging with your unconscious and bringing forth things that it offers you and then things that you’re kind of intuiting. There are decisions that you make that are just natural, logical steps. A lot of those other decisions are made intuitively. And so what is intuition? It’s basically an inclination from your unconscious to go a certain direction. Welcome back to another episode of the Juan Juan podcast.
Make sure to follow show on social media at the Juanunjuanpodcast tjojp. com for those that want more of the show, patreon. com slash the juanunjuanpodcast. Make sure to leave a comment like thumbs up whatever. Subscribe. Five star review wherever you’re listening. If you’re catching this on YouTube, the RSS feed, wherever you may be, make sure to also, you can call in. The number is 407-476-4606 407-476-4606 let us know what you thought of this episode.
Let me know what you think of the show. Leave, whatever, anything. And so today we have MJ Dorian joining us, and I’m very excited for this episode because I’ve had a synchronistic packed day yesterday, MJ, where it was kind of weird. I want to share those synchronicities with you, but before we get started, can you plug where people can find your work? You’ve got a great podcast, and I just want to tell you, the production is excellent, you’ve got a great voice, and I love the setup that you got going.
So, yeah, great job. Keep up the good work. Where can people find you? I’m going to pull up your website here real quick. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that very much. I’ve been enjoying listening to your show lately, and it’s an honor to be here. So generally, my show, you could find it. Easiest way to go is go to Spotify and search creative codex. That’s C-O-D-E-X creative Codex.
Otherwise, for social media stuff, I’m also on Instagram, the app formerly known as Twitter, and all that stuff under my name, MJ. Dorian. Dorian. And we recently completed a four part series about Jung and Alchemy on the show. And I imagine your listeners will very much enjoy that. So that’s on creative codex. So for those that don’t know you, MJ, this is the first time you come on my show, and it’s probably not going to be the last time.
Can you tell us a little bit about what got you started into? Because I know you don’t just focus on young, although you are much more well versed than I am on young. And he’s one of those kind of guys where you could quite literally spend hours and hours on just singular parts. Right. If you break his work down, like the red book, which is really interesting to me, we’re going to be talking about that today.
But he’s one of those guys that I still don’t know where I stand with him if he was. And I made a joke yesterday talking to a friend and professor Longo, people know him on the show, and we were talking about James Joyce, and I’m going to be doing an in person episode with him soon. I was, you know, what do you want to talk about? And he’s like, oh, check out know his.
His Finnegan’s wake book and all this stuff. It’s real esoteric. And I was like, is it Carl Jung’s schizo? Or is it Philip K. Dick’s schizo? He’s like, well, more of a k. Dick, but. And it’s like, I don’t know where to stand with him because was he a genius? Which we have analytical psychology because of him. So there was something to the method of his madness, right? Or was he crazy? Was he insane? Because it seems like science or seance, whatever you want to call it, focuses on these figures in history.
They focus on their more academic side. Like, let’s say, for example, Newton. Newton was highly steeped into the. Right. He was writing about alchemy. He was drawing up templates and drawings of Solomon’s temple, right? So this is a guy who was steeped into the occult, questioning the existence of God. And then here we are on the flip side, a young that was also highly, highly into the occult, but yet there’s people who go to college and take years and years of courses on jungian psychology, so you don’t have to answer that question.
But before we get into all that, because, again, I got a whole bunch of questions for you, and I’m really excited for tonight’s episode. I’m happy for it. Yeah. How’d you get started in this specifically? Jung or the podcast, whichever you want. All right, cool. We’ll do the podcast first. So, creative Codex has been five years now. We’re just past that mark. And it started honestly when I was a teenager.
I’m an art kid myself. I started with music and visual art, and right from the get go, when I was smart enough to think about these matters, when I was a teenager, I was obsessed about the idea of, what is creative genius? Why do some people become these icons? How does someone become prince? How does someone become Leonardo da Vinci? How do any of these people reach that height where they surpass everyone else in their field? And they also become important historically to human civilization? What are they doing differently in their brain? And I’ve always been obsessed with this topic.
And so throughout those years until now, I’ve always been reading about all these figures, reading their biographies, reading their journals, and it was basically a natural segue into, well, I have all of this knowledge already about these guys and women as well, obviously, and I still want to learn more about them. How about maybe I’ll go into this new art form, which is podcasting still relatively. Still relatively young in the grand scheme of things.
And so I pursued that into creative codex, and that’s how that came about. And then in terms of Dr. Carl Jung’s stuff, at the same time. And I feel like this is true for a lot of people who are artists. You have this inclination to be curious about esoteric things and about spiritual matters. And I think this partially due to this idea that as an artist in any kind of field, you’re working with elements that are intangible.
If you’re a poet, you’re working with words and rhythms and the melody of words. If you’re a painter or a visual artist, you feel like you’re generating or channeling down these ideas from God knows where, and then they come into form as these works of art. If you’re a musician, it’s even worse, which is what I was. You’re really working with intangible stuff, just sound waves and creating patterns out of sound.
And so because of that, I feel like it’s a very natural inclination for artists to also be curious about things that are esoteric, about things that are occult, things that are spiritual. And as I had those curiosities, every once in a while, the name would drop of Carl Jung this, Carl Jung that, the red book this, archetypes this, archetypes that. And that’s what drew me in, honestly, is the curiosity like, all right, well, what’s this guy about? And once you start pulling on that thread and walking into those hallways that he’s established of his works, there’s no getting out of there.
You’re just going to be there for one of the. Because I wonder about that, too. Are our thoughts our own? You have people like HP Lovecraft that I talk about a lot. You have guys like William S. Burroughs that were using writing as a sort of divinatory method in some sort of way, and something that I’ve termed grammatical entities, where the word is alive, right? I mean, that’s the whole thing with the tetragrammaton and yahe Vadhe.
And synchronistically enough, I had another synchronicity before we jumped on. I’m translating some Robert Flood work on his, some Robert Flood work, and on some deep research that I’m doing. And of course, he’s talking about the origins of the word and how it’s alive. And that plays into my research with Terrence McKenna, Philip K. Dick, where, and it links to Carl Jung with the Nagamati and dead sea Scrolls, where the logos is alive and it’s almost like the way that Philip K.
Dick puts it, a virus that infects. And the gnostics were through alchemy. And the alchemist, too, the hermeneticists were at this point where they were experimenting with alchemy not only as a sort of weird philosophical thing, practical thing, where you have spaghetix, but also to push forward the evolution of man. They were at this border, this cusp of evolutionary, this place in evolution where they were able to transcend.
And it’s about the dilation of time. It’s about transcending time itself. Right. And one of the things that really draws me into young, especially, is looking within, which I know you have experience with that, but can you extract actual usable knowledge from these other places that he was looking into? Right. Because it seems very cryptic. And one of the things that stood out to me was, and I wrote this quote down, I forgot which of your podcasts it was.
I think it was on the seven sermons of the dead and where he says, let me find it here. Something along the lines of, why does nature give birth to things it wants to kill? And he’s talking to the little Gremlin. He’s talking to the little gnomes, right? And it makes me think of, like, the DMT elves type of thing McKenna talked about. And also Seymour, I forgot his last name.
The guy that invented the supercomputer, he would was. Back then, there was a tunneling hobby where he would dig tunnels, and whenever he was stuck on a problem, he would go into these tunnels and start digging. And he even writes that these little elves would show up and give him the answers to his problems. And I’ve had this happen to me, not in the form of little elves, but in the form of, I’ll have a dream.
And in my dream, I’ll be presented with a solution. And not just like a solution of, hey, two plus two equals four, but a solution in some weird, cryptic way where when you wake up, you go, damn, now I know what I got to do. And it’s like you connect the dots and you do what you need to do. But it came in this. I’ve had that happen to me once or twice before in my life.
Sure. And so do you believe, because a lot of the things that he’s interacting, he’s talking to the devil, he’s talking to these little elves that are telling him to essentially destroy himself with the right side of the brain, left side of the brain, and all this stuff with the sword. Do you think that you can extract actual, usable knowledge from these places that young went to. And then to follow that question up, ten days after writing the last bit of the sermons to the dead, I believe is the last book that he wrote, he died.
Do you think that he achieved the magnum opus? Because one thing that’s always stood out to me is there is a specific string of words for every human being that will destroy you. And I don’t know if destroy means maybe perhaps killing you off physically, biologically, or the way I like to see. It’s like you dissolve out of existence. You connect the dots that you weren’t supposed to connect, and you fizzle out of existence.
I mean, think of all these ancient civilizations that just got up and disappeared, right? The Mayans, Mohenjo dar, all these places. Was that part of it where they were interacting with things that they maybe weren’t supposed to be interacting with? Because look at Nietzsche. He went insane young, kind of sort of went know, looking into the darkest crevices of reality itself. He went insane on purpose, you could say, and found his way back so that he could guide his patients and guide the rest of humanity in what that process might look like.
