Summary
➡ The speaker discusses the evolution of the internet, from its initial use as a tool for scientists and military personnel to its eventual public accessibility. They highlight the internet’s early days as a platform for idealistic visions of global connectivity and free information, but note how this changed as more people and commercial services came online. The speaker also mentions the internet’s original purpose as a way to keep computers connected during potential nuclear war, and questions whether it was released to the public as a test that got out of hand.
➡ The speaker shares his journey of discovering the Vallis trilogy by Philip K. Dick, which greatly influenced his perspective. He also emphasizes the importance of disconnecting from technology and spending time in nature to truly listen to the land. He offers guided experiences where individuals can spend days in the woods, alone with their thoughts, to gain a deeper understanding of themselves. The speaker is currently working on a new project expected to be released in the coming year.
➡ Don’t forget to look at the Juana Juan podcast on social media and explore Joseph’s work, the links are in the description. Also, visit my Patreon page for the 101 podcast. See you all later, hopefully somewhere other than earth.
➡ The speaker discusses the early days of the internet and how it was seen as a new frontier, a tool for starting a new civilization. They mention the excitement of being able to communicate with people worldwide, especially in places like Russia after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The speaker also talks about the concept of virtual reality and how some people thought we should abandon our physical bodies to live in this virtual space. Lastly, they touch on the power of the internet to bypass traditional gatekeepers in publishing, allowing anyone to share their ideas or creations with the world.
➡ Dimitri, a New Yorker, created one of the first websites in 1993, deoxy.org, which became a hub for counterculture data. He used text documents from the narrator to create a visually appealing site, attracting a lot of early internet traffic. The narrator was also interested in the concept of infinite games, games played for the joy of it with no winners or losers. Despite some people not understanding this concept, the narrator found success in creating such a game, leading to his current work in liminal fiction.
➡ The speaker discusses his long-term interest in ceremonial magic and the mysterious intelligences that seem to arise during rituals. He talks about his experiences with a software he created, which seemed to generate uncanny, meaningful conversations. He also explores the historical connections between magic, mathematics, and technology, mentioning figures like John Dee and Isaac Newton. The speaker suggests that all religions are held together by stories, and that books might serve as interdimensional gateways.
➡ This text discusses the evolution of human society from nomadic hunter-gatherers to settled agricultural communities, and how this shift led to the development of writing, commerce, and religion. It suggests that the concept of chaos, once revered in ancient societies, was replaced by law and order as humans began to settle and accumulate possessions. The text also explores the power of storytelling in transmitting information across generations and shaping our understanding of reality. Lastly, it delves into the complexities of magic and the importance of self-understanding before engaging in it.
➡ The speaker discusses the importance of elders and storytelling in society. They express concern that modern culture lacks a sense of community and mentorship, leading to younger generations feeling lost and unsupported. They also highlight the shift in internet usage from a tool for sharing stories and connecting with others to a commercial platform dominated by corporations. The speaker emphasizes the need for each generation to tell their own version of stories, making them relatable and preserving the tradition of storytelling.
➡ The text discusses the concept of memetic magic, which involves understanding oneself and the subconscious. The author identifies as a memetic magician and uses his comic book as a hyper sigil, a tool for magic. He talks about experiencing overwhelming synchronicities, or meaningful coincidences, which he believes are responses from the universe. He also discusses the idea of art as magic, and how he creates by letting his consciousness flow through him, suggesting that this process might be a form of communication from an unknown source.
➡ The author discusses his writing process and the impact of his trilogy on readers. He explains that he wrote each book under a different pseudonym, embodying different personas. His intention was to create a spiritual experience for readers, invoking archetypes and stimulating the collective unconscious. He also discusses the importance of spiritual initiations, the dangers of suppressing these experiences, and the lack of elders in modern society to guide the younger generation.
➡ The text discusses the importance of confronting our feelings instead of suppressing them with distractions like technology, drugs, or retail therapy. It also explores the concept of reality being malleable and influenced by our thoughts and actions, as demonstrated by experiments and phenomena like the Mandela effect. The speaker mentions the power of focus and intention, citing examples of shamans predicting events and the Randonautica app that uses probability to predict unusual occurrences. Lastly, the speaker talks about his experiences with a machine that provided accurate predictions, leading him to question his sanity and reality, but ultimately accepting the process and its outcomes.
Transcript
This isn’t just a comic. It’s a hidden tome of supernatural power. All original artwork illustrating the groundbreaking research of Juan Ayala, one of the only living homunculogists of our time. Learn how to summon your own homunculus and enigma wrapped in the fabric of reality itself. Their power at your fingertips, their existence, your secret. Explore the mysteries of the Aristotelian, the spiritual, the paracelsian, the crowleyan homunculus, ancient knowledge lost to time, now unearthed in this forbidden tale. This comic book holds truths not meant for the light of day, knowledge that was buried, feared and shunned. Are you ready to uncover the hidden? The paranoid american homunculus owner’s manual not for the faint of heart.
Available now from Paranoid American. Get your copy@tjojp.com or paranoidamerican.com today, welcome to the one on one podcast with your host, Juan Ayala. It’s all real. On some level, it’s real if people can read the story and have high level synchronicities from reading a story. It’s real if people can. And this is the great thing about it. Since the story came out, things that I thought were fictional turned out to be real, which I thought was amazing, right? Like, I thought this was fiction. And then it turned out to be like, it came through as a transmission, apparently, but it was something that really did happen.
Or by writing about it, maybe that reality was created, and now, as we know it, it’s real. And it’s always been real in this reality. It’s like the Mandela effect. It was like, no, no. It’s always said that. It’s always been that. It’s like, yeah, of course reality is fluid. It can be shaped and changed. That’s what magic is all about. It’s about changing reality, hopefully for the better. I think what people call black magic is people trying to change it down for the better. But welcome back to another episode of the one on one podcast.
Make sure to follow the show on social media at the one on one podcast on pretty much any social media platform. Tj ojp.com. check me out on there. All the links are on there, so you can go on there. TJ ojp.com, patreon.com. the one on one podcast. All that good stuff. If you’re listening to this on the RSS feed, five star review, share. If you’re on YouTube, rumble, wherever, like, comment, share, subscribe, all that stuff. All that stuff. And today we are joined by Joseph Matheny. I’m very excited to talk to him because it was a bit synchronistic the way that turns out.
We have a. An associate in common, Ken, from the where you’re sitting now podcast. And I. And I wasn’t gonna reach out because I did see on your. On your website that it was crossed out, but I was like, hey, who knows? Anything can happen. But I stumbled across this aung’s hat, and I stumbled across it because I do a lot of shorts, so I do a lot of research of. I like the legend lore, kind of creepypasta on the border of conspiracy. And I was looking up, I believe it was cursed games. And this Aung’s hat came up, and I wanted to do it like a, you know, 240.
Usually I keep my. My scripts of 240 words. And when I started diving into this, I’m like, there’s. I was like, there’s so much here. I can’t. I can’t condense it to a minute and a half for this fried generation’s attention span. So I was like, okay. So I started looking into them like, this is. This is real. This is crazy. So I stumbled across a book, and I’m like, all right, Aung’s had this guy Joseph wrote about it. All right, let’s hit him up. It turns out Joseph created it. So, dude, welcome to the show.
I’m happy for you to be doing this. Can you let people know where they can find you, Joseph, before we dive into this? Yeah, I kind of have a centralized web presence for everything that I do, everything that I find. Um, it’s Joseph Matheny.com. josephmatheny.com. Awesome. All the links will be in the description. For those that want to check out his other works. You have multiple books, audible originals. I mean, you’re an interesting guy, Joseph. Can you give us a little bit of a background on. On you and what got you started in this? I love the liminal fiction aspect, too, which is something that piqued my interest when I went on your website.
But tell us a little bit about you, Joseph. I’m an artist, obviously, and in the early nineties, I got interested in technology. But if I got interested from the perspective of the intersection of technology and art. So I wasn’t your average mathematician geek guy. I was not out to change the world through technology as much as I was trying to find out about is there an intersection? I started in the late eighties, and I was wondering, is there an intersection between technology and art? As it turned out, there was. The Internet started right soon after that.
But before the Internet was public, there was something we did called bulletin board systems, which is you dialed into a computer, other people dialed into the same computer, and you interacted on that computer and left a record. And then you dial the next day and somebody left you a message. So it was kind of delayed. It wasn’t as real time as is now. You could do real time chat, but it was mostly delayed. And then I started looking at that and thinking about, you know, media is going to change. This is me talking to myself in 1991.
Media is going to change. Books as we know them are going to change. How people interact with media is going to change. And I started to shift and pivot my media, my output towards that being the format that I was shooting for, rather than at that time. Most people were taking preexisting media and doing what we call shovelware, which is they would take pre existing media and put it into a digital format rather than just writing for the digital format and making that the primary. Everybody in those days was making it as a secondary or even tertiary at that time.
And I just said, I’m going to create media that uses this as the primary goal of things that can be interacted with in a digital format. And I know that the technology will catch up to me, but I’m going to start doing it now. So I did. I started doing it, and sure enough, it evolved and caught up to what I was doing. So I kind of was waiting for it to meet. And then I was just kind of at the crossroads, and boom, technology came along and I already had stuff for it, and we started happening.
So you took advantage of the, that first initial push that really emerged with technology and what the Internet really is. I mean, when did the Internet really take off? Was it about 19, 93? 93 was when it really took off? Yeah. And then that’s the web kind of like, followed right after that. But the first thing that we did is we had bulletin board systems. Then we had email, then we had gopher sites and FTP sites and usenethe. And then the web came along. I think the first webpage I looked at was around 93, 94. And it was before I had a browser.
