Carlos Lehder: Partner to Pablo Escobar and The King of Smugglers (Rare Sitdown)

➡ The text is about Carlos Lehder, a former drug dealer who worked with Pablo Escobar and smuggled cocaine into the United States. He owned an island in the Bahamas from where he operated his drug business. After a confrontation with a business associate, he was turned in to the police and DEA, leading to his arrest and subsequent 33-year prison sentence. Despite his past, Carlos claims to have no guilt, having survived multiple attempts on his life, and now sees his story as one of crime, punishment, and eventual redemption.
➡ The text is about a man named Carlos who was a successful criminal smuggler, particularly in the cocaine trade. He was part of what was known as the Medellin Cartel, but he clarifies that it wasn’t a unified organization, but rather a group of competing cocaine exporters. Carlos was able to outsmart his competition and the government by using various transportation methods and even owning a private island in the Bahamas for smuggling. Despite the risks and challenges, he managed to survive and thrive in this dangerous business.
➡ The text is a narrative of a former drug trafficker who faced immense pressure to retire from his family and friends, but was too addicted to the thrill of his criminal activities. Despite the growth and success of his organization, he faced constant challenges from law enforcement and eventually was sentenced to a long prison term. He spent 33 years in prison, where he worked as a cook and was eventually released in 2020. He now warns against drug trafficking, stating that with today’s advanced law enforcement technology, it’s not worth the risk.
➡ The speaker, a former criminal, discusses the pressures and dangers of living a life of crime. He talks about his past wealth, which at its peak was close to $100 million, and the expenses that came with maintaining his criminal operations. He also mentions the necessity of self-defense in his line of work, and his lack of guilt over actions taken for survival. Lastly, he expresses his admiration for American culture and music, symbolized by a statue of John Lennon he had commissioned.
➡ Carlos, a former associate of Pablo Escobar, discusses his past life in the narcotics business, his arrest, and extradition to the United States. He spent years in solitary confinement, which he describes as a form of torture. Despite his past, Carlos has found peace and tranquility in his later years, attributing his survival to his faith and mental strength. He now lives a quiet life in Colombia, free of charges and enjoying simple pleasures like cooking and spending time with family.
➡ The text is a conversation between two people, discussing a historical drug case in the United States that had significant importance for the government. The speaker, who was involved in the case, shares his experiences and expresses remorse for his past actions. He also invites the listener to visit him in Colombia and talks about a community he’s creating for sharing untold stories and experiences.

I was able to achieve close to $100 million. I had gigantic expenses. Had to keep an island with cetera farms. Colombia had farms with airplanes, hangars, people working security, people working in other things, paying the police, paying some politicians. Same thing in the Bahamas. The majority of the narcos had Mexico as a place to come in with the king to the United States. I managed to open up an island in the Bahamas and I was able to acquire the island. And that’s how I was flying in my cocaine into the United States through my private island in the Bahamas.

For several years we had mainly a business relationship. He was not a sociable person and my family never met his family. But we were just business business. And eventually we had a confrontation and he turned me in to the local police and dea. But on the other hand, the way things were, I dare say that I was lucky that I didn’t end up in the morgue. In my conscience, I don’t have any guilty feelings of having been able to defend myself successfully against people that were trying to kill me or kidnap me. One time I was kidnapped, I was shot and I was able to flee.

I escaped the kidnappers. One person that tried to kill me when assassin, he had murdered 73 people. And he kept on saying, now he’s going to accomplish number 74. Foreign welcome to another sit down with Michael Francis. Hope everybody is doing well. All is very good, very blessed on this end, my friends. And as always, I give all the praise, honor, glory and thanksgiving to our God for that. You know, we’ve had some really interesting guests, I would say on this podcast in my sit down today should be one of the most interesting fellow by the name of Carlos Leader.

I’m sure many of you know his name. Carlos at one time was one of the biggest drug dealers, smugglers of cocaine into the United States in the world. You know, he was, he worked with Pablo Escobar for quite some time. He was originally, or eventually I should say extradited to the United States. The DEA was all over him for many years and he went to trial here in this country, got convicted and ended up doing about 33 years in prison. He’s 75 years old right now, but a fascinating story. He wrote a tremendous book which we’re going to talk about and of course in the Netflix series Net Narcos, I’m sure you’ve seen him, Carlos Leader, who is mentioned quite often in that series.

So a fascinating story, people. And you know, it’s amazing that, you know, people can at some point in Time turn their life around. I know what you’re saying. Come on, Michael. He was a drug dealer. And, you know, millions of lives might have been affected by what he did in this country. I get it. But we’re going to talk about it. Maybe you’ll get some insight into what Carlos was really all about and what he was thinking at that time. Look, the drug business in Colombia was big. And, you know, to give you an understanding of why people got involved in it, Carlos is going to tell you that.