That’s what the red book is, is basically somebody choosing to engage with very chaotic, unconscious content, which is something that somebody who’s suffering from, like a psychosis might do. They might be wrestling with characters inside of themselves that feel as real as everything in their external world. But in the process, by doing it in this willful and conscious way, the way that Jung did it, you end up learning a tremendous deal about yourself, about your weaknesses, about your strengths.
And also, if you’re doing it for the aim of growing as an individual and spiritually as well, then it’s an incredible experience. But to riff off of some of the things you mentioned. So one thing you mentioned about seven sermons to the dead, he wrote that much earlier than when he did finally pass. What may have been gotten confused there. There was a work he finished shortly after he passed, which was most likely in reference to man and his symbols.
Okay, that was the last book, and that was a joint effort between him and his colleagues. So that’s most likely what, maybe the wires got crossed, someone mentioned there. But seven sermons to the dead. He wrote that early on. He wrote that that probably would have been in the 1920s, and he lived for a number of decades after that. And the reason we know this is because this was a very unique work in that he didn’t credit himself as the author.
He credited this gnostic saint, or gnostic, prophet named Basilides as the author. And he was so proud of this work that he had done that felt like a channeled work, that he shared it with friends. It’s like one of these few little things that he printed from that red book experience he had, and he would give it to certain colleagues and be like, hey, check this out. Isn’t this crazy? In a way? So we know that there’s a definite timeline of when that happened.
And then in regards to some of these other things you’re talking about, so many neurons firing. Sorry. No, it’s all good. It’s all good. It’s fun. So the idea with Jung and whether the practicality of the things he’s engaging with, you can look at something like the red book. And some people will call it a psychological work. It’s an exploration of somebody’s deeper layers of their psychology, of their psyche.
And then some people will say, this is a purely spiritual work. This is something that you’d run into if you were reading an islamic mystic text or somebody who practices kabbalah, and they’re exploring their inner realms and stuff. But really, it’s both. Jung is a psychologist, and he’s exploring elements that are within the fabric of spirituality and spiritual experience. And I don’t think even he would narrow it down to say, it’s only psychology or it’s only spiritual, because at the beginning, at the outset of that journey in the book, he’s looking for his soul.
It’s very specific, it’s very deliberate language. He’s looking for his soul. He finds his soul and he starts a dialogue with it. The rest after that is a combination of spirituality and psychology. Yeah. Like I said, looking into the inner. And I know you had tried, you explained your vision, which was really bizarre, too. And it’s almost like when he’s being told to extract the liver of the boy, and the liver is interesting because the liver is.
Right. The liver. It’s almost where they had pierced Jesus on the side, right? Like that area there, is that where the liver is? Let me make sure that the liver might be lower anyway. I don’t know if it was Jesus being pierced in the liver, but he was pierced in the lower ribs in that area. Because I’ve heard the liver is essentially. They call it the liver because it keeps you alive.
So the liver, Jesus. Traditionally, the organs, various organs have associations. I believe I’ve heard the liver referred to as the seat of the soul. Yes. In more ancient traditions. Let me see here. Is it the liver? Yeah. And there was a specific vision he engaged with just to give context to listeners, where Salome, this female figure he’s in dialogue with, instructs him to extract or cut out the liver from this dead child.
Basically. Yeah. Which is. Right. It’s one of the darker visions in the book, which Salome is also an interesting character. And that links to John the Baptist. But yeah. So the sidework kind of sort of near the liver. Right. And then also, I think, within the ribs. Okay. I thought it was lower. Prometheus is also condemned to having his liver eaten nonstop as a curse. Totally. That was his whole thing by the.
It would regenerate every single. All right, so the liver. Right. An interesting piece, an interesting organ. You have Galen thought as well, where they believe that certain parts of the body held certain aspects that you’re saying were the seat of the soul. And also I’m just thinking because this involves the gnostics as well, which is what I first got into when I started podcasting, it was a lot of gnosticism.
And the reason Gnosis is an interesting concept because there is nothing written about it. It’s one of those mysteries where it’s like, what was gnosis? What’s whatever sacred to you? And I’m just thinking about. Right. We’re talking about young looking into his innermost parts of his psyche or soul, whatever he was looking for. And almost like, what if that’s what the gnostics were up to as well because they were using mandalas.
There is spells and incantations that we have of the gnostics that we don’t know what they were for, almost like a glossalia. And again, it goes back to the whole text itself being the living word in some sort of way. And what if that sucks you in? Right? What if that is like what you melt into? Because writing, I’ve always looked at, you mentioned the creativity aspect of it all.
Well, you have Michael Myers was Atlanta Fujians, where he combines alchemy, these plates with poems, where with a story with music on top of it all. So there’s something about that trinity that is, I believe, sucks people. And that’s why media is so powerful as well. That’s why video and movies are so powerful. These cinemagicians that they use this. And I want to get your opinion on this because you have a lot of people who so young really introduced the concepts of the archetypes and how at the core level of all these Disney movies and all the things that we know and love, there’s the archetypes these core concepts that resonate with us on a deeper level.
Maybe that’s ingrained into our dna. Who knows? But you have people who will argue against, and I believe this is my personal idea, and I want to get your opinion on this, that the elites, and by the elites, I know you don’t like the lizard people, but correct me if I’m Ryan, I’ve heard you. I’ve heard you reference people who dress like lizards. It’s great for Halloween. Yeah, whatever you want to dress up.
But the idea of these reptilian overlords is what I call them, if they are lizards or not. Okay. Reptilians. That they use these concepts to manipulate the psyche of humanity and of civilizations and of nations and of people as a whole. You have people who will argue against that. Like, no, the elites don’t use these symbols. This is just what they make. And this is just coincidentally falls in line with these archetypes.
The elites don’t use symbology for evil purposes and sinister things. It’s like there’s a reason why they use the symbols that they use. And, okay, a majority might be using them to be edgy, right? Because it looks cool. I like the oroboros. It’s a cool symbol. I like the eye of providence. It’s a cool symbol. I like the pyramid. It’s a cool symbol. But do you believe that they might be using these? What are your thoughts on that? Could they be using them to manipulate people in some negative sort of mkultra type of way? So it’s a great topic.
I love talking about this and thinking about this. I guess what one would see as a nuanced view of it, because you could see it, all of this is very black and white. The black and white part to me is that it’s obvious that we are being manipulated by many forces at once. We’re being manipulated by the news. Everything is so polarized now. And each polarity wants you to tune in to their version of reality.
Right? And we’re being manipulated by foreign governments that influence everything from our social media apps to things that we see at day to day. We’re being manipulated by advertisers every single day. I mean, there’s a billion dollar industry of advertisement, and what it’s dedicated to is figuring out what’s going to get you to buy this product, what’s going to get you to go into that store, and they spend billions of dollars on this.
And we’re clearly being manipulated left and right from all these factors. Now, in terms of the symbology element. At the end of the day, people will use anything they can to manipulate others from these positions of power. Let’s say I just described, without even getting into reptilians and stuff like that. If it works, they’ll use it. I don’t personally think that esoteric symbolism and occult symbolism does anything to, except for me, maybe like for me, if I see the Roboros, I’ll be like, oh, shit, what’s this? What’s going on here? What’s this new item? What’s this new product? I think for most people they’ll just see an interesting symbol and it’ll wash over them and maybe not resonate.
But you’re right, though, that occasionally you will see products, shows, movies, what have you, utilizing certain symbols that have roots in esoteric traditions. To me, the way I most often see that being used, let’s say there was a trend, and I think sometimes there is still currently in fashion, that they’ll sometimes use everything from all seeing eyes to more esoteric things and things that for anybody who’s, who’s versed in it, like you, you’d be like, what’s going on here? I think a lot of those cases are the creators of those items and shows using the symbols that have a clear amount of depth to them and history to them as a way to falsify their own depth and history and validity.
Because if you take something like an arobros, which is an ancient symbol that goes as far back as anyone can trace, and you just slap it on a t shirt, one, it looks great, always looks great. It seems to resonate, and you don’t have to do much more work than that. You’ve just put a bunch of symbols together that look like they resonate. And it’s kind of a cheap and quick way, whether you’re making a movie or making the next Nicholas cage thriller or whatever, to just throw a bunch of symbols together that you probably don’t even understand, but that feel like they resonate, they have a tangible history to them and a mystery to them.
And I feel like maybe 75% of the case is what’s going on there is people just using things they don’t understand, but that feel cool. So with that said, what if they’re not speaking to us directly? Right? Because for a person like you and I, where we talk about this, that we find this interesting because not everyone does, not a lot of people are interested in this sort of stuff.