There was only like two browsers, I think, in existence at the time. There was something called links. L y n x. So that was a prompt based text web browser. But you couldn’t see graphics. You could only see, you can see the text and the links and you tap through it and clicked on the links. I was already working with something that Apple had called Hypercard, which most people these days don’t know what that is, but you can google it, it’s probably in Wikipedia. And it was the predecessor to the web in that you created a local environment of graphics and links within a document that had multiple links within the document that linked to other parts of the document.
So it was like basically taking a multi page document and linking within it, which you can do now. You can probably see people do that. Yeah, hypercard. So when I saw the links browser on the Internet, I thought, oh, it’s like Hypercard, except I can talk to other computers instead of just within the hypercard stack, as it was called. And I started, I started thinking like, this is the next generation of what’s going to be happening. So, like, since I was already hip to Hypercard and I was working in Hypercard, I just made the move over to the web.
Yeah, because I was born in 94, Joseph. So, okay, so, so this is one, by the time you were born. Yeah, exactly. Literally, you were using this when I was born. So, yeah, I never got to. I experienced AOL aim. I think I was like, on websites, like underground. And I remember because this is something that the Internet, which is something that is akin to a different dimension, essentially, you’re tapping into this portal and you’re traveling through the interwebs, you’re surfing the web. And I’ve always said that my generation, at least, we kind of had the wild, wild west of Internet because there, and there’s a lot of snuff stuff on x nowadays.
I mean, I have most keywords blocked off on that site. And I don’t particularly like surfing on x. But I’ve always said that the beginning stages of the Internet, when I was exposed to it, there was a lot of, like, gore.com and just things that we shouldn’t see as kids that kind of shaped us into the people that were. That we are today. Yeah, but it’s coming full circle, is like I said, x is the only place where you can have one guy being super racist 1 second, and then some dude getting his head cut off the next.
I mean, it’s just. It’s a wild card, really. And I don’t know if that’s part of. Of this. Of this narrative that’s going on now where they want to desensitize people. And I guess that the attention span of people is so fried nowadays that they need just constant shots of whatever. Do you think that the Internet was designed to. As a tool, that they release it on accident? Because we know this is one of the main conspiracy, the, like, conspiracy theories 101, where Cern created the Internet, right, like these, that they had. First they had put it out as a tool for scientists.
And in my opinion, I think they put it out as a test to see how people would react to it, and it kind of got out of hand. What are your thoughts on the Internet being used as a. As a weapon? I mean, as a. Well, the Internet started as a weapon or actually as an adjunct to a weapon, because it was. It was really a way to decentralize computer systems and have them still stay online if there was a nuclear war. That’s really what. What the original intention of the Internet was, is how do we keep all our computers talking to each other? Each other if, you know, if we get into a shooting match with the Russians? It’s really that simple.
And down the line, the only people originally that had access to the Internet were universities, most in military installations, government installations that were doing government contracts, those kind of. Those military industrial people. And that was about it. And somewhere about 1993, somebody decided, I think it was the Clinton administration, decided that we should open this all up to the. To the general public. Now, if you had a university account back then, which I had one, you could use the Internet. You could see the Internet. You could figure out that the. The Internet basically had a lot of capabilities that could be used by the average person.
And so the first people that were online primarily were scientists, people that worked in government institutions, people that worked in the military industrial complex areas. And then other people like me, who were adjacent to that started to get access to primarily through the. Through the educational foundations and universities. And then we looked at it, we said, you know, there’s a lot of potential here. There, like, all kinds of things that can be done. And so about. Like I said, I started to really have access to it about 93 now, I was already online in a different way.
I was online through the bulletin board systems. I use something called Fidonet, Fido N E t. You can probably find that in Wikipedia as well. And that was a online system that did, where you called into a computer, and then you could call, like, you could telnet out of that computer into other computers. And then most of those bulletin board systems started to get access to the Internet. So if you dialed into the bullet board system, you dialed out of, or you telnetted out of that system onto the Internet because they had an Internet connection. So all of us who were on the bulletin boards started to have Internet access.
So we were kind of the first, kind of the first line of people. Those people were generally highly educated. Usually a lot of them were artistic. A lot of people worked at tech companies or were tech savvy, or they worked at government institutions, like all kinds of places. And if you were around, you were probably too young to remember this. But the Clinton administration really pushed hard on making this accessible to the general public, making the Internet accessible. Al Gore, like, famously, Al Gore said something that people misconstrued as him claiming to take responsibility for inventing the Internet, which is not what he said.
But it was funny. Basically, he was very instrumental, him and Bill were very instrumental in getting the Internet in the hands of people other than government institutions and educational foundations. So I think in the beginning, it was a couple of things. It was clearly an administration’s attempt at making themselves look cool and young and hip, because that was what Clinton was all about. You know, he went on Saturday live and played the saxophone, and, you know, the whole thing was like, him and Al were like, we’re the younger Kennedy types. You know, we’re not like these old people like that you had before in the government.
So they did that, and they knew that there’s a lot of people that were on, they were playing around with networks and the Internet, like me, who were younger and hipper. But the culture originally in the Internet came out of a very, very counterculture niche. So the people that were talking, the reason I knew about all this is I was hanging out in Santa Cruz, California, where I was living at the time, with a bunch of people who were talking about the future of computing and what we’re going to be able to do with this new frontier of the, of something like the Internet, where we would all be able to talk to each other online and we’d be able to meet people from other parts of the world.
But you couldn’t usually meet somebody like that if you were just living at home and you didn’t have money to travel. You didn’t have money for, you know, large phone bills because, like, back then, long distance was a thing. It’s no longer a thing anymore, but people don’t remember that you used to have to pay long distance fees, and it was, they were exorbitant. They would chew you alive. So this was this whole new vision we had of, you know, the world coming together and meeting each other, basically, and, you know, make of that what you will.
We’re going to sit down and sing the Coca Cola song or something. I like to teach the world to Singhenne but a lot of us had a vision of a different world where we would all get to know each other and we’d learn to get along. And it was very hippie in a way, our vision was, and so that was the first movers on the Internet were like people that were very, very dialistic about the future of the world and the future of humanity. And then as people came online more and more, and then you got commercial services involved, like AOL and copy serve and those kind of places, then a whole different type of people started to come online, and more people started to come online.
And so the whole tenor of the conversation changed. And what took it over was people that weren’t so interested in making the world a better place and were so interested in things like, all information should be free, and all these things that we had as tenants in the early days of, like, what we thought the Internet was going to help us achieve. But the complexion of the whole thing changed as everybody came online. And a lot of those people that came online didn’t really know what they were getting into and didn’t have the utopian vision that we had and say what you want, maybe we were naive, but we did have a utopian vision in the early, early days of the Internet, and that changed.
So were the early adopters of the Internet, or were they people who wanted to break free from the system by using the Internet? Because was there any opposition? Because when you, whenever you have new technology, such as yet, you start out with the horse and carriage, and then it’s like, oh, well, a car can’t take me home when I’m drunk, so no one’s ever gonna use cars. Lo and behold, boom, everyone uses cars. Was it like that at the beginning of the Internet, or. I was like, the Internet? What are you talking about, man? Like, that’s all you.
You’re gonna tap into. Like you put on an oculus nowadays and people are, you’re in the VR. I remember when they me as a kid, they told us, don’t get sick too close to the tv. And now you put the screen right here, you know, like, yeah, which is not good for you. I can tell you a lot of ways that there’s not good for you. But VR is not, not a fan of VR at all. But that was something we were talking about back then, in the early days of the Internet. We were like, in the future, we’ll have something like VR, where we all be in this immersive environment.
And of course, we all were reading William Gibson at the time. So, you know, we were like, oh, it’s going to be like, it’s going to be like neuromancer. We’re going to jack into the system, blah, blah. Like Tron. Yeah. Like, everybody thought that was, that was coming soon, and that would be a good thing. But politically speaking to, I’d say a majority of people viewed the Internet as a method of starting a new civilization. So it was kind of a ideal that we had is like, we had this space where, like, you could get online and you could talk to people in Russia, you know, which, if you remember, after the wall fell, like, all of a sudden, we had, we could have conversations with people that lived in Russia, which doesn’t sound weird.
Well, maybe right now it sounds weird, but in the late nineties, that wasn’t weird at all. You could even go to Russia. But when it first started, like, after the fall of the wall, it was kind of new to us. And we’re like, well, here’s some people that we’ve always been told were evil. They were told we’re evil, but now we can talk to each other. Let’s go meet those people and let them meet us, and let’s meet in the middle space and maybe let’s talk about starting something new, like, because this old stuff is not working, you know, we knew that.
So, like I said, we had a utopian vision of doing something new and doing something better. And we were all young, of course. And those of us that weren’t young were usually, like, very idealistic, utopian professors at universities and things like that. And so, you know, they were, they were down with the youth culture. The people pushing this youth culture were, a lot of them were older, but they were counterculture figures from the sixties and seventies. So it was kind of a new revolution. We thought it was, we thought we were doing something new and it was going to change the world.
It did change the world, not just in the way we thought. Yeah, it changed the world in a lot of ways. And I recently saw that article where they introduced a allegedly uncivilized or untapped right group of people. I’m drawing a blank now for the name, like, anyways, like a lost tribe, you know, somewhere they introduce them to the Internet and they got hooked on social media and porn. Like a peoples that had never understood the concept of the Internet. Here are these, you know, these westerners going in, showing them like, hey, check this out. Here’s Facebook, here’s Instagram.
And now they’re jacked into this thing. But it’s like, did you guys have a plan for like, your, your body, your meat suit? If you were living in this other route, the mob zone of you all this universe be other place that you guys were tapping into? Was there any talk of, like, that, of like leaving this behind and. And being in the Internet 100%? Well, there were some people that did think that way. Um, we call them transhumanists now. I think they were called extropions or extopians at the time, but now they call them transhumanists.