So it’s a fascinating interview. I think you’re really going to enjoy it. So without any further hesitation, Carlos. Later. Carlos, I got to ask you this right off the bat. How does it feel to be out of prison, to be free after serving 33 years and much of it, all of it, I would think, in maximum security. And quite, quite a lot of that time you served in solitary. How did it feel the first day that you were released? You know. You know, I know how I felt, and I didn’t do as much time as you did in solitary.

But how did it feel? Not too many humans go through that experience. I wish nobody has to go through that experience. But the wonderful thing is that I receive a second chance because my story is Story of Crime and punishment in 2020. And one of the things that happens is at the end of the story, I managed to survive, and I repented. I was rehabilitated by Washington U.S. attorneys, and I was granted my freedom. And obviously that my German citizenship helped a lot because the German government, when I fulfilled the 33 years of daily confinement in the United States, the German government helped me speed up the process to return to Germany.

And I did. And, Carlos, let me ask you. You grew up in New York, right? Michael? I had the fortune of traveled to New York. My mother gave me the ticket because I quit school in Colombia, and I went when I was 15 years old, I went to New York City. Yes. And whereabouts in New York? Was it in Manhattan? No. I was located in Jackson High Queensland by Roosevelt Avenue, and there was a small community of Colombians, Colombian immigrants, and there was just a few Colombian restaurants. So I managed to gather with them, and I began to work and fulfill my dream, which was the American dream.

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It’s an offer that you shouldn’t refuse. Well, Carl, let me ask you this, and I’m getting right to these kind of questions because I know, you know, my viewers have also been pretty excited about the fact that you came on, coming on, you know, one time. You and I have some. We have similarities in our background. Let’s say, you know, we grew up a certain way at one time. Carlos, I think you were considered one of the richest men in the world. How does it feel? And I know how I felt. The experience that I had.

How does it feel being have. Having that kind of wealth? How did, how did it feel? What did. Was it something that was so satisfying to you? How did it feel to you at that point? It was in many ways a brand new experience because from working in restaurants like six, seven years before working in restaurants in New York, to be able to make $1 million every now and then and like that was. Was very satisfactory. However, in like each fingerprint in their hands is different. I was more thrilled by the game. Allow me. I did challenge the DEA, the Drug Enforcement Administration for 12 years, in the ocean, in the air, international waters, Colombia, United States, California.

And at the end of the game, I end up with lots of money, like you suggest. But money wasn’t particularly. And allow me, I. I’m a humble person. After 33 years in prison, I learned many lessons from life. But if I dare say that, that it doesn’t matter when and I heard you went through the same or similar experiences. It doesn’t matter how much successes transitorily a cocaine smuggler gets. But eventually, eventually the game will be over. Because today’s technology, with law enforcement, also the very fact that I experience fear and I apply fear to my contenders and enemies.

But through the years, I learned the lesson that every time I did a cocaine transaction, I risked my freedom, my health, because treasures, competition can kill a person. And that’s one of the reasons, and I explain in my book, and that’s what I decide, one of the reasons why I decide to write my biography, which is my testimony, my life testimony, that my personal experience, what I. What it felt like. And every time I made a transaction, I also was very studious, how that transaction was going to take place. That put me a little bit ahead of my competition.

I was a perfectionist, and I was totally wrong. I was responsible. I was a criminal smuggler. But when I came to perform, I did the best the possible a transactions. Most of the risk and options were looked upon very carefully, and I managed to survive and many didn’t. Well, Carlos, that’s. I think we know people don’t understand that’s a difficult business that you were in. And to survive and to, you know, have the success that you had wasn’t easy. There’s a lot of competition. I. I know you constantly had to be on your guard from your competitors as well as from the government, you know, in both Colombia and here in the United States.

You know, you’re obviously a very intelligent guy, a very resourceful guy, no question about it, to get at the top of the pyramid, so to speak, in that business, you know, I understand it. I don’t know if many people understand just daily what you had to go through, you know, both to survive and to have the success that you had. Can you describe, like, what was a day in the life of Carlos later? At that time, many of the successes in, for me as a small dealer constituted transportation through speedboats, airplanes, helicopters, and my partners, my American partners.

I learned a great deal from them. And had I not had them, I could have never achieved the economic successes I dare say that regarding the word Medellin cartel, I must explain that there is too much literature totally presenting a misconception of what the Medellin cartel was. Actually. The DEA and the US attorneys in Washington were the ones that put that title to the smugglers. Cocaine smugglers from Medellin City and in Medellin when, when I was there, I was 19 years old. I began as a smuggler and I will drive to Bolivia through Peru and Ecuador to bring cocaine to Colombia by, by my pickup quirk.