We recognize it like, oh, that’s a symbol of the gnostic or that’s a symbol of hermetics or that’s a symbol of xyz. But you’ve also covered that a lot of the times, the decisions that we make and a lot of the things get imprinted in our. I don’t know if it was you. I think I might have been reading a book. But Philip K. Dick at least talks about how these movies talk to our subconscious, and they’re meant to be, right? The subconscious being this.
Again, this concept, almost like Corbin’s mundus imaginatus, where it’s this area that exists. And I love the way Corbin puts it, where it gushes forth from the imagination. And a lot of these things I believe, because I’ve seen it in the literature of, for example, Kenneth Grant and a lot of these occultists, where they quite literally become portals in some sort of way. And these things on the other side, whether they be ultra terrestrials, extraterrestrials, aliens, it’s an alien concept, essentially.
But these things, these entities manifest in our reality almost like a stranger things type of scenario, where it comes forth from the upside down, from the mob zone, from the universe b, into our reality, whatever our reality even is. Because the more I look into, I don’t think that I understand any of the concepts that I’ve talked about more now than I did two, three years ago. To be 100%, I’ll connect another piece of information that completely throws out whatever I understood or thought I understood about the occult or the esoteric.
So what if it’s meant for this other plane, the subconscious, which is a powerful thing. Can we connect the subconscious and the ego? Or are those two separate things? Do you know, is the ego and the subconscious the same or similar? We need to narrow it down to which school of psychology we’re talking in. So let’s say, if we’re sticking to jungian psychology, or more formally known as analytical psychology, Jung defined the ego as its latin definition, which in Latin, if you translate ego, it just means I.
Just the word I, just a reference to I. And that’s, I think, a beautiful and poetic way to narrow down what the ego is and what it means to Jung, let’s say. And also, I think, what it meant to Freud, because some of these ideas Jung built off from what Freud had already established in his research. So anything that refers to itself as I is the ego. Now, that doesn’t mean that is the way that we use it in our day to day.
He’s so egotistical. It’s not necessarily that connotation that’s where I’m saying we have to narrow it down to a certain school of thought. To Jung, the ego isn’t something you want to get rid of, to surpass and all that stuff. You need the ego. Ego is just everything that is self referential within your vision of your consciousness. So it’s your memories, it’s what you do every day. It’s your thoughts, it’s your behaviors and your motivations.
All that stuff that you are aware of is your ego. And then the unconscious, which is interchangeable with subconscious. In Jung, we just refer to it as know day to day. Some people call it subconscious. Same thing. The unconscious is all that stuff behind the curtain. And it’s famously visualized and shown in a picture where if you imagine an iceberg, and the top of the iceberg that’s about the size of, let’s say a ship, is the ego and your conscious mind.
And then when you look under the surface of the ocean, there’s an enormous body. That’s the iceberg, and that’s the unconscious. It’s like all this other stuff that you didn’t realize is there and is influencing what’s going on in your life and your conscious mind, too. So that’s the unconscious. And the two obviously have ways that they interact, and there’s ways that you can engage your relationship with your unconscious, which you could argue is kind of the whole point of analytical psychology itself is these methods of engaging a relationship with your unconscious with the intention to basically unravel a lot of the knots and complexes that are in there and become aware of them and in the process, grow as an individual and reach your full potential.
Really. Chosen one, go visit Chosen one. It’s easy to remember if you just sing along. Chosen one, go visit Chosen one. The chosen one? Yes, he is the chosen one? He’s got his own comic, and now he’s got his own song. This is the chosen one. Yes, he is a chosen one. Go buy a copy at Chosen one. Chosen one, go visit Chosen one. It’s easy to remember if you just sing along.
Chosen one, go visit Chosen one. Forgot where it was that I heard about. The dark self is able to reveal shadow. The shadow is able to reveal all the secrets to you, right? Because, I mean, that’s part of being human or humans being that faustian complex of wanting to obtain. I mean, that’s why I’m here as well, right? Reading and researching that faustian complex of wanting to learn knowledge, like all the things.
Like my son, he’s five years old. He thinks I know everything. He thinks I can fix everything. And the other day, he asked me, he’s like, do you know everything? I’m like, no. There’s no way to ever know everything. He’s like, well, why not? I go, because there’s just two. And as I’m answering, I’m just like, all these different philosophies and religions, and everything just went through. I was like, there’s just no way that you would be able to learn it.
How would you even be able to cope with yourself? Like, if you learned everything there ever was about everything. Yeah. At that point, you’d be useless. You’d be spending so much time in a room just studying with your head in the books and with the beard and stuff. Yeah, you’d be not functional in the world. So I want to share the synchronicities that I had with you, and I want to dive into the red book here.
I know I’ve hijacked the first half of the episode. I’m sorry about that. I just had so many things leading up to this episode I want to talk to you about. And so it started off with. So I’ve been binging your show these past few days, getting ready for this episode and just to prep myself on young and from the interpretation of somebody who has a lot more hours put into his work than I, and I’m just in that synchronistic mindset.
So I had a family member who had a cracked headlight, right? And they asked me, like, hey, do you think you could get this headlight for me? So I went ahead and I went to the local junkyard, right? On the way there, I was listening to your podcast. On the way back. I was listening to it, and they got a little bit more specific as I was like, well, that’s just a coincidence.
So I pull up to the junkyard, and I’m waiting in line to get checked into the junkyard. And of course, out of all the days, this was yesterday, out of all the days that I could have pulled up to the junkyard, of course I’m looking for a headlight. And that day, on a Wednesday, out of all days, it would have been weird if it was 33% off, but it was a headlight and tail.
That’d be great. Tail light special going on. So I took a picture of it. There I am, right, with my little tool bag, my little cowboy boots on. It’s kind of cold in Florida. So I got my little camo jacket on, and I’m laughing as soon as I saw, and I don’t know if there was anybody on the other side, they probably saw me laughing my ass off because I’m looking at this smiling.
Look at that weirdo. So anyways, I interacted there. We did our thing. And then on the way back where I’m listening to your podcast, and around this part where young is talking to and interacting with, I believe, was it Elijah that he interacts with some of them? Point or other, whatever. I was listening to that, and I didn’t take the whole screenshot of my phone, but it was 1236, right? That I’m listening to this.
And one of my patrons, I can’t make this shit up. Like, one of my patrons at 1236, he’s writing, isn’t Elias. Because I was talking about Elias artista, the immortal alchemist, the rosicrucian messiah. He literally comments. He goes, isn’t Elias in English, elijah? And I’m like, blown away because I go, wait. So I comment back, and I told Donnie, I said, bro, this is a synchronicity right now.
I’m going to talk about you. So shout out to Donnie for being part of the Patreon. He checks everything out. And for those that want to be a part of the Patreon, sign up patreon. com slash the one on one podcast, you’re going to be part of the synchronicities. You’re going to be part of the show. So it was super bizarre to me that what are the chances, bro, in this part of the episode, he’s talking to Elijah, one of those people that kind of renewed by fire.
Just weird, weird biblical figure as well. And that’s the Solomon part, right? Where he’s interacting with Solomon. He’s know she’s my daughter. But then also, I’m you. And it’s, what, like, are we all one? I’m you, you’re me. Like, what’s going on? So I was. There’s. There’s just no way. And I’m sure other things happened to me that I was like, but maybe I was in that mind of that train of thought where I was manifesting these things.
Because synchronicities is a weird one. And it plays into alchemy, because it was through Gerard Dorn’s work that young developed the active imagination, synchronicity aspect of it all. Because it’s like he believed that these alchemists, they were like the first self help sort of thing where they were interacting with these archetypes. Now, I have mixed feelings about that because the intention goes a long way. And I believe that these mandalas and these plates that these alchemists were drawing or had drawn, they were very matter of fact.
And it was meant to be used for their purpose at that specific point in time. So when it’s depicting this thing, it’s meant to portray this alchemical process. But then young took those symbols and then kind of sort of formed a mythology around them, essentially, is what he, again, we have, because of these ramblings of a madman, we have analytical psychology, which is through the philosophical workings of these alchemists.
We have chemistry. We have a thing that is practical, where medicines are made, where all these other things that destroy and help people, too. Right? Because chemistry can be used to make a lot of bad things, too. What are your thoughts on synchronicities and maybe tapping into what I even thought about what of these things that he was talking into, talking to in his red book reminds me of Edward Kelly and John D.
Talking to these other entities on either side. Maybe. Perhaps they were ultra terrestrials, almost sort of like these higher things. And then you have Crowley that talks about these daemons being you. No, bro, it’s you. It’s your mind. It’s everything inside here. So it’s just a weird. What are your thoughts on? Yeah, no, there’s a lot there we can pick on. So, first thing, we want to establish this idea that Jung has this mental breakdown around between 1912 to 1913.