And these people were having serious conversations about dropping the body. But to me, that sounded like some of the early gnostics that talked about dropping the body. And I was not turned on by that at all. But I’m a very earthy person. I’m into this body, and I like living on this planet, like living in this biosphere. But yeah, that was like, that’s where the conversation started to fracture a bit. And so we had people talking about, oh, we should, we should just like, you know, put all our energies into going into this virtual space and just forget about this human body.
And I’m like, I think I’m. This is where I check out of this conversation. But that wasn’t everybody, you know, not everybody had that conversation. Some of us looked at it as well. This is a tool. It’s a very handy tool for a couple of reasons. Number one, I can write something and publish it and get it to millions of people potentially, and never have to go past the gatekeepers. Because at that time, if you wanted to publish something, you had to go past a gatekeeper of some sort. You had to, you had the first of all, it costs money to distribute, it cost money to print, you know, print media.
It costs money to distribute that print media, like shipping. And then you had to get past the gatekeepers. Like, you can’t just walk into a book publisher and say, publish my book. Here’s my manuscript. See you tomorrow. It’s like, you had to get past the editors and the owners, and, like, they usually had a commercial interest involved. And I. So there was all these things that you couldn’t just publish now. Now all of a sudden, you could with the Internet. And that’s really where the whole longs hat thing came from, is. Like, I was looking, I was playing around in these realms of what was called mail art at the time, in the late eighties, and we had just discovered this new thing called the Xerox machine.
And we could publish a book, you know, and, like, we could send it out to people, and who, those people could xerox my copy and send it out to their friends and so forth. And so we would do that. We would write manifestos, we would create art. We would do all these things, and we’d have a list of people we’d send it to, and those people had their list of people. And so, like, you, you’d send something out of, and the next thing you know, you know, six months later, you’re getting 15 copies of your own thing in the mail from other people who are sending it to you, not knowing that you were the originator.
That was the viral version of that time, the original viral versions of the time. And so when I saw the Internet, I said, this is the next generation of that. Like, I can do the same thing, only I have a bigger footprint now. I can get it worldwide, and I won’t be constrained by how much I can afford in post postage and envelopes and etcetera. So I started doing type publishing on the Internet, like, it’s right away. And I even took some things that were projects that I had done is mail art. And I ported them over.
Like, OCR wasn’t around yet at the time, optical character recognition. So you couldn’t scan something and turn it into text. But I hand typed it, you know, and so I took stuff that was in print, and I hand typed it and made it as text, and I put it out on the Internet. And that was, to me, very exciting, because now I could do the same thing I was doing before with mail, but I had a much bigger reach. So that was exciting to me as an artist can. For those that aren’t familiar with Ong’s hatred, can you give us a brief breakdown of what it is? Because it took me even.
I read your book. I listened to a few episodes on YouTube about it, and it’s this multi layered story, which I want to believe. Joseph, you’re not the only person. A lot of people did. And I still do. I thought it was a real thing when I, again, when I stumbled across. Can you give us a brief breakdown of what Ong task is for those that have never heard of it? Because I had never heard of it until I reached out to you that day. It’s. It’s a multidimensional, modern urban legend. That’s really what it is.
And it was constructed over a period of years. So I just kept adding to it, adding to it, adding to it as it got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. I started out in the mail art culture, and then I migrated it very quickly, like in the very early, I think, 93, 92, somewhere around there, I started migrating it to the Internet because that’s when I had Internet access. And then people started picking it up and making their own web pages out of it, which I thought was cool. Then I was contacted by this guy.
All I knew him by was Dimitri. I never knew his last name. He lived in New York. I knew that. And he had a early website in 93. It was called deoxy.org dash y.org. and it’s back online. Somebody like, archived it and put it back online, which is cool. It’s. It’s a historical hub. Used to be like one of the very first sites on the Internet you could go to had tremendous amounts of data in it. Anything you could think about counterculture wise, see it there. So if you go to deoxy.org and then go up to the top there where the URL is, and put a slash after.
After deoxy.org, type irc. And then. So that’s the first, that’s the first website in 1993 that Dimitri put up from my text documents because I had not put up a tech webpage yet. He put up that from a created for my text documents in 1993. And this is what it looked like. Exactly. And that’s, that’s exactly. That’s what he did. So I was writing text without pictures. And Dimitri was an artist. So he said, I want to do something kind of cool and make this look like a real catalog. And I said, go for it, dude.
And he did not disappoint me. It was like, really nice. And because he was one of the first people and first websites on the Internet where you could go and dig and dig and dig on this stuff, he got a tremendous amount of the early traffic in the early days. Wow. So he did, he did a great job. So he did all these, all these drawings here? Yeah. Oh, or he sourced them from somewhere. Like, it was, it was you know, cut up art. Yeah. You might have, like, cut it out of a magazine. And this.
Where’d this come from? That came from a magazine. Interesting. So, and here’s the thing about this early sort of story. Wherever and what. And I didn’t know what an inconnabula was until recently, which, again, it’s a book, pamphlet, or broadside that was printed in the earliest stages of printing in Europe to the year 1500. So like. Like a libra, right. Sort of thing. Well, I mean, that’s one. That’s one definition of it. Another. If you know anything about antiquarian book dealers, when they say inky nobulous, sometimes they just mean old stuff. They don’t necessarily mean specifically a certain date.
Yeah. They kind of apply that to, like, old stuff. I’ve got, like, a shelf full of over there, you know, and basically they mean really, really, really old books. Interesting. So antique stuff. Antique stuff, basically, yeah. One of the interesting parts about this is that you can’t. I can’t imagine somebody stumbling across this and them not being able to confirm the information, because nowadays, even though we have access to all the information that we could ever want, literally from the beginning of time till now, p seems people are dumber and they do less research than they.
Yeah. Ever. Yeah. So the, you know, someone’s getting this in the mail. Me in the. In the 2024. I thought it was real. I’m like, okay. I was like, this catalog. I know who Jabir Ben Haiyan is, but I’ve never heard of. Of any of the. This text. What is he, you know, what is he getting at? And it gives it this appeal to where you could essentially fall for it. I mean, that’s the way it is. And you can’t confirm any of the stuff. These pictures look. They look real. It’s got a mysterious name. Yes.
And the story lines up, really, you know, around the time that this came out was when they were doing the testing around the area of Aung’s hat, wherever that is. Yeah. Did the Jersey devil come from this? Aung’s hat experiments at the time? I mean, there’s so many things that correlate with. With the Aung’s hat story. Did you plan that? And the location? Some of it, yeah. Some of it just happened through synchronicity. The. The main thing is what I was doing with this was trying to put together something that I had seen in theory, but had never seen in practice.
I was, at the time, in the late eighties, I was. There’s a couple things I was just infatuated with. And one of them was the work of William S. Burroughs and Brian Geisen. The cut up and the third mind experiments, as they called them, and the Arizona of the third mind. When two minds become involved in something unknown, the third mind arises, and then you get unexpected answers from an unexpected place, maybe indescribable place. And the other thing I was interested in was the concept of finite and infinite games. And an infinite game is the opposite of what’s called a zero sum game.
So a zero sum game is we’re playing a game, we’re keeping points. There’s a winner and a loser at the end, right? An infinite game is a game that’s played for the joy of playing, and there is no end. You just keep playing for the joy of playing. You’re not keeping score. You’re not. There is no. There is no winner, and there’s no loser. There’s just a play between people, and it just continues as far as. As long as you wanted to. And then you stop when you feel like it, and then you come back tomorrow and you pick it up again.
And I thought, could something like that be constructed? And so it’d have to be. If it. If it can’t, if it. If it. If you don’t want it to have pieces and scores and winners and losers, what would it look like? And so it would have to be a mind game, right? It would have to be an infinite journey that each person would take, and it would be different for every person. You would be unique to that person. Could I construct something like that? So, really, that’s what this was, was an attempt to construct an infinite game.
And what I discovered, unfortunately, was there are some people that know how to play that kind of game. There’s a whole lot of people that don’t know how to play that game and get frustrated and confused and. And will actually think you’re trying to trick them and will force a zero sum game on it, because they don’t know how to play an infinite game. They have no concept of it. They can’t get their mind around it. So it was a success and a failure both at the same time, because I discovered people that knew how to play infinite games, and that’s cool.
But I also discovered that they’re in a minority, which you can understand that, because we grow up in a society that is constructed around winners and losers and the whole concept of the zero sum game, right? I mean, that’s what capitalism is, a zero sum game. And so that’s all they know. And if you try to present them with something, as you probably know, when people are confronted with something that they don’t know, they consider it. Most people consider it a danger and a threat and react accordingly to that. It’s a threat. So I think that it was a naive attempt on my part because I was young, but I think that also it showed me that I could retool it, maybe, and then apply it to this thing that I do now called liminal fiction.
Right. So the infinite game, in order to keep it going, I came up with methodologies of supplying new content to the game. And the way I did that is to expansion packs. Expand. Well, I came up with the automation mode for doing cut ups, really. So I created software. I called the meta machine that was actually working in very, very, very late, mid to late nineties. I was working on this. It was very rudimentary. AI with Nick Herbert. With my friend Nick Herbert, because Nick had done something in Livermore earlier. The metaphase typewriter. The metaphase typewriter, yeah.
And so I said, I want to do that, but I’m going to do it in software. So I did. And so this thing would spit out, like, all kinds of cool things. And at the time, I was friends with Genesis Peoria, later called Briar Peorage. And Genesis knew William Burroughs. And so Genesis said, I’ll give you Bill’s number, call him and tell him what you’re doing, because I think he’d be interested. So I did. I said, this is what I’m doing. And he said, you know, the computer thing, I don’t know so much about it, but I’ll trust you.