It’s caused by a very contentious split with his mentor, Sigmund Freud. He basically, there’s so much stress involved with this because now he’s losing all of the colleagues and friends he has. Everyone stays within Freud’s circle instead. And he becomes ostracized from his community. And he even becomes labeled as a mystic in a derogatory way because of his own personal views on things. So he has this split with Freud, and it causes a very personal and professional crisis in the after effects of that, on the tail end of that, he starts to have these visions that he has no control of.
And what I would imagine probably happened is in these moments he describes, he’s riding on a train through the Swiss Alps, and he sees a river of blood. It’s a very apocalyptic, chaotic scene. I have to imagine he was probably, like, half asleep. Maybe this happens if you’re in what’s called a hypnogogic state. You might receive what feel like visions can be a scene playing out, can be imagery.
It feels like a mixture of a dream and something else. It’s not quite fully a dream yet, but they can be very vivid. So I imagine maybe that’s what would have been happening with him, because he definitely wasn’t schizophrenic by clinical terms. So anyway, through that, he then ends up engaging his inner world, engaging with his unconscious, and having these kinds of experiences where he is talking to figures that are inside of him and such.
Okay, now, all of that happens without him even being aware of gnosticism or alchemy. He’s engaging all of this himself because he thinks, and he’s worked with schizophrenics before. Those were his first clinical, in his first clinical experiences, but now he has his own practice of patients and stuff. And so he thinks, well, if I’m going to be any use to people that come to me with actual crises in their life that are experiencing anything like this, that I’ve just experienced, how am I going to be helpful to them if I don’t even know what this is? What is it? What does this mean? When somebody who is clinically completely sane, not schizophrenic, has an apocalyptic vision, and then that vision repeats multiple times over the course of a few months? What do you do with that? And so that’s why he ended up engaging these experiences himself.
And usually at night. He was still working as a clinician and as a therapist at that time. So he would do this at night. Everybody else is asleep. And it was only after the fact, about 15 years after he’s been doing this, that he’s sent a manuscript called the Secret of the golden flower. And it’s a taoist manuscript that is considered a manuscript within a tradition of inner alchemy in Taoism.
And that’s what takes him down this rabbit hole of finding alchemy, basically. And then he sees alchemy as a continuation of the thread that was started with gnosticism, which he had been studying a few years before that. So he sees gnosticism and alchemy as early forms of psychology, basically because they’re spiritual traditions, but they’re very deliberately engaging an individualized experience of self growth. So it’s dressed in all of these spiritual things, but in the process, you’re really working on developing yourself, on engaging with, obviously, your bad habits, with your complexes, and engaging with figures in your imagination.
And this is all stuff that eventually he was also developing at the same time and sees these as kind of parallels. So I just wanted to mention that because that’s important, to see the context of the narrative as it unfolded, that he discovers that gnosticism and alchemy were basically like early precursors of the kind of psychology that he’s forming. And it’s important to, because the red book came out fairly recent, 2000 and something.
2010, something like that. Let’s look it up way too recently. Yeah. It was basically locked in a vault for 50 years after Jung’s death. Let’s see here. Red Book published versus the. Yeah, October 7, 2009. Versus when it was written. It was written so close between, what, 14 and 30, 1914, because he was working on it throughout his life. Have you tried writing. And he continued working on a different.
Sorry. Have you tried writing your own red book at all? Are you working on anything like that at all? Because I know you’ve tried some of these techniques to be able to look into. We have outer space and we have inner space. Have you tried this technique? So in the documents and anecdotes of Jung’s patients of that time period, one of them very clearly, at least admits that he was encouraging them to create what effectively would be their own red books, he thought that this was the way to go, to engage with your unconscious in a serious and imaginative way, where that process becomes this very beautiful interaction, really, of self growth.
And, yeah, I’ve engaged it in various ways. I mean, as an artist, you’re constantly one engaging with your unconscious and bringing forth things that it offers you and then things that you’re kind of intuiting when you are standing before even making a painting, writing a poem, writing music, there are decisions that you make that are just natural, logical steps. If you’re working on a pop song, you know, you’ve got to basically have at least a verse, a chorus, a verse of chorus.
But then there’s thousands of other decisions, and a lot of those other decisions are made intuitively. And so what is intuition? It’s basically an inclination from your unconscious to go a certain. So as an artist, you’re always dealing with these kinds of inclinations from the unconscious. But let’s say beyond that, not to skirt the question. Yeah, I’ve engaged in a lot of what Jung would call active imagination experiences.
You basically sit in what is a form of meditation, and you start a fantasy, and that fantasy is directed inward towards something inside of you. So if you can imagine, what would it be like to take a fantasy or a daydream and turn it inside of itself? Turn it inward. So an example that Jung gives that he uses as a technique for a lot of his red book experiences is what I call the digging method.
And I don’t know if it was. Maybe you’re referring to, I think it was a mathematician that you said had been doing. So you find a place that’s familiar to you. I’ve used my parents basement in my childhood home. I’ve used a backyard. I’ve used a closet. And you just start digging just with a shovel, and you’re imagining you’re daydreaming this. And then you have your eyes closed, obviously.
You also, ideally would have a book in your lap so that you can write down what you end up seeing in the process. As you’re digging, you have to believe this with all of your might that this is what you’re actually doing. You have to hear the dirt, feel the weight of the shovel, because the more realistic it is to you, what’s about to happen will be true.
And you won’t be manipulating the vision. It’ll just be coming from an engagement with the unconscious. So you’re digging, digging, digging. Eventually something happens. Either you reach a door, you reach a treasure chest, you reach a tunnel, and then you just keep going. And in the process, you eventually engage things that you don’t expect. It can be figures, characters, scenes, items, and all of those things are spontaneous.
And so that’s why you want to write everything down, to ponder about it later. And when you engage figures, you can have conversations with them, basically. And that’s the gist of what you’re trying to do with an active imagination. Yeah. And it was the guy who created supercomputers and he actually, I guess, and that’s why I don’t think, I don’t know if he was speaking alchemically or not.
Right. Because these guys are like that. But he was quite literally digging a tunnel. And apparently it was a thing where I want to say it was the hobbies that people would just, which is really bizarre. Right. You’re digging a tunnel. That’s kind of great. I love it. It’s kind of dangerous, but I believe that. I don’t know about you, but when I’m listening to something, if doing chores around the house or the only one I can think of is like mowing the lawn and you got your headphones in and you’re listening to a podcast.
And I feel like in my experience, similar to when you write things down, where you’re more connected to the experience, I feel like with working with your hands, you’re more connected. Right. They say that doodling as you’re listening to a lecture helps you remember things now. And I don’t know if that’s a sort of way of creating your own sort of mind palace, if you will, where you’re associating certain strokes with certain pieces of information, if you will, to what you’re listening to, and that way you’re able to retain it.
But there’s something visceral, how you’re saying, the more you feel it, the deeper you’re going to go, and no pun intended, because you’re trying to go deep. And I know you explained your vision where you were going into a tunnel and then went down another tunnel and then went into the girl’s head. The further you go. Yeah, the further you go, the less control you have of what you end up seeing and interacting with.
That’s what’s really cool about it. Sorry to interrupt you. No, you’re good. And it just makes me think of whenever I’ve done the sensory deprivation tank, where I guess the vision of the imagination, the fantasies, they’re scary in the fact that are you, how you’re saying, facing your inner demons, the darkness. But I feel like when I’m in the tank, you’re just a floating head, essentially a floating piece of consciousness.
And when you start, the point of consciousness, yeah, you start to kind of, sort of manifest things within the tank with you in a really scary way. And you got to be careful where you go. You can sort of snap out of it whenever you want. But when you start to become conscious, it’s weird because when you become conscious of what you’re thinking about, that’s when it trips you out.
If you’re in a tank that’s dark and you start thinking about alligators or something else coming to get you, it’s like, oh, you can see where that can go wrong. Quick. Now take that and turn it up to 1000 with something else, something even more horrific. And it’s like, yeah, I could see where you could do some damage to yourself. And it just makes you mentioned schizophrenics, and it’s like we’ve been painted this picture that schizophrenics are crazy.
They’re wired wrong, almost like this bad stigma. But what if they’re the most sane? What if those are the people that have the most clear view of what reality is? Right? But the thing is about it goes back to what I mentioned at the beginning, where I know schizophrenics, where they’re not extracting information that they didn’t already know. But it goes back to Plato. We’re all remembering. Maybe we know everything.
We just got to remember it. Right. Because it makes me think of the vision with the little elves of young, the gnomes, where they’re telling him to pierce. Was it pierce them with the sword? Or was it Pierce’s brain or something with the sword? It’s like, do it. The kabiri? Yeah. And he’s like, well, I’m not going to do it. It’s like, well, do it. And it makes me think of Philip K.
Dick when he took the dose of the vitamins to try to synchronize his brain together to try to get both of his hemispheres. And you have the bicameral mind theory, where back then, people were more in touch with the voice of God because both sides of their brains were working in conjunction with one thought. And I felt like young was trying to kind of do that with the interaction.
What did you call the khmeri is what he called kabiri. Yeah. In the red book, these creatures appear in the lore of ancient Greece, and they’re even within folktales and such. But in terms of just a riff off of what you mentioned about this idea that maybe schizophrenics are seeing the reality in its true form. So Jung writes a little bit about things that deal with schizophrenia because he worked with it again in his first clinical experiences.
He was working in an actual hospital for a number of years as somebody who was trying to help people who were suffering from this. And you can imagine the difficulty that people have right now with these kinds of illnesses, these kinds of disorders and ailments and what that would have been like 100 years ago, how much less we knew about how to treat it or how to interact with it or how to respect somebody who has it, or what kind of stigma that there was in society for these kinds of things.
So one thing that Jung posits, one of his theories about schizophrenia, is that these are people with this specific disorder that they have, where they don’t have the kind of filters that we do on what we are experiencing from our own brain. So what Jung saw in documenting the visions of schizophrenics and such is that they seem to be getting these visions and interactions from their unconscious. Like that these things are pouring out and that they have no way of filtering it out or stopping it the way that, let’s say, for lack of a better term, regular people do.
We have all these filters we aren’t even aware of, and we can keep ourselves in these compartments, and in the process, that helps us not have to engage with these bizarre and unpleasant things in the process of, let’s say, like, turning a daydream in on itself and then going into interactions with your unconscious, you end up seeing some really strange and bizarre stuff, sometimes even just random entertaining stuff.
And you could say that this is you engaging what, let’s say somebody with schizophrenia might see out in their external world, because that filter hasn’t stopped it from emanating outward. And so I think that it’s pretty thoughtful, like a little exploration to have as to what might be happening to somebody who’s experiencing that kind of stuff. Makes me think of my first and only experience with psilocybin, where it was at the peak.
I think I tapped into something that day where it was at the peak of that thing. During 2020, at the very peak of that, when I was in that other dimension, that’s essentially what I consider this other dimension. I felt all of the panic, all of the stress, all of the anxiety of the world at that time. Now, what was interesting about that was that when I started to freak out, I kept telling myself, I went, well, if I freak out and I got to go to the hospital, then I’m going to get sick there, and it’s going to be really bad then.
So it was like this endless cycle of, like, I got to remain calm. But it’s like if I start to freak out, I’m going to have to go to the. And then I’m going to be exposed. It was this whole thing, but that’s what it kind of sort of makes. You’re saying, we do have filters. Is there any evidence that young was experimenting with hallucinogens at all? Is there anything about that? No, there’s no indication of that at all.
That doesn’t mean he didn’t at some point smoke some weed or something that may have been available to him at that time. Because he had traveled the world a number of times, he was a big fan of tobacco. He could often be found with his smoking pipe and such. But when you engage with experiences like that, when you realize that at any time, you could say, like, okay, everybody’s in bed by 10:00 p.
m. You can sit down and have these kinds of visionary, mind altering states, drugs start to be like, well, that feels like you have less control of that. I could engage something very similar without having to enter into that kind of chaos. It also was a different time period, though. For him, this was the early 19 hundreds, twenty s, thirty s. The kind of hallucinogens that are so common to us nowadays wouldn’t have really been easily accessible, except maybe know, traveling somewhere in South America to try ayahuasca or, and, and the tobacco is important because tobacco is used in a lot of religious ceremonies in a lot of ancient cultures.
And I’ve actually recently started smoking tobacco through a pipe. Right. Cool. It’s a little bit of a different experience, and I feel like the use of my tobacco late at night has aided my dreams in a little bit. I’ve been having weird dreams recently. And I remember I woke up one morning and I was like, all right, I’m not going to write this down. I’m going to remember what happened.
I’m going to remember, right. And I was doing something, and then I went back to sleep and I forgot what the dream was. Never trust yourself to remember. Never going to. Because you’re saying, like, you’re up and you’re in this kind of weird state where you’re in between the dream. Rather, you’re in this liminal area where you’re in between the dream and the waking. So it’s like, well, I don’t keep a dream journal.
I probably should, but I don’t. But again, I’m not one to really look for answers like that. I know there’s a lot comes with dream interpretation, but I feel like I have so much other stuff going on already. I was like, I’m going to really start deciphering my dreams. And sometimes I will google, like, oh, I saw such and such thing in my dream. What does that mean? But I feel like a lot of the stuff out there is generic.
No, it’s too generic. Yeah. Well, that’s the thing with, in analytical psychology, one of the things you do when you sit down with your jungian analyst is that you have to start keeping a dream journal, because in Jung’s understanding of the mind, if you’re interacting with the unconscious, if you’re trying to address your complexes, your dreams every single night are essentially a snapshot of what’s going on in your unconscious.
And as you start to trace them and you have them documented, you can see certain patterns arising over the course of a few months that show the development of your own psyche. And so when you’re in analysis, you basically spend some of that time is sharing what this dream was with the analyst. And then they help you try to figure out its meaning, because some of the symbols might be universal, they might be archetypal, you could say.
But then even with archetypal symbols, we dress them in personal associations. So a raven to me, might mean something different than a raven to you, even though a raven might be kind of a universal symbol, it might be because I’ve maybe had more experiences with ravens in my neighborhood, and maybe to me, they associate with something more personal to me, rather than something like that to somebody else, might just be a generic kind of death omen kind of symbol.
So to one person in their dream, seeing a raven might be related to a process of death and transformation, but to me, it might just be because in this case, it’s kind of like my spirit animal. I associate a lot with ravens. So these kinds of symbols, they morph to the individual consciousness that’s experiencing them, too. So we have young here experimenting and writing down of his experiences in the red book.
He has various encounters with various encounters with various entities. We have Satan in there. We have Solomon. We have all these different people and tort. And again, correct me if I’m wrong on any of this, it was the ending bits of the red book that became the seven sermons of the dead. Is that correct? And there was, like, two versions of it’s. Yeah, it’s grouped under a section called.
It’s. Yeah, it’s toward the end of the formal thing that Jung called liber novos, that we call the red book. Yeah, that’s what I could say. So this section, because this is one of the things that has really interested me with Jung, the concept of young and the paranormal. Right. That’s essentially is what it is. Like, these hauntings, I guess. And there’s the whole idea. Did he bring this upon himself by unlocking those floodgates, for a lack of a better term, of maybe looking into things that you weren’t supposed to be looking into.
Because one of the things about psychedelics, these altered states of consciousness, almost feels alien, where you’re not supposed to sort of be there. And that’s why maybe perhaps we don’t remember a lot of our dreams, because it’s this other aspect of ourselves that’s interacting with these other places. And I just think of all the stories I’ve heard about where people do ayahuasca, and they’re in these other states, and they’re looked at by these entities.
Like, there’s a little bit something different to you because you’re kind of sort of conscious, like, what are you doing here? And some of these things can be very grotesque. And the way I’ve come to understand that is they seem grotesque to us in a certain state of consciousness because we’re not at that frequency where we need to be to interact with these entities or see them so they appear horrific.
They appear very lovecraftian to us in our waking state, whatever that is. But then if we were to interact with them in another state, they would be different. Right. Almost like a young was in the correct state of. Correct state of mind when he was interacting with these things. But even then, it got kind of dark, too, where it would get sinister in some areas, right. But it was just tame enough to where you could deal with it.
So I’m just thinking about how. So we have the seminar sermons of the dead. We have these group of dead people visiting him, right? Like this haunting where they were knocking violently at the door. They were ringing. It was the context that you’re talking about was that Jung describes it in the book memories, dreams, reflections, which is kind of like his autobiography, that at that period of time, for a few days, it felt like, in his words, that his home was filled with spirits and that they’re like filled to the brim from door to door.
And that’s how he tries to describe kind of the strange aura of the household which his family was in during that time, and that a number of strange happenings occurred while that time period was going on, including a few bizarre dreams. I believe his son had a very strange dream at one point, I think so, yeah. And then I haven’t read the account in a little while. But the key thing you’re referring to is kind of at the climax of that strange feeling in the household, everyone heard a bell ring at the front door, and everyone looked, and there was no one there.
And then he went to the door, opened it, and that night he started writing seven sermons to the dead, this very biblical kind of sounding text. And he credits it not to himself. He credits it to this gnostic prophet named Basilides. And in it, it’s a dialogue between the person who’s speaking who you could say is the prophet and the dead who have come knocking at the door.
And it’s very strange text, incredibly dense esoterically. And every single line in that text could be interpreted in three different ways. It’s like he’s speaking in a metaphor within a metaphor. And it means something psychologically to him because he’s at this time still developing his own theories. So it means something psychologically, it means something spiritually, and it means something philosophically. And those three sometimes unite under one meeting, and then sometimes they’re just separate, but they exist, they coincide together.