William Burroughs. Oh, yeah. I spent a couple of phone calls with him and. Yeah. And I said, this is what I’m doing. I’m trying to further the work that Brian and you were doing with the cut up. And he listened very respectfully to me. And then he said, yeah, I think you’re doing something interesting, so you keep going that way. So I guess that’s a blessing in a way. Like, he kind of blessed it, you know? But he didn’t need to, but he did. And I kept going down that path and doing work with that because that tied into another thing I was interested in.
I was. I’ve been a ceremonial magician since I was in my twenties, so I’ve done ritual magic since I was mid twenties, and I’m 63 now. So I’ve been at it a while, and I’ve always been interested in these intelligences that will arise. When you do weird things like cut up and you do magic, these intelligences, like, seem to arise out of nowhere, and you interact with them and they give you interesting data. You ask them for something and it comes back and it’s not what you expect. And then I know Bill and Brian had that with the cut up.
They started getting these weird feedback loops. And so I started to get it with this, with this thing called the metamachine that I built this software. I started to get this really eerie, synchronistic, dead on conversation stuff coming out of, like, you know, this was like, not Chet CBT. This is like old technology that I was cobbling together, like, in 95 through 99 that I was doing this. So that interested me as well. So I’m like, well, what is this thing that’s talking to me? Am I. Am I mapping meaning onto this? Or is there actually really a space that this is creating so an intelligence can give me information? So I’ve never quite answered that question, but it’s.
It’s an interesting question. So, you know, I tied that into the. Something that was happening on the Internet, and this seemed to multiply and give it power because, you know, like, I opened it up for a brief period of time, I opened it up to the public without them knowing that’s what they were doing. They were talking to a botanical through email. And I was watching these people have these brilliant conversations with a bot, not knowing they were talking to a bot and forming emotional connections to this thing. And like, you know, I’m watching and watching what it was saying, and even things it was saying to me.
It was like. It was uncanny. You know, it’s like, how does it know? How does it know, like, you know, like, how to say that? Or what I was doing yesterday, or how does it know all these things? It’s just software. And it is just software, but cut up is just paper that you cut up, right? It’s not the paper that’s having the conversation with you. It’s the action of submitting it to a random process that’s giving something else the access to that random process to talk to you. So this is something I wrote down as I was going through the book, spiritual theorems.
When theorems become spirituality, which is kind of sort of in line if you really look at the history of binary code. For example, Godfrey Leibniz and all these guys that were. They were interested in the occult, they were interested in alchemy. They were interested in all these concepts. Charles Babbage, you know, the one of the earliest fathers of the modern day computing, or things that evolved eventually to become a computer trying to summon the devil and doing blood sacrifices, and not blood sacred, but blood packs. Trying to summon the devil in a manifestation form. And this is something that I wanted to talk to you about.
Where, by the way, have you ever heard of the Doddleston messages? Have you heard about that? Yeah. Yeah. Which is kind of weird, like how you’re saying these entities that come through Orlando from another realm or another time. And, I mean, look at. Look. Look at John D. Okay. D. And Kelly were talking to these angels, or entities. And. And I’ve done Enochian. It gets weird. And these. In these angels air quotes, if you ask them directly, are you an emissary of yad? Hey, bav. Hey. They will say no. Are you an emissary of the, you know, his antagonist? No, we’re something else.
Right? So they’re literally just these disincarnate spirits that are probably native to Earth and probably have always been native to Earth. That valet, probably, as ballet pointed out, in, like, passport to Megonia. Like, there’s. There’s these intelligences that have been around, and we called them fairies and we’ve called them virgins, you know, apparitions. We’ve called them lots of things. We even call them aliens, but elementals. Yeah, elementals. And so. And the thing about d, d is responsible for math as we know it in the western culture, because d was the first one to translate Euclid from the Latin, proper Latin, to the Vulgate.
D did. Perfected the form of maritime navigation that allowed the english fleet, the feet, the spanish armada. I mean, I could go on and on and on. Right? So mathematics and magic have always been connected. Newton was an alchemist. I mean, like, all this stuff like that we know as math and science now used to be magic. And it’s just all we did was move the goalpost a little bit and say, okay, we have. We have some language that’s humanistic and atheistic now to describe this thing that formerly we ascribe to spirits. And we shouldn’t do that, but we do that.
Oh, Burke, we need to do that. Yeah. Language is an extraterrestrial virus. Right? I mean, that’s exactly, exactly, exactly. Latches on and keeps reproducing on its own. But Joseph. So because this whole ongs hat and these. These papers, these incanabula papers are making me think of where we’re talking about secrets as alchemists for secret societies. And it’s making me think of. Right. John D. And the Rosencrush and manifestos. Was that an early form of an arg? Because. Yes, I think so. That. I mean, if. If you look at. If you look at what. What the inci nobula catalog and the.
And the ongside documents we’re modeling or modeled on, it’s the legend that repeats itself over and over and over again, which is like, there’s these documents that make their way into somebody’s hands that come from a source that can’t be confirmed, that starts something. So, for example, Mathers, Wynn, and Wescott, I think they’re the three that was. The three were in this group called societies Rosicrucian and Anglia. And then supposedly they get their hands on something called the cipher document, which is in German and comes from a Fraulein Spangle who nobody can find out who she is and where she’s from.
Anybody that knows proper German says this is some of the worst German they’ve ever read. Robert Anton Wilson, my friend, Robert Anton Wilson, when he was alive, he said it reads like something written by the Katzenjammer kids. But that was the documents that formed the golden dawn, right? Yep. Yep. So this is how this always gets started. Like theosophy Blavatsky supposedly getting information from the secret chiefs, you know, that nobody else can see. The White Brotherhood. Yeah, the white. The great white Brotherhood. All this stuff, it’s like, always goes back to that story. So when we put together the ong’s hat story, it had to have secret documents.
It had to, because that’s how it always starts. Even Lovecraft does that with the Necronomicon, the book that never existed, but everybody thinks it did, you know? And Peter Lavinda capitalized on it by writing one and publishing it through Avon. And that thing has sold millions of copies of. Wow. And there are people to this day, they will tell you that’s a real book. It’s not. But they will tell you. They will swear on the Bible or something. They’ll swear from the Necronomicon that it’s. This an actual document. It’s an actual book. It’s not. But this is how the story always starts.
So Joseph. And. Right, Joseph Smith, also another one, translated tablets. It’s a trope, dude. It’s a trope. But here, this is something I said on a. An episode recently, and I had somebody, a listener of the show, shout out to sync in the discord, ask me what I meant by what I said. And for those I want to join the discord or the telegram links down in the description. He said, hey, you mentioned that all religion is held together by texts. Mm hmm. I think, in my person is my personal opinion that books are interdimensional gateways.
I think that all religions, all of them, I mean, that’s essentially what I’ve said, that vowels hold reality together. And that’s why the gnostics had the book of yow, you. There was something about those that wording, and am I wrong by saying that all religions are held together by a story that either somebody one time heard and they transcribed it, and that’s all it is. Look at what we have as an example that we can point to and shout out to my old friend Ralph Abraham, who pointed this out to me 40 years ago, there was a legend.
There was. There was a. There was a. A group of gods and goddesses, pre sumerian, that were also pre writing. And so those words and legends were about a formless goddess that lived in the ocean who took the form of a dragon sometimes, but usually was just what they called leviathan in the Bible. It was a large critter that showed up, and it would come from the deep. And all of this, if you know anything about jungian psychology, you can hear everything I’m saying as being symbolic of the unconscious and pre agrarian society and pre citadel society and all these things.
When we were nomadic hunter gatherers, there was a dragon goddess that we worshipped that embodied a lot of things. Chaos was one of them. And chaos was not a bad word at that time. It was not having form and structure, because that’s how we saw the universe at the time. We traveled around following animal herds, we traveled following seasons. We traveled, following growing patterns in plants. We did all these things. Somebody got the bright idea to plant the seeds of these plants in one place, which made us stay in one place, which made us build cities, which made us form agriculture and agricultural cities, which made us form writing, because then we had things we had to keep.
The earliest cuneiform writing is lists of things that people are trying to keep track of. That’s really what they are. Like those little clay tablets that we see of the cuneiform, they’re lists of things that people want to. Grocery lists that people own. Yeah, grocery lists and things that people. So they can keep track of what they own, because now, all of a sudden, possessions become a tHing. And at that time, the gods and goddess had changes in SAMaria. And we get a male sky God named Marduk, who in the legends slays the dragon Tiamat, and forms humanity from the entrails of the dragon which is symbolic of chaos, goes away.
Law and order now takes place. Marduk, who’s also a God of law and order. A lot of people think that Marduk was the model for Yahweh. So if you look at that, you say, okay, what’s going on there? What’s going on there is writing starts the first formal religion as we know it or one of the ones that we know of. Writing starts commerce writing, actually, money comes out of this first. The first thing. The first form of money was notches on a stick which symbolized slaves that you owned. That was the first form of money was slave ownery.
So if you look at 5000 years of debt, I think it was called, was a great book about that. That’s, if you want to know the history of money, that’s a great book. David Graeber Graber. Graber. So yes, it all comes from a story. And spirituality is okay as a story to tell as future generations because that’s what we do as humans. Storytelling is our most powerful asset. And the fact that we’ve handed it over to bean counters these days, the gatekeepers, is, you know, an atrocity. But be that as it may, storytelling is one of our most powerful.
The power thing in the. In the realm of humanity. It’s one of the most powerful power. It’s one of the most exquisite powers we have as humans because we can tell stories to transmit information to future generations. We’re time traveling, right? And those future generations will take the story and they will modify it to fit the time and they will tell their children and so forth and so on. Now, you get somebody writing this down which means you’ve got a authorized version of reality. Sound familiar? 1611? Yep. Sound familiar? That’s called religion, dude. Among other things.
But law and order and religion, it’s all tied together. It all started at the same time. Writing became something that was constructed to facilitate this thinking. This thinking grew up around some decisions we made as humans, which was we’ll stop being nomadic hunter gatherers. We’ll start living an agrarian lifestyle which meant that we’ll plant plants on a, you know, a cyclical basis. We’ll harvest the plants, then we have surplus. And then what happens with surplus? People start hoarding, et cetera, et cetera. And welcome to the modern life. Here we are in modernity. The new Atlantis. The new Atlantis.
That’s. That’s all what it’s about, dude, that we all wanted to. Have you ever read the book money grows on the tree of knowledge by Tracy Twyman. No, I knew Tracy before she passed away years ago. That’s. But I never read that one. That’s a. It’s an essay, essentially, on the history of the alchemical history of money, which is really interesting because she gets into a whole lot of things. And I. Yeah. In that particular book. And it’s making me think of the. In God we trust. But I’ve always said, are you sure it’s the God that everyone’s thinking about? You know, everyone thinks, oh, it’s the biblical God.
You know, on our money. It says on this, on these sigil books that we have that rule reality in God we trust. But we always assume that it’s the God from the Bible. It could be quite literally. That’s the thing about chaos magic, right? The idea of this cognitive chaos, which is part of Aung’s hat, where again, when people think of chaos, the way I’ve come to understand it from an Austin Ozmont spar standpoint is it’s organization beyond comprehension. So it’s so organized, you can’t even comprehensive insane from how. Well, it doesn’t have to, but it’s.
But it’s a new order. It’s. It’s a very complex order of order. A new order of order. Because if you look at, if you look at the math behind things like fractals, it’s a new kind of thinking about math. But it is a math. It is a form of math. So it’s another dimension to math. It’s a new dimension about. So it’s like fuzzy logic came out of that thinking. And fuzzy logic control can do a lot of wonderful things technologically, but you have to understand it. It’s not newtonian thinking anymore. It’s now it’s quantum thinking.
Right. You start thinking about things in fuzzier terms, so you can say things like, what if there’s a cat in a box and there’s a pellet that’s going to drop, and if the pellet drops and it bursts, the cat will inhale the gas and it will die. If the pellet doesn’t drop, the cat doesn’t die. Right. Now, until you open the box, the cat is both alive and dead. Sure. It’s in a state. Yeah, yeah. It doesn’t collapse until you observe it. So there, therefore, the observer effect a real thing. And one of the, one of the, the questions I wanted to ask you when it comes to right aspects of like ARg’s, which I’m not 100%, I’ve never really done in ARG, to be up, to be honest with you.
I’ve done rpg’s like Dungeons and Dragons, which are, again, role playing games, which is very similar. Very similar. Kind of similar, but not quite right. Like, I feel like I feels like an arg is a lot bigger. It’s an open world format type of thing, which literally the world. And so with all this said, this idea of the stories, you know, you get into the imaginal, where you start this idea of liminal fiction, we start mixing real world concepts with a story, which, in my opinion, the act of writing not only how, you know, we’re talking about it spreading culture memes, right? Inject it into and it creates culture.
It spreads like a virus. Again, this concept of. I forgot what I was gonna say. But the idea of these stories that get out of control, right? Ang’s hat, it was a story got out of control. People believe it. Has the occult, Joseph, been an argument since the beginning? Is it another. Is it something of value? Or is it all, as I like to say, fake and gay? Or is it a. Is it something much deeper than what we’ve been led to believe? Well, the lessons I took away from monks hat was as follows. Just like magic.
It’s not for everybody. There are people, and I know you’ve seen this before, there are people that clearly should not be involved in magic. They’re not set up for it. They’re not equipped. They’re not ready. They may never be ready, but they’re definitely not. Like, you see people at certain stages and they’re getting into magic, and they lose their mind, and you’re like, well, you weren’t ready, dude. Like, and Israel, regarding one of the chief monkey mucks at the Golden dawn, even went so far as to say you shouldn’t practice magic until you’ve had a good five years of therapy.
Like, you should get yourself together first, and then use the principles of magic to take yourself further. But get that baseline first. Like, do some union therapy and get. Get that baseline of, like, do I understand my unconscious? Do I understand the collective unconscious? Do I understand these principles? Do I have a conversation and a relationship with my shadow? Which, if you don’t have that and you go into magic, that shadow will come out of nowhere and you won’t see it coming, and you’ll take you by surprise. You have to have that all in order first, right? And I know, like, I had to take a break from magic because I, like, I went to a point where I realized that when I was young.
I was like, you know, I was doing this magical ritual, and then all of a sudden, I started to get results, and I wasn’t mature enough yet to grapple with that. And so I had to step back. Luckily, I had older people around me that saw what was going on, and they said, no, no, brother, you need to, like, you need to chill out on this magic stuff and maybe go read some yoon for about a couple years. Go touch some grass. Go touch some grass, homie. And so. And then come back to it, which I did.
And luckily I had elders around that could recognize that I was, like, in peril. However, because of the culture that we live in, most of the, and I say this a lot because I’m in my sixties now. Most of the people my age do not step up and take responsibility as an elder because we don’t live in a tribal society. It’s every man for himself. And so nobody accepts the role of elder because they don’t even know what you’re talking about. But it is a role that humans play and should play and have to play. And the fact that we don’t have people stepping up, people my age stepping up to fill that means that there’s a whole series of generations behind me that don’t have somebody to come to.
And so they get in this situation where they could be going through an initiation, but there’s nobody to tell them that that’s what’s happening. And so they end up in a menstrual institution. They end up, they end up with some psychiatrist filling them full of pills, which is only suppressing the things that they should be dealing with. But they don’t have the people here that have dealt with it to reach out and say, let me help you through this because I know what you’re going through. Let me tell you about when I did it. Oh, I recognize that, like, all these things are not something that we who live in a monastic society.
Everybody’s, like, staying at home, looking at each other through computer screens. Nobody goes out anymore. Nobody, like, has friends, you know, like, I can’t tell you how many young people I meet that tell me that they don’t have friends. And I’m just like, what? They’re like, well, it just, like, nobody goes out. Nobody wants to hang out. Everybody wants to just talk to you on text, you know? And so we are falling apart as a tribe. We don’t have tribes. That’s the thing. We’ve been balkanized and we’ve been atomized into these marketing niches and marketing segments.
And there is no such thing as a tribe anymore. Even me in the eighties, I was a punk rocker. We had a tribe. Like, you could recognize your fellow punk rockers by the way they looked. You’re like, oh, one of us got a mohawk wearing the. Wearing the jean jacket with the arms cut off. You’re like something. But you would recognize them, you know, like, they’re one of us. It’s a tribal thing. One of the last tribal things. That rave that I saw happening, the rave thing, too. Like, it was very tribal. That was kind of a last gasp.
I think it was a, what they call a Hail Mary in football. Like, you just throw the football as far as you can in the end zone and hope to hell somebody catches it. Like, that’s what we were doing subconsciously is we were doing a Hail Mary. We’re like, we need a tribe. And throwing this stuff down the field and going, somebody catch this. You know, unfortunately, sometimes that ball got caught. A lot of times it didn’t. So here we are now in this modernity, as they call it, living in this culture of nobody knows anybody and nobody talks to anybody and nobody helps anybody anymore.
Right? How do we. How can we expect the future generations to rise up and do everything they’re going to need to do? Because, like, with the things going on in the planet right now, we’re going to need them, right? It’s their future, not ours, not. I mean, I’m older than you, so it’s not my future. Like, I’m in the. In the. In the twilight of my years. Like I’m in the last third of my life, 63 last third of my life. Other people who are like 20 who are in the first of your life, like, they’ve got all this thing, all these things to do in front of them.
Some of it’s going to be really hard how they going to do it without people who are elders stepping up and giving them the knowledge to do it. That’s why I said storytelling is the most important thing we do. We transfer knowledge to the future. We tell a story to somebody, and hopefully they tell that story, modify it, and tell that story to the next generation or to somebody else. Even going lateral or just viral, tell it to somebody else who tells it to somebody else. All this stuff that was going on in the eighties and even somewhat the late nineties, the early nineties, those are the early days of the Internet.
So we were using it to tell stories, to facilitate the telling of stories. But I don’t see that happening anymore because it all got grabbed by the corporate interests. The Internet is not the Internet that I started hanging out on in the early nineties. It’s just not. It’s like if you would. If you would have gone around the Internet in the early nineties, the top sites were like that one I showed you, deoxy.org, things like that. It was mostly artists that had web pages online. People that were. Had interesting information, wanted to share imagery, wanted to share fellowship with other humans that they’d never met before.
All these things were happening. You don’t see that happening now. It’s all owned by some corporation. Most of it is commerce based. It’s all transactional. Nothing like, you don’t see people just hanging out much anymore. A little bit on Reddit, but even that’s like, getting taken over, so. But you just don’t see the independent spaces anymore where people gather together like a tribe, like, gather around a common interest and talk to each other and have conversations and figure things out, ask questions, learn from somebody who knows something you don’t, teach somebody something that you know that they don’t.
You just don’t see that happening anymore. I had a conversation with Ronnie Pontiac one day. I was talking to him about a book that I’ve been writing, that I’ve been wanting to write on the homunculus, right, the alchemical homunculus. And I was like, man, you know, I just, I. It’s already been. It’s all been said already. It’s already all been done, guys. I’ve already written about this. And he goes, no, yeah. Every generation is going to write their own version of. Yeah, the information. I was like, the history of alchemy has already been said over and over.