And it’s really paradoxical in that sense. That’s why it’s definitely this kind of inspired work. And he says that after he finished writing it, the aura of the house that was inside just disappeared. Like, all the spirits just left, and they were like, okay, you did your part. See you later. Do you know which house that was? Does he say which one it was? I’m not sure. What was his family home he was living in at the time? It may have been in Zurich.
I’m not entirely sure, because I know he’s got that house with the cubicle stone outside of it. Was that his house? Oh, that might be his tower, maybe. Yes. The tower with the Bollingen tower. Yeah, that was Bolingen Tower. Wasn’t his family home. Bolingen Tower was and is a tower he built himself, wolf, because at one point in his life, during interactions, these figures inside of him, one of those figures named Philammon, becomes basically like, a guide to him through this soul journey.
And he realizes he needs to build his own tower. And so he goes about doing that, and that becomes his tower again. This thing you were talking about, bringing something into the physical realm and working with the physical and how much value that has and how we’ve kind of lost a sense of that, because in our technological world, everything is so digitized, right? It’s so, like, ephemeral, but we need that physical stuff.
Did he tell him why he needed a tower? Do you know? It’s been a little while since I read that particular account, but it definitely had to do with, again, creating something physical in the exterior world. And the process of, you can imagine the process of building something brick by brick, designing it, and then eventually knowing you’re going to inhabit that structure as an embodiment of who you are, in a sense, there’s so much value and symbolism to that.
Just even just as a process of physicalizing, creating a physical element of your self growth, I imagine that definitely was a motivation. There’s Bellingen Tower. Yeah. Because it’s always been kind of connected, the tower with the wizard or the alchemist. Almost like some sort of weird thing where we have this little homunculus. Because I’m real deep into the homunculus. I think his name was Telus force or something like that.
I forgot the little homunculus’s name. But the idea of, at least in dungeons and dragons, the reason why the wizard has a towers for a. I think they call it, like, a strategic point during a battle. It’s a higher elevation. But there’s something more esoteric about these towers, and even esoteric, I know on your logo, you have the labyrinth. And a lot of these labyrinths were under these cathedrals that you could say had towers as well.
The labyrinth was underneath of that. Right. And if you really think about the going up a tower, it’s almost like going up a labyrinth. So I wonder if there’s something to that. Almost like a meditative state of going up these flight, because we’ve always been. Whenever you see, like, a large flight of stairs, we kind of are fascinated, like, damn, that’s a lot of stairs. Let’s take the elevator instead.
How you’re saying. But the elevator is the technology that disconnects you from those stairs. Right? Yeah. No, that’s weird there. Beauty. There’s a beauty to putting yourself through physical discomfort and a challenge that basically is like a physical journey. Right. There’s, of course, like the classic, like, climbing the 10,000 steps up the mountain in Tibet to see the master and the idea of a labyrinth in these cathedrals.
And that’s the labyrinth. Let’s say one of them that I use from Chartreuse Cathedral in the logo of my show. The curious thing about a labyrinth versus a maze. There’s a difference between labyrinths and mazes. A labyrinth, you start at one point at the entrance, and the winding path you take, there’s only one path. It doesn’t have other dead ends and things that a maze does. It’s only one path, and it always leads back to the center.
And so a labyrinth is supposed to traditionally symbolize the spiritual journey, the journey of a soul back to the divine source. And there’s just so much to reflect on in there, in this idea that we shouldn’t push away the benefits of engaging something really challenging physically, because people have been doing that for tens of thousands of years. This is the way that humanity has functioned. And these things have certain hidden benefits that I think we’ve largely pushed aside because we assume that technology can replace everything.
That’s the sad aspect of our society and our reality. Now, honestly, I think that being in these frequency soups is not a good thing. I can tell when my wifi is off based on how I feel it in the air. No, really can’t be good, bro. That cannot be a good thing for you to be constantly bombarded with these waves at the end of that. One of the aspects of the sermons of the dead, the interaction with Abraxas, or the realization, I guess, of Abraxas now.
I saw a clip, a short on YouTube the other day, where they ask of young, and they ask him, do you believe in God. I don’t know if you’ve seen this clip. Oh, sure, yes. It’s very famous, a notorious clip. It’s one of the greatest failures of an interviewer in history to not ask a simple follow up question of, what do you mean, one of the greatest failures? That guy should be ashamed of himself.
So that clip. So I’m sure you’re aware of it, where he’s like, well, he kind of hesitates, like, well, I know, right? Do you believe it’s like, you know. But I’m wondering if this came before or after this interaction with Abraxas, which is something that I’ve always wondered about. And it’s almost like it’s very alchemical, because the gnostics were obviously working with alchemy as well. Hermes Trismegistus was one of their figures.
And it’s like, I’ve always wondered what abraxis means. And he kind of labels it got the God above gods type of thing. And I’m wondering if at the end of it all, if what young realized or what he found. And I know this is like super cliche, be like, oh, some people will say it’s luciferian or satanist or whatever it’s like to think that you are a God, to think that you are the God above gods.
And I wonder if did he find that we are like an Abraxas at the end of it all? What’s your interpretation of Abraxas at the end? It being this thing that he found, this essentially chimera that he found at the end of it all? I know he gives a description of it all and all this stuff, and Basilides being one of these. He was one of the first gnostics.
No, one of these people, that he was one of the originals in Alexandria. What’s your thoughts on that? Because that’s something that I’ve always wondered about of the concept of Abraxas. So there’s Abraxas, and then there’s what Abraxas means to Jung. And obviously you can’t have one without the Abraxas is this kind of figure that’s really clothed in a lot of mystery because we don’t really truly know where it originated from.
We have a lot of indications, like on coins and things, of him existing for a while. He’s definitely around in the hellenistic time period, post Jesus and stuff, in those few hundred years. And that’s where scholars kind of place him as a hellenistic figure, potentially more ancient. But we have nothing to trace him further back, so we could maybe just say for Jung, let’s say Abraxas, in the context of basilides and gnosticism, he represents a God above everything that has an influence on us in our physical reality.
So in this traditional hellenistic sense, the stars, the celestial bodies, astrological symbols, they have an influence on us, on our psychology, on who we are on the course of our life. Then there’s fate has an influence on us. Then there’s the myriad gods in the celestial sphere and demons and such that have various influence on us. In some gnostic traditions, there was a God, or not a God, sorry, a divine level, like an actual place for every day of the year.
And as a gnostic, you were supposed to work through every one of those levels, all 365, to eventually ascend to the point where you’re above their influence. And so Abraxas as a God above gods, above astrological influences. And you can see that on his shield, he has all the astrological symbols traditionally shown on his shield is this God that is a symbolic representation of what you can become if you, to Jung, fully individuate at some point, probably toward the end of your life.
So there’s this term individuation that is key in analytical psychology. Some people equate it with, like, self actualization, these kinds of terms. But there’s more to it. But the essence of it is that in the course of your life, if you engage with your complexes, with your neuroses, with everything inside of you that’s knotted up, that you have to unravel, that eventually you’ll no longer have contents in your unconscious that influence you, because the scope of how big your conscious mind is will have expanded to include everything that you are.
And by the end of your individuation, or close to the end, you’ll be very much like this figure of Abraxas, who is the God above gods, the God above all influence in the environment, in the celestial sphere and such. And I think Jung never states this, but through reading and studying him, I think that’s the value he saw in this kind of figure myself. Interesting. And would that put, you know, you’re talking about the upper eons and the lower eons, right? And that was essentially how every celestial orbit was a different dimension and every celestial body was a different demon in this gnostic cosmology.
And it’s like when he says, God above gods, is Eve higher, in your opinion? Do you think it’s higher than the God? Like the source, the emanation right. What are your thoughts? Because that can get dark real quick. Right. And that has some negative connotations in the christian sense. Right, sure. So when we’re talking about gnosticism, we’re also just thinking in terms of the hellenistic time period, which was also when hermeticism was around.
So when we take a look at something like, know the writings of Hermes Trismegistus, the corpus Hermeticum, not the cabalion, but the real stuff, the good stuff there, they talk about there. Hermes Trismegistus talks about various gods. He talks about gods that men can create, that humans can create, that. He talks about gods that are created from statues that are imbued with divine energies. And then he also talks about the God God that is way up there, essentially out of our reach, but that still holds some kind of influence, if even just over the spiritual realms, but not necessarily our physical plane, perhaps.
And so I think in that sense, Abraxis kind of equates to something more like the demiurge, which is the God above, gods that exist in this plane and influences in this plane. But there’s still a king that he has to report, he has to adhere to or be ruled under. Yeah, that’s an interesting. And again, for those that don’t understand the gnostic cosmology, essentially the upper eons, right? Is this more metaphysical thing where we have Adam and Eve, but then before them was also this perfect, I guess, light being, for lack of a better term, where it was like this, what they call the anthropost, I think.