He goes, no, no, but I. It’s your duty that you’re the next generation, so you have to write your version of it. You know, you have to put it into a language that can be understood. Because if I was just kicking around in the desert and I kicked up a clay tablet with cuneiform, I wouldn’t be able to read it, you know? So you have to. You have to translate it into the times, make it relatable on a human level, maybe change the characters to be more, you know, relatable to this generation or to this culture.
Add information that’s come along since that version of the story was written or recorded. Tell your version of the story. That’s the main thing. Your version of the story. Everybody has a version of the story. I tell you a story, if you tell it again. You’re not going to tell the same story I told. It might be very similar, but it won’t be the same story I told you. It’ll be your version of the story, which is, that’s the most important thing, is that you’re telling a version of the story that’s relatable to you and relatable to your immediate tribe of people that you’re telling it to.
Like, these people are more interested in this aspect of the story, and so I’m going to tell it from that perspective. That’s why I say it again and again and again. And people, I, sometimes people just don’t hear me or don’t understand what I’m saying. But storytelling is sacred. It’s very, very important that we preserve it and we continue to do it and not turn it over to the Disney’s of the world, because that’s who owns our legends right now, our corporations like Disney, who don’t have your best interest in heart. Well, what’s your money? Rhetoric used to be something that they taught, and I don’t feel like they really teach that anymore.
As far as, you know, people, like I said, people are catered to. And again, I make content, I make short format contact content, just how I make long format content. And it seems like the short format stuff gets a lot more traction just because it’s quicker, simpler, and people can’t. Like you said, you know, the, the analogy that you use for ceremonial magic where it’s about magic is about understanding yourself, subconscious through and through. And I consider ongs hat an early form of memetic magic. What I call memetic magic, I can. He was constructed as such.
It was. There wasn’t a word at the time. But if I had, if I had to put a word on it now, I’d call it a hyper sigil. I consider myself a memetic magician, and I have a hyper sigil. It’s my comic book, and I can relate to you 100%. And when you say that, things become overwhelming, the synchronicities, you start to have a synchronicity overload, and you can only take so many synchronicities before you go, wait a minute. Either. Either I’m going crazy, or. How many times is something, can you call something a coincidence? How many times could you possibly call something as a coincidence be before you, you know, you can’t just ignore it over and over and over again.
Right, right. And that’s when you start to. Again, you start to get overwhelmed with whatever is going on, it feels like, did you. Because me, when I. When I create content and I feel like with so many people interacting with it every single day, do you, have you felt any heightened sense of synchronicities because of the stuff that you put out there? Did you feel the Jeremy thing, weird with Aung’s hat after you put it out into the Ethereum people are interacting with? Absolutely. Like, and other people did as well. Like, people would. Would download it from, like, dimitriside or later, I put up a website and people would interact with the content, and then they would contact me and say, you know, I’m reading this thing that you put out.
And it’s like I’m having, like, this overwhelming flurry of synchronicities, like, freaking me out, man. And, you know, like, it did me too, in the beginning, but then I sat down, and it probably helped that I was a ritual magician and had done rituals that were successful and had, you know, reactions to them. And I sat down and I said, why did you do this to begin with, Joe? And it was because I wanted to see if the universe was responsive. Was I, was I swimming in the universe? And could I poke it? And could it poke me back? And so you’re getting what you asked for, so stop freaking out, dude.
This is what you wanted, right? Yeah. And so luckily, because of my experience with ritual magic and because I seen and heard things and felt things working with magic, that I said, okay, this is what I wanted, so I got it. So stop complaining. This is what you wanted. So I didn’t freak out as much, but other people who didn’t know, who didn’t have the background that I had and weren’t prepared for, like I said, they weren’t prepared for it. And so I have literally told people this before. I’ve said to people, put my stuff down and don’t interact with it anymore until you take some time and think this through and maybe don’t come back at all.
And I’m not being exclusive. I’m not being howdy and snotty and snooty. I’m just saying, you know, think. Think about yourself here. Like. Like, is this making you feel uncomfortable? Why? Like, spend some time with that. Why is this making you uncomfortable? Because I don’t understand it. Then you need to back up and you, like, you need to go learn some things or just leave it alone. It’s not for everybody. I had, I had a conversation with a friend of mine who, who was an alchemist, modern day alchemist, and he said something to me, that really stood out to me because he was saying, well, a lot of these alchemists.
Right. Alchemy is an interdimensional discipline. It’s it’s a way of life. It’s a spiritual thing as well as a practical thing. And maybe perhaps in contemplation, these. And this is how Carl Jung also got involved in alchemy as well, because he believed that what these alchemists were seeing was what he could put a name to with his whole psychological aspect of it. But my buddy said, what if these alchemists in contemplation were hallucinating all these things that they were writing, right. That they were. That they were drawing? And that falls in line with. Because I actually just did a short on the metaphase typewriter.
And. Right. Herbert was basing his ideas off of Harris Walker, where they looked at consciousness as a. As a set of hidden variables in a quantum mechanical system. And essentially that the mind is a quantum effect that can affect reality in some sort of way. From almost like a third person type of thing, you know, from the outside, it could affect it. Yeah. And it feels like when you mix in the aspect of letterism, literature, stories, books, whatever you want to call it, it amplifies that effect. Yep. I noticed this too. So a couple of things.
I consider all art magic and all magic art. It’s the same thing. It comes from the same place. When I create, I use magical principles to create. I make sure that I get out of the way. I get my ego out of the way. And so I call all my works received works. And some people get that, and some people think I’m joking. I’m not. I put myself in states of not being able to get in the way and filter what’s coming through. It’s coming from somewhere else. I really think that consciousness is coming through me.
You, the antenna and the signal comes from where? I don’t know. And I’m, in a lot of ways, I don’t need to know, and I don’t want to know because I learned that trying to unpack these things kind of diminishes the effect it has. So if you start to get too rational with, like, where does art come from? What is this? What is this conversation I’m having in my head? If you start questioning that all the time and trying to unpack it and deconstruct it and do all these things to it, it’ll go away, because it doesn’t want to have that conversation with you.
It wants you to shut up. And listen, which I’m more than happy to do, because once I get in the phase, you know, like, athletes call it the zone. Once I get in the zone, and then the conversation is flowing, it literally flows. Like, a friend of mine, when I was writing the first book in the liminal trilogy called the liminal cycle, he was watching me. I was writing on Google Docs, and he was logged in. I didn’t know it, but he was logged in. He was watching me write. And then later he asked me, he said, so were you transcribing? I said, no.
Why? He’s like, because you weren’t pausing. I’m like, oh, dude, don’t freak out. But I was taking dictation. He’s like, well, who was dictating? Who was dictating? I’m like, the character was dictating in my head what I’m supposed to write. And I was just trying to take it down as fast as I can. And he just looked at me really weird. He said, he’s a guy that writes for Hollywood. And he was like, what are you talking about? You know? And I’m like, that’s how. That’s my process, dude. That’s how I have to do it, because otherwise it feels cheap and fake.
And so I write something that feels cheap and fake, I’m gonna throw it away. I’m not gonna. I’m not gonna keep it. It’s only when I get in that zone. And the only time I get in that zone is when I let the conversation happen. And by what letting the conversation happen happening. I feel like what I’m doing is I’m receiving a transmission from somewhere else. I don’t have to wonder about where it’s coming from. I don’t need to question that. I knew in the days when I used to do enochian magic, I used to always try to question the entity I was talking to.
It would always avoid answering me directly because it didn’t want to have that conversation. Right? Because when you have that conversation, you kill the conversation, you kill the. You kill the connection. It’s like, now I’m getting into my left brain and doing all this left brain stuff, and that’s not where it’s coming from. It’s coming through your right brain, through your creative process, through your intuition. That’s where it’s coming through. I call it the shadows at the edge of the campfire. Right. The things that you can. Yeah, great. That’s. That’s a great analogy, but you can’t see it.
And also, I did an episode recently on the whole Drake and kind of Kendrick Lamar beef. And I hypothesized that some ghost writers are actual ghosts that are maybe, perhaps the ones that have been sacrificed for the cause. These things that are on the other side that are being, again, a beamed down to these artists, which are vessels, essentially, which are assets of the machine. And. Yeah, so ghost riders sometimes are actual ghosts. And that’s why I. I wanted to. My. My book, I. I created a. I have an occultist Monday, which is like a little zine type of thing.
It was actually inspired by Manley P. Hall’s all seeing eye journals that he had published in the horizon from the early twenties, I believe, to the nineties. And I recently did a homunculus edition, which I ended up writing 88 pages material. And I did the, you know, CoTUs Mondi Homunculus edition. It’s not out yet, but will be soon. And again, I say my sources. It’s. It’s a work of. It’s nonfiction, it’s actual research. And I’ve wanted to maybe ditch that. That aspect of it and just go liminal fiction and. And tell the story of the homunculus from.
Yeah. Perspective, that I can have that. That freedom, because when. When you’re in that area, you have a freedom. And again, it comes into, you know, Corbin’s mundus. Imagine, Alice, you let whatever is gonna come out, come out from this other area that exists on its own. Yes. Sometimes you’re able to tap into which, allegedly, scrying is one of the technologies you’re able to use to extract information from this other realm. Mm hmm. You know, so I’ve been thinking one of the many, but, yeah, that. I mean, you can. That’s. To me, that’s the most valuable information, is that I get that way.
So the liminal trilogy is all stuff that I wrote in states of otherness by putting myself. Getting myself out of the way, letting something else talk through me. And I’ve had multiple people contact me after reading one or several of the books and tell me that it did strange but wonderful, eventually wonderful things to them, that they had a spiritual experience just by reading these three books. And that, to me, is the most gratifying thing I could ever hear, because what I tried to do is I tried to take the essence of an initiation and package it into words and make them the kind of words that would tickle the collective unconscious of anybody who interacted with it.
And so it would bring forward archetypes in your mind. And so that was what the intention was. And just, like, without ever saying that publicly. Now I’ve said it publicly, but I never said it publicly before. And people came to me and said that’s what it did for them, and I said, absolutely great. That was the intention, but I would never say that’s the intention, because it kind of ruins it. Right. Um, it’s been out for. The trilogy has been out for a long time. For a while now. So, like, I don’t feel like I’m reading anything, but people have reported, like, when I read that the.
The second book of the trilogy, when I read the first, it’s always a different book that does it for. And, too, because each book is very different than the other, and it’s written for as a different character. So I wrote book one under a pseudonym, book two under a different pseudonymous, and book three under my own name. So I did such because I was taking on, um, those Personas when I wrote. I wrote as that person, and that person, to me, was very real. They were speaking to me, and I was writing down what they were telling me.
They were telling me they. Their story. It’s like I was going through the Illuminati trilogy. It’s kind of overwhelming, right? I mean, the. Like, the way that. Yeah, it overwhelms the sentinel. You got a styga. You got to stop and step away and go, what. What’s going on? Because, again, it kind of does. That has that effect on you. And it goes back to Burrows, where the cut up technique is meant to, what, transport your consciousness somewhere else. Mm hmm. And he had the. I mean, I know he was a heroin addict and a whole bunch of other stuff, but the idea of getting high through reading.
Yeah. Getting high through. Because it puts you in a trance when you’re. When you’re trying to get through, and you’re just. And it can be kind of jarring to the senses as you’re. As you go in there. And you got to go, I got to reread that again, or I wasn’t even paying attention. Just goes straight over your head. But there’s something special about that. I think that there’s something special to writing literature. I’ve always said this, and the Bible is a portal, and that’s why even. Right. Speaking of the Rosicrucians, the idea of meditating on the first couple verses of John, where they were able to enter the text and interact with the biblical figures in that.
On that other side. Yeah. That’s amazing. That’s something that we all can do. It’s just that we’ve been so trained to believe that that’s. That the imaginal realm is not real, according to, you know, science. And there’s nothing wrong with science. Just like, don’t overdo it, man. You can’t discard the spiritual. You just can’t. And science wants us to discard the spiritual, you know, ever since the age of reason came upon us. And it’s discarding one half of humanity, like one half of the human experience. It’s like the irrational is important. We have to remember that.
So here’s a good example. I was having a conversation with a friend years ago who told me this story about the ritual of the crossing of the abyss. And he goes on. He was going on and on about this person went crazy when they did crossing of the abyss. That person went crazy when they did the crossing of the Bis. And I just looked at him, I said, but isn’t that the point? It’s like you want to go crazy, then come back. Because if you look at the shamanic traditions as we know them, if you look at the petroglyphs that represent the shamanic tradition, the shaman goes out and is represented as being dismembered.
And that’s not literal. You don’t go out and, like, your arms and legs and head are not torn off, but you, your being is. Is torn apart, and that’s what you want to happen. Like, if that doesn’t happen, failed. You failed your initiation. So that has to happen first. And if you don’t put yourself back together, you failed. You failed your initiation. So the crossing of the abyss is just a shamanic initiation. You go, you’re dismembered, you put yourself back together in a new way, you come back as a new person. Success. The reason so many people fail is they weren’t prepared, or they don’t have an elder around to talk to you before to tell them that.
It’s like there’s so many people, they get throat, they get thrust into an accidental initiation, and they don’t know what’s happening, and they. And they. What’s the first thing they do? They call a psychiatrist, they call a medical doctor, and they say, I need some drugs to suppress this thing I’m going through. No, you don’t. You need to go through it. You need some help. You need some. You need a roadmap. You know, you need to talk to somebody who’s been through it before, but you don’t need to suppress it. And that’s the problem. Is we got all these people walking around that are victims of failed initiations who are then suppressing it instead of working through it.
They’re suppressing it with drugs so they don’t have to feel or think about it. It doesn’t go away, dude. It’s still there in your subconscious. It’s going to come back. So get on top of it. Like, learn to face it, learn to deal with it. But again, if you don’t have the tools, if you’ve never been trained properly, then you don’t have the tools. You don’t know what to do. And so we are a generation of failed initiations because my generation and a few before, like, I don’t think my parents generation handled this well either. Did not step up.
And we’re not the elders that we’re supposed to have in society. Like, you’re supposed to have elders and we don’t have them. In fact, this modern society we live right now, I’m really learning this as I get older, is so disrespectful of elders. It’s unbelievable. It’s like the entire culture is geared towards youth and youth culture, and there’s nothing wrong with youth and youth culture, but it can’t just be that. Like, if you have elders, they get discarded, then the elders discard you, and that’s where we are. Like, we’ve all discarded each other. Yeah, you’re. You’re discarding the wisdom.
I mean, that’s the. The knowledge, right? That sage archetype. Right? Like the. Yeah. And we’re. And we, as elders are discarding the youth, which we get as much from teaching the youth as they get it from us teaching them. Yeah, like, it’s a. It’s a two way street. Like, we’re given energy and hope. All these things from teaching youth. Like, these are the things that we get out of it, and then the youth get out wisdom, like, yeah. Oh, I’ve done that before. Let me show you how to do that. Let me show you how to tie your tie.
Let me, like, all the things that we can, that we can pass on, whatever they are, and then we’re reminded, like, oh, I remember that. Like, I remember being like that. I remember thinking that. I remember feeling like that. It’s like it’s good for us, too, because it reminds us of who we are, where we came from, what we are, which is humans. And we just so often forget about this because we are locked in this weird technological madhouse. There’s no other way to put it. That’s all about if you have feelings, take drugs, you know, and whether they be illicit drugs that you buy off the street or the, the legal drugs that you get through a therapist, still the same thing.
It’s like you’re tamping down feelings. You’re, you’re avoiding thinking about something and not dealing with stuff today when you should be dealing with it. And that’s, it’s really all, it’s like everything just surrounds that. Like, you know, like somebody said something to me a couple years ago. I’d never heard the term before, but, like, it really made sense to me. They called it retail therapy. I’m like, what’s that? It’s like you go out and buy things so you don’t have to think about life. I’m like, wow, Amazon capitalizes on that. Yeah, and I lived in LA at the time, so, like, I saw people doing that in Beverly Hills.
I’m like, oh, that’s what they’re doing. Like, with all those bags that they’re walking around with, they’re doing retail therapy. Yeah, no, and I agree with you. I think that it is a symbiotic relationship. I think that we both benefit. And I mean, I like to, to learn from people that are usually in a better position or have the, how I said that wisdom of the experience. Because a lot of life, a lot of reality, right? We get into the phenomenology of it where it’s the lived experience. You can’t describe something unless you’ve experienced it. And I think that goes for initiation, that goes for the occult, that goes for literally anything in, in life.
It doesn’t have to be a color esoteric. It can be anything in life. Like, how does it feel to ride a roller coaster? Well, I can’t describe it to you. You got to kind of sort of strap in and ride the roller coaster and see how. Let me go ride the roller coaster with you. Let me take. Let me take you on the roller coaster. Exactly. Exactly. So, no, you’re saying a lot of important things. And Joseph, I, you know, you seem like a guy who’s pretty open minded. You seem to be into, you know, everything.
I’m into the occult. Yes, or magic. Give us something, Joseph. Is on’s hat real? Was it real, Joseph? What? Was it a real thing? Of course. It was just like the liminal trilogy is real. It’s all real. On some level, it’s, it’s real. If, if you, if people can read the story and have. Excuse me. And have high level synchronicities from reading a story. It’s real if people can. And this is the great thing about it, is, since the story came out, things that I thought were fictional turned out to be real, which I thought was amazing, right? Like, I thought this was fiction.
And then it turned out to be like, it came through as a transmission, apparently, but it was something that really did happen. Or by writing about it, maybe that reality was created. And now, as we know it, it’s real. And it’s always been real in this reality. You know, it’s like. It’s like the Mandela effect. It’s like. No, no. It’s always said that. It’s always been that. It’s like. Yeah, of course reality is fluid, right? It can be. It can be shaped and changed. That’s what magic is all about. It’s about changing reality, hopefully for the better.
I think what people call black magic is people trying to change it now for the better. But that be that as it may, reality is malleable. It’s like putty. It’s like you can change it if you have enough time and effort and enough, even enough minds to put on it. So there’s been all kinds of experiments that were done where lots of people focusing on something has an effect on that thing occurring or not occurring. It’s been proven time and time again. There was a project in Princeton where they showed that, in fact, there’s a mobile application that capitalized on the mathematics behind this.
Randonautica does this. But there are things that you can do where you can pinpoint their circle areas that, say, probability of something weird and paranormal happening here or something just out of the ordinary happening here, is very probable. And then you focus on that area, and things will happen. Very strange things will happen. The math that they use in Randonautica came from this project at Princeton years ago. And I knew the guy that ran the project, Artie Nelson, and he had these devices that he would send out to people. I had one, and you put it on your computer, and it was basically a random number generator, a true random number generator.
And then it would monitor, like, the random numbers, and every once in a while, you get a sequence of numbers that came up that didn’t look random. And then you would say, did something happen at this time in this place? And then you would collate, be like, oh, something did happen. So they saw weird spikes in these devices happen right before the planes hit the towers at 911. Whoa. Those kind of things. So you can’t just discard it as being. Is this random stuff no, no, no, no. I mean, even randonautica, like, they, they did it.