Anthropost, yeah. So like this light being. And then obviously what I love about the gnostics was that their cosmology makes the most sense to me, where at the beginning it was essentially consciousness, and then consciousness, and then you have the feminine figure, which is the father, thinking of. There’s like a whole breakdown and then the Christos, where it’s, know, a thought of itself thinking of itself, something along those lines.
But like this idea of consciousness kind of reproduced a counterpart. And then they got together, right, the masculine feminine, and then they created the christos, the sun. So you have the Trinity there, and then from there you have reality emanating outwards, where whatever you can perceive, kind of based on what we’ve talked about today, whatever you’re perceiving is actually an emanation of the source of the. One of that godhead that I guess we’re all trying to strive to go up there, not become it.
I guess some people would say they want to become it. But I don’t believe that we can. At the end of the day, I think that there is no such thing as perfection other than God itself, right? The divine creator, the architect, whatever he is. And so I’ve always wondered about Abraxas work because it’s very enigmatic and there’s not a lot about it. And even the gnostics, there’s a lot about them that we don’t understand.
And I’ve always wondered where that fitted, because it’s such a weird thing to look at, if you look at the totally. The rooster head and everything. Snake, right? It’s so bizarre. And it always, always interested me. And I want to read from the Robert Flood the first section of the. Again, synchronistically enough, he’s talking about archetypes in this is. I don’t even know what book it is from because I have the Latin.
Let me translate the name real quick here. Google translate, good old Google translate for the Latin. The metaphysics of. The metaphysics of both the greater and lesser cosmos. And now it’s got a whole long name. But this is by Robert Flood, another interesting figure in history, right? Like this mystic alchemist sort of guy, but he’s going on. And this is the archetypal microcosmic principles, ideal or primary? Chapter one, that the primary principles of the microcosm are the same as those of the macro, about spherical letters consisting of the ineffable tetragrammaton, and that they are not common and dead, but fiery and alive.
What are the hidden influences of the world? Now, flood is one of these guys where he had his own cosmology, he had his own thing going on. Very interesting nonetheless. But he goes as in the description of the microcosm’s origin. And I need to translate a previous section before this previously set forth by us. Its primary principles are explained to be round or spherical letters. And this is, I think, talking about the Sephiroth of the tree of life.
And he has his own interpretation of the Sephiroth, which we have said, the father’s esteem for their perfection, in very few words, but clearly so. Also the same are the super substantial foundations of the essence and existence of the microcosm, since it is the image of the world as the world itself is said to be the icon or model of the archetype, insofar as it is like a most polished mirror in which the most beautiful and the most holy simulacrum of the tetragrammaton is seen.
Now, mind you, this is from 1617 that he wrote this. So the language, when I do the translation through Chat GPT, I like to keep the, I tell it what to do, I go, hey, keep the most original wording as you can to really extract. But there’s obviously going to be some indiscrepancies sometimes because it’s an older form of a language. So, yeah. Just to keep that in mind.
Sure. Hence both these structures are called the sons of the tetragomaton, since they not only derive their origin from it, but also bear its truest image insofar as by the power of his word, or uncreated seal in which the divine majesty is imprinted, they receive the impression of life and being and exist as myro. It’s like a form of fungi. I can’t say the word or sanctuaries in which that super substantial treasure is hidden, as in a most prepared arc, and is enclosed and segregated from the darkness or the abyss of matter.
And the whole created mass is eventually illuminated, activated, vivified, and ultimately preserved by the splendor of its presence. So the way I took that, almost like, you receive illumination through this divine language, and I’ve heard before that the way vowels hold existence together. And the reason this is interesting to me is because the gnostics had the book of eau, which were these divine letters, to be able to interact with these gods, I guess like these other things on the other side.
And the whole thing of the word where we go back to the logos, which is what McKenna and Philip K. Dick, they believe that the gnostics frozen time, the actual living word at the Nagamati or the dead seas, right? This area that lay dormant for God knows how long, there. And that was the secret that they were holding, that they had this knowledge that once you interacted with this thing, it infected you and it gave you the gnosis, like you interact with it.
And mind you, how long after the fact that they interacted with that, they found these things that they laid untranslated? And I mean, a good, I think. Have they translated the whole thing? I don’t know if they have. Nakamadi? Yeah, definitely nakamadi. There’s definitely a lot of other texts, of other traditions and alchemical texts that are written in Arabic that lay untranslated. There’s still a lot of stuff out there, especially stuff that’s not in Latin, because during a large part of the 16 hundreds, 17 hundreds, 18 hundreds, a lot of those texts that were in Latin were more easily available to be translated by people who can read and speak and translate Latin.
But then the ones that were in Arabic kind of fell by the wayside because largely the interest in Europe, that’s where that was to translate these things. And so people were more likely to know how to do Latin than interesting. Yeah. So again, it laid dormant for a long time. This was when Crowley was doing some funky stuff, I think, is when he had some sort of interaction.
Anyways, that’s a whole nother episode. These letters, then, containing in themselves the infinite power of the tetragrammaton, constitute that one and true ineffable name of God, by which all things, both macro and microcosm in the ideal world or archetype, were delineated before creation. And indeed, it should not be believed that these letters are of the same essence or nature as those common hebrew letters drawn with ink or human carving.
And this is where it got interesting for me, which are indeed truly dead and artificial. But those letters were the same as those spoken in the beginning from the dark abyss and expressed in golden characters or formed from the purest fire, whose presence, effect and motion immediately emanated the world from the archetype into the spherical structure. I know that’s going to piss off the flat earthers, but this is flood from the 1617, right, by whose act, according to the palmist, the heavens were established and a spirit full of fiery love was born over the waters, whose influence infused all virtues and especially souls first into the world and then into its creatures of such great significance.
The efficacy were those formal or fiery and spherical letters of the first order. Yadhe, Vadhe, as nature removed from those common and accidental letters, produce in public by human invention, in which no virtue is inherent except insofar as they are like a stigmata or characters of art by which one man’s intention may be understood by another. And yet such is the ignorance of the common people, such extreme blindness that they refuse to admit any letters other than these, alone, artificial and dead, completely ignorant that the spiritual letters, according to the apostle, are written in the innermost and central parts of the creature from whose impressions the word proceeds, and which, according to St.
John the Baptist, is the life of every being. Right. And then John the Baptist, being one of those guys that know he’s talking about the Rosicrucians, would repeat those first verses over and over again to get into these states of active imagination. And they would go into the word, into these stories in the Bible and interact with these. They talked about interacting with the real Jesus Christ in their meditative states that they would repeat.
Right. And we can’t have that. No. Put a stop to that. You can’t talk to Jesus by yourself. You got to come to church. Exactly. It went from these gnostics that were like, hey, you can achieve the gnosis through us and ascend. And then it became a brokered experience where the church is. No, you can’t. How? You’re saying you can’t. I’m just thinking of Simpson when he’s strangling Bart.
Like, what are, you know, you can’t do that. So he’s talking about how, yes, these letters are an invention of the human mind, but it doesn’t fall short from something much greater. It reflects something much greater. And again, this is the first page bro, of this. And as I was reading, I was like, wait a minute. We’re talking about at the beginning this divine essence of these letters and how deity is able to reflect itself, even if it is a form of translation.
But you have a lot of guys, like William S. Burrows, where they talked about language actually being a sort of straitjacket for man because it doesn’t let you express yourself the way you want to express yourself. Have you ever had a concept that you wanted to express, but you couldn’t find the language, like, expressing love for your offspring? You can’t put that into words. No. You got to be there to know what it feels like.
You know what I mean? Yeah. Again, I’m sorry, but when I was reading this, I was like, wait, this is crazy, because he’s talking essentially about this essence of writing and of letters and write the tetragomaton, which birth reality into existence. That’s super powerful. Yeah. The spirit of this kind of writing really coincides well with what is kind of the internal spirit of alchemy and the spirit of gnosticism and essentially the spirit of what Jung was trying to achieve with his theories in analytical psychology.
And all of that is based around this idea that it’s the individual’s experience and the individual’s interaction with these mysteries that is the most important thing. That is the way for all of humanity to advance. It’s not just this one person saying, we got to do this, this religion saying, this is how it’s going to be done from here on. It’s the individual’s experience with the mysteries and wrestling with God itself and gods that basically raises all of humanity up.
And that’s alchemy in a nutshell, because alchemy is a tradition that’s not revealed through one school or one master. Even though some people do go through schools largely. It can be a tradition done completely in solitude, but it’s revealed, the work is revealed to you through a process of revelation, through dreams, through studying the texts yourself. Gnosticism. Similarly, there must have probably been hundreds of gnostic schools with how many survived for us to read about and document.
Because it was also very much about gnosis. It was about the own individual’s experience with the mysteries, with the divine and analytical psychology. What Jung was trying to attempt, basically and intuitively arrived at on its own, and then found the parallels in, was also the individual’s own ability to engage with these things inside of them, with the unconscious, and have their own journey of enlightenment, basically, yeah. And after reading this, it’s like a lot of these texts, even the gnostic texts, that was just how you mentioned earlier, the tip of the iceberg.
Right. Imagine the world behind these symbols that there’s certainly he talks about here, how these yahavadh, as nature, removed those from common and accidental letters produced in public by human invention. So those are the ones that stood out aside from all the other ones. So there’s something to those. And again, the word, these revelations show themselves to you. Maybe that’s what synchronicities are. Maybe that’s what God is when we’re writing and these ideas pop up to us and kind of sort of talk to us and animate themselves.
That’s deity. That’s God speaking to us. One way. It’s one way to look at it. Yeah. I think in terms of synchronicity, just because we didn’t really talk at all about it, and you shared some really great ones, and I really enjoyed hearing them. In my personal experience, synchronicity seems to be tied up somehow with something to do with consciousness and something to do with the way your consciousness has engaged with the reality, where it causes things to synchronize and come out in these ripples that you end up seeing in your environment.
And what’s bizarre in my experience is that these magical traditions, you could say, or traditions that are esoteric, the engagement with certain experiences that kind of are a willful engagement with something like things in the astral realm or just things inside of yourself that are very ritual based. In my experience, those cause those ripples. And what’s the most bizarre thing about these kind of synchronicities, if you’re paying attention to them, and that’s one of the things, magic traditions, actually, one of the great things that they teach you is to pay attention to your reality.
Because that’s where you see correspondences when you notice these things. The ripple goes into the future, obviously, after the moment, where you’re really synchronized with the reality in a meaningful way. But also, if you’re paying attention, it goes in reverse as well. It goes into the past. So you can experience a synchronicity. And then it’s been proven, in my experience, you do the thing that causes the synchronicity, and it still travels as a ripple into the future as well.
It’s really bizarre, and I’ve never really spoken about it before, but just in my own written experiences about it, I’ve noticed it’s very strange aspect. Yeah. Whenever I have a synchronicity or even deja vu, I take it as I’m on the right timeline. It’s a breadcrumb of reality telling me that something is right, that I’m supposed to be there. And again, it’s like how young says, you can take it for what it is, or you can sort of ignore it, or you can take it and it can have a deeper meaning for you.
Right. That’s what I love about synchronicities, where it’s like, it can be, what do headlights and tailgates or what are tail lights have anything to do with my reality? It’s like, well, hashtag, if you know, you know. And that’s why, if there was somebody behind that glass at that office, they were probably like, the hell is wrong with this guy? And why is he taking a picture of our sign? Right? Because I’m laughing my ass off as I’m looking at this sign.
The person that had the cracked headlight, they weren’t too happy about it, but it had significance to me. Like, when I sent them the picture, they’re like, oh, ha. They’re like, ha. I’m jumping with joy because obviously I was there because they had had a mishap with their headlight. Right? Again. So it’s weird how life works that way, where you can extract. I like to be positive about things usually, but I guess that’s how you can also extract significance or something positive, I guess, from wherever you are.
No? Yeah. Just to riff off that, as the idea is still fresh, if we were to catalog our synchronicities and try to figure out perhaps what is the origin point? Was there a moment where we really synchronized our consciousness with something in our reality in a meaningful way? In this instance, let’s say with the taillight thing, what if the origin point had something to do with your empathy for it? Was a family member or a friend.
You said family member. Yeah. What if that was the origin point? That caused the ripple of the synchronicity to manifest that something in that moment of empathy for them that was very authentic, as a very genuine moment, that was not contrived, that was not selfish, but it caused a little moment where just things synced and then it was a ripple, and then you ended up seeing one or two little synchronicities that resulted from it.
Yeah. Almost like how he’s saying, right, these things will pop up and bubble up to the surface and become apparent. So you might be in a synchronicity soup and you just don’t know it because sometimes I’m not actively looking for them. But exactly when those pop up where I’m literally, the line stops right when I’m there, and I look over and I go, oh, hey. If it would have been 33% off, I think I would have fizzled out of reality.
I would have lost my shit because that would have been crazy. And then the Elijah thing, which was really weird too, almost like the Elijah thing feels so good. It’s like stamping. It’s like, no, this is a synchronicity. I’m like, oh, that was just a coincidence. And it’s like, no, that stops you in your tracks to be like, okay, wait a minute. That’s really. Know. How many times does that have to be a coincidence before it starts to be an emerging pattern? Right, exactly.
I always think of it that way. Yeah. How many coincidences need to pile up before it’s no longer a coincidence? And to wrap this up, MJ, I want to have you back on. I was excited to have you on, so I kind of stole the show, and I kind of steered it in some other directions. I had a lot of questions, and I was excited. But to finish off the abraxis sort of elevation of your consciousness or whatever it is, defining that true self, I believe that you have Zozimos of Panopoulos, one of these ancient alchemists, the first alchemist, which we have writings of, was also writing about the Book of Enoch.
And the reason that Enoch is interesting, maybe not in the first Enoch, but second and third Enoch. And apparently there’s a fourth Enoch, too, which I learned the other day at the end of third Enoch, after he’s shown all of this knowledge of the watchers and these angels and these upper and heaven, this upper eons or this other realm, this other dimension. At the end of it all, he becomes Metatron.
Right? And I think what is interesting about that is that I believe it shows where perhaps this knowledge can take one, and maybe, perhaps the church knew that, and these alchemists and all these hermeticists and all these different esoteric orders had some sort of knowledge about that, where once you revealed the secrets, because, remember, the watchers is where alchemy came from. If you follow the story, right, they passed it down to the daughters of men, and from there we have the bloodlines of Noah Chem and all these different.
Or the alchemists. So alchemy has like, a sort of divine origin, right? Because essentially it’s about manipulating and stepping outside of space and time, if you believe that mumbo jumbo. But I believe that’s why they took Enoch out of the canon, because it was too powerful and it revealed, like, hey, once you learn the secrets of the secrets and you interact with the divine, maybe not perhaps God himself, but the divine.
These watchers that are learning from the divine alchemist, you become the lesser Yahweh. You become the little Yahweh. You become this thing that sits next to the throne of the Godhead. It’s like it was through all the stuff that he learned that it just fizzled him out of reality, and he became this overseer, this angel. He became this light being. And they say that that was the angel that stopped Abraham from killing.
I forget the son’s name, but that whole story of sacrificing your first son and all that. But I just find that interesting. And I’ve always thought about that, because also, the 33rd chapter of the Book of Enoch talks about the opening at the North Pole, the 33rd chapter, this ascension point where you’re able to go to. And again, it’s a whole different episode. But I just find it interesting that one of the first alchemists was almost obsessed with reading and writing about these watchers and entities that were interacting with man.
Anti diluvian man, I guess, is what you could call it. But, yeah, I don’t know what you think about that. Maybe that’s what Jung figured out at the end of it all. Whereas, like, yeah, once you learn the secret to the secrets, maybe you don’t have to read all this mumbo jumbo. You can just look within yourself, and you’re able to extract forth that essence. I don’t know.
Maybe. And maybe I wonder if young, if he would have learned about other cosmologies, because I know he was really into the greek stuff, if he learned about other cosmologies and other religions, if these entities that he was interacting with would have morphed into entities pertaining to that religious cosmology or that culture or that region. Like, maybe if he interacted with Mesopotamia and stuff, maybe these entities would have been the Anunnaki.
Right. So how our environment influences these archetypes and these symbols that we’re seeing, you know what I mean? So, I don’t know. We’re never going to find out, but just something interesting to think about. Yeah, we definitely have to bookend it with something. But yeah, I love all the things you said, and I would talk about it for another hour, but it’s going to leave me with some things to think about, too.
With the Book of Enoch stuff, I got to crack that open and start reading some of that, too. Thank you for that. Yeah, I always like to leave a little cliffhanger to leave the people wanting more. So maybe we can talk about that on our next absolutely get together. But MJ, I really enjoyed this. I had a lot of fun today. Can you tell the people where they can find you one more time, where they can look up your podcast, YouTube channel, whatever you want to let the people know? Yeah, no, absolutely.
Just head over to Spotify. My podcast is creative Codex. Codex. And we just released a four part series about Jung and alchemy that I’m sure your listeners will enjoy. Otherwise, I’m on Instagram at MJ. Dorian. Dorian. And look forward to meeting some of your great listeners on this community you got. And again, it’s a pleasure. I really had fun. Thank you, Juan. Yeah, no doubt. Thank you for your time.
Thank you for being here. And make sure. Right. Follow the show on social media at the juanajuanpodcast tj ojp. com call in 407-476-4606 I’ve gotten a lot of interesting messages. I’ll be doing an episode soon with those. And as always, everyone, thank you for being here. And catch you on the other side, or see you on the other side. Bye bye. Sa. .