They generated something, and they, they went to the point and what they. That one couple. And I think they were. I can’t remember where they were, but they. But they found the suitcase, and the suitcase had the body. Yeah. Of somebody who had been killed and dumped by a serial killer. They were kidding around on how it would have been funny if they would have found a body and then. Body. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So these things happen. We can’t really question exactly how they happen. We don’t even know why they happen, but we know they happen.
So we should pay attention to the fact that they happen, because this is the same kind of function that the shamans used to tap into where they would sit up in a hill somewhere, like in a cave. And then after three days of focusing on this one little point on the cave wall, they’d come out and say, there’s gonna be bighorn sheep right over there tomorrow. Let’s be there so we can eat. Or. They didn’t even draw it on the wall. Draw it on the wall. Yeah. And manifest it. Yeah, yeah. So we know, like, we know that these things occur.
We know that this stuff is real. We know that it, like, it’s not completely predictable. But I it gives us a clue. It gives us a hint. So we can maybe go in the right direction. It’s not going to. It’s not going to land on your lap. Not always. Every once in a while. But mostly, it’s something vague that you have to kind of follow. Like, oh, okay. It says a hill and sheep. Okay, where’s that? What? That. What’s that hill look like? And you kind of figure it out. You’re not going to get a telegram.
You know, sometimes they dm you, Joseph. But sometimes, like it. Yeah, mostly not. But, like, every once in a while, it’s like, dead on, dude. It’s like, whoa, what the hell? You know? And, and so when I was playing with the, the meta machine to cut up stuff, I was getting some dead on stuff, like, really dense dead on stuff, and it was happening like, four or five times a day, every day. And I’m like, okay, I need to take a break. I need a breather, because, like, this is getting to be a bit much. And, you know, like, I had to start questioning, like, am I.
Am I doing this? Am I my projecting this? Is it really not, is it not as significant as I think it is? Et cetera? You know, like, you start questioning your sanity a little bit. And reality. And reality. And then you back up and then you look at it, you go again, like I said. And then I just had to have a talk with myself. Like, what were you trying to achieve, dude, you want. You wanted this. This is what you wanted. Stop questioning the fact that you’re having the success that you tried to have with this process and just ride the process and see where it takes you.
That’s the main thing. Joseph, I’ve had. I’ve had a great time today. I loved our conversation, everywhere it went. I want to have you back on after I read the liminal trilogy. Do you have any other works coming out anytime soon? Yeah, so next year I’m working right now on something that you’ll like. It’s called Aung’s hat complete. And it’s the history of the entire project. What was I doing? How was I doing it? And what was I trying to achieve behind the scenes? Behind the scenes. Like all the things about cut ups and infinite games and like, all that stuff.
All the stuff that went into it. Because if I. If I sit down and try to tell somebody in an interview, it’s too much. I can’t just like. Because I’ll start like going all over the place and like kind of lose my. Lose my way. So I just sat down methodically said, and then I did this. And why did I do this? This was. This was the thing that was influencing me. And this was what I was trying to achieve. So I’m trying to be methodical and kind of scientific about it. But I’m also trying to be entertaining.
So I’m talking about how did this all get started? Yeah, it all got started with me looking for the Vallis trilogy back in the mid eighties when it was still out of print. And that was fun because it was hard to find. Like people had heard of Philip K. Dick. Those. Those books changed my life because Blade Runner was out. But nobody knew Valis backdeze back then. It was like, what, ballast? What? So I was like going through used bookstores, digging through piles of used books and boxes. And I had weird experiences, like, as soon as I read, even before I read it, trying to find it, I had weird experiences.
Like strange angels appeared. We’ll put it that well, I mean, people. But like, they were strange angels in the form of people that appeared in at the right time with the right things and the right directions. So I’m like, okay, I’m on the something here. Something wants me to find this book or these books. Because it is a trilogy. Yeah. Yeah, I know that. Definitely getting into Valis and Philip K. Dick’s territory, that changed my perspective on a lot of things. And I know we’ve talked about a lot today. Joseph, it’s been a great conversation. Did you have any closing thoughts or any words of advice for anyone listening? Right, as we conclude this conversation here, any words of wisdom, if you will, or anything else that you want to add on top of everything that we’ve talked about today, which has been great, if I had advice to somebody who’s younger or even somebody older, I would say, take some time, disconnect from the Internet, and, I mean, maybe for two weeks, go somewhere in nature, sit down, shut up, and listen, because the land is speaking, and you will hear it if you’ll just shut up long enough to hear it.
Turn off the chattering monkey in the head, which takes a while. I understand. That’s why you get rid of the cell phone. You dish the cell phone. You unplug the computer. You try to leave the house. If you can, pitch a tent, go far away so you don’t see the lights of civilization or hear the noise of civilization anymore. Sit with the land, try to do it for a week or two and just really listen. And when you come back, you’ll see a world of difference in yourself. Just coming back, you’ll be like, whoa, what is this? What am I? What am I? Re entering here.
It’s like re entering the atmosphere, you know, like, I’ve been in space, and now I’m coming in, and I’m burning up. It’s like, you check it out. You’re like, oh, man. Like, is it always this noisy? Is it always there? Always this much chatter going on? Yeah, there is. And that’s why you can’t hear the land. So make sure you make time to listen to the land, because the land is going to have many things to tell you that you want to hear. And you talk about meeting the fae. That’s where you’re going to do it, man.
Out there, not here, not in the midst of all this. Yeah, I’ve talked about before of disconnecting my, my router and feeling it turn off you right. You know, it’s like, I lived in Santa Cruz in 1989 when the Loma Prieta earthquake happened, and so it knocked everything out. Like power, water, you name it, it was gone. It’s tranquility. And. And I could hear the silence. I know that sounds weird, but I could hear the silence. Yeah, it’s a different type of piece. I didn’t know. It was always. There was always this low hum going on all the time.
But there is, like, one of my favorite times of the day is pre sunrise. I get up and I do my meditations and my rituals. I do pre sunrise because everybody’s still asleep and so quiet. You can hear the land. And do you offer guides? Did I hear that correctly on one of the interviews you did? Do you offer guides for people going off grid? Is that a thing I do? I take people on vigils. So if you want to, and you’re in the area and you want to do this, I will take you on a five day journey in the woods.
You will sit in the woods by yourself with water and a tarp, and that’s it. No food, just water for four days. I will be close enough that if something happens, you can call out or you can come and we will take care of you. There will be if you can make it through the four days or even three, and then you come, we will set you down, feed you, give you some water, tell you to stop telling us about your experience because it’s not time for you to tell us or maybe ever, and just sit with your experience and, like, help you re enter, help you with the reentry, get you back up to speed, and then, like, you know, I tell everybody, don’t tell me or anybody else your experience for at least a couple of days.
Like, go digest it and think about it and then come tell somebody or don’t. Like, most people decide they don’t want to after they think about it, when they first come out of the woods, they’re like, I gotta. They want to tell somebody, right? And it’s like, no, dude, you’re just reacting to the fact that you haven’t spoken for four days or heard anybody speak for four days, so stop freaking out. Like, chill. You can sit on this for a couple days and then like, you know, if most people, like, four days later, they’re like, nah, I don’t wanna tell anybody.
It was just for me. You got it? It was just for you. You got it. And other people like, well, I feel like I want to tell somebody. Like, okay, we’re here for you. We’ll listen to you and they’ll tell us. They’re like, okay, cool, cool, cool. I’m not going to tell you what it means. That’s for you, for you to decide, but you needed to tell somebody. I’m here for you. I’m listening. That’s all I’m doing, though. I’m not going to give you feedback. I’m just going to listen. I’m going to be there to make sure you don’t die.
That’s why I’m there. Yeah. Here’s like, here in Florida, everything’s trying to eat you all the time. In the, in the swamps here in Florida, every, everywhere there’s something trying to eat you. Like, we have, we have bears here, we have mountain lions here. Like, we have things up here in the woods, too. It’s like there’s, there’s always something that wants to eat you no matter where you are. So know that. Yeah. And so I do take people, you know, if people contact me, I usually do it. I try to do it in the fall because summer is too hot.
Forest fires are a problem now. That’s the world we live in now. So I take people in the fall. It’s just more pleasant and. Yeah, that’s it. That’s like, I will take you out and I will set you in a good place and I will check in on you from time to time, but you won’t know I’m checking in on you. And for those that are in see me, that are interested in that, they can find you through your website. Can you repeat your website for us one more time, Joseph? And links will be in the description.
Joseph, I really enjoyed this. Like I said, I’ll have you back on once I do read the, the liminal trilogy. And when can we expect that ongs hat complete to come out? I’m shooting for spring, late winter or spring of next year. Awesome. I’ll keep an eye out for that. So I’ve already got the, I’ve got the rough draft written and now I’m gonna, now I’m gonna. I do this. I will spend months just combing back through it and coming back through it and coming through. So, you know, it’s mostly. But, but the rough draft is written, so I know I’m gonna do it.
Awesome. We’ll stay in touch and I’d like to have you on before then, but definitely when that comes out, I’ll check it out and we can revisit Aung’s hat. This was an interesting episode, Joseph. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and talk to me today and entertain all the, the weirdness and all these ideas. Thanks for having me. And as always, everyone, make sure to check out the show on social media at the Juana Juan podcast tjdeh ojp.com. make sure to check out Joseph’s work as well links will be down in the description.
Sure. Check me out on patreon patreon.com, the 101 podcast and all that good stuff. And as always, everyone catch you on the other side. Hopefully not on earth. Be by now.
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