I explained that in the book. But the issue with the cartel is that many thousands literally of people in Medellin wanted to ship small amount of kilos of cocaine to their customers that wanted the cocaine in United States paying top dollar. But there was no safe, more or less safe, never guaranteed transportation. So some of us, like myself, Pablo Escobar Rodriguez Gachalias, the Mexican Rafiko Alonso Cardenas Jorge. We were a group that began to open like export office individually, not together, but individually. And eventually there was 26 cocaine export offices in Medellin. So what happens with the title Medellin Cartel is that the Washington U.S.

attorneys decide to, to name like conglomerate. It was never conglomerate of smugglers, the Medellin Cartel. But they sometimes you see in movies in Hollywood and they portray like we were like a mafia type of organization with, with a one head and hierarchies and homogeneous and united and, and sworn to Regency and whatever else. That never absolutely happens. These 26 export offices or houses or narcos were compete. We were competing with each other. And the main, the majority of the narcos had Mexico as a, as a place to come in with the cocaine to United States. I managed to open up an island in the Bahamas and I was able to acquire the island.

And that’s how I was flying in my cocaine into the United States through my private island in the Bahamas. And that was Norman K. Right. That was Norman’s Cay that eventually was confiscated by the government and sold for $41 million to a hotel owner that is making a paradise of that island. Yes. And you actually own that island, right, Carlos? About 75% of the island was owned by the hotel. So what I did, I purchased the hotel, the private island that was the, the, the, the, the gate that was the, the powerful thing. It was. He had no authorities, no police or customs.

So that opened up. And another situation that is fascinating because as I said, is, is, is a crime and punishment story of the 20th century. What happens too was that when I arrived in the Bahamas being young and wealthy, the the British government had just turned over to the. To the African Bahamian population, the islands themselves. They became the government. The British left the Bahamas and the new government was the Prime Minister Lyndon Pind. So they were for the first time in their entire life they were free, independent pilot and they decide to be more open about tourism.

That was. That enticed me to that. That it was a very positive in my search for a place like a Hong Kong, my Hong Kong island where I can see China or the empire of United States in front of me, which make it more feasible and. And in without that I could easily smuggle cocaine into Florida. Yes, my friends, you may not have heard, but I now have a wine branded in my name. Franzi’s Wine. I’m very proud of it. It comes from the world’s first vineyards. We have alcoholic wine and non alcoholic wine. Several varieties, fruit varieties.

You’re going to love it. Different than anywhere you’ve ever tasted before. So enjoy this with your friends. Go to franz easewine.com and offer you shouldn’t refuse, but a taste you’re going to love. Would you say that the United States is probably the biggest people in the United States who are probably the biggest buyers of cocaine and drugs in the world? Is this the biggest market? I would say right now I do not follow the drug world. I avoid it. But in my days I did time and I explained here, my book. Allow me. Yes, I explained very carefully that I did time.

The first time for 300 pounds of marijuana for two years. Then I met my first American partner. See, now this is life and death of the Medellin cartel. And it took me one year to write it. Now it’s in English. I have it in Spanish. Now it’s in English. So I met one inmate called Jor Young and he passed away a few years ago. He wrote a book called Blow. Yeah, for him. Well, good journalist or what writer. And he told part of the story, part of the story how he met me, how we did in prison.

And to answer your question is that he asked me to give him my. A copy of my indictment. My charges just says I’m Colombian and I was pinched by the DEA with 300 pounds of marijuana that came in into Miami inside an old R28 airplane engine. It weighed like two tons, the engine. So we put the Mari mines and send it to Miami for repairs. Well, the thing didn’t work. Obviously I end up in prison. But George in his furlough because immigration I couldn’t get A furlough because I was a foreign. Right. He sends the end diamond to his people in California.

And his people are Richard Burrill. And I don’t know if they exist anymore, but. And some other ones. And George proves them that he is in contact with a Colombian narco, imprisoned and we both serving two years each. So we were to be released soon. Yes. Wow. They offered, allow me. $70,000 per kilo, cocaine, California. And I knew for experience that the kilo will cost $1,000 in Bolivia. So it did entice me and I became Jordyong’s partner. Yes. So it was really George that got you into the cocaine business, because before that, it was all marijuana.

You’re right, you’re right, you’re right. Well, before that, I was bringing cocaine from Bolivia as a driver, as a transporter, not mine. So I knew the marker. Yes. In South America. Well, let me ask you. You know, Carlos, gotta ask you this question. When I was in business, you probably know my background, but I was in the gasoline business. And basically we were stealing tax money from the government. And at the height of our operation, you know, we were bringing in seven, eight, nine, $10 million a week. Was very lucrative. And somebody came to me at one time and said, michael, you know, you got all the money you need.

Why don’t you stop right now, you know, before you get in trouble? And I looked at him and I said, you know what? You get as much jail time for a million dollars as you do for a billion dollars. So I just may as well keep going. It was more. It was more the action than anything else, because you reach a point in life, well, you’re not even counting the money. I mean, it’s. There’s so much, you know, it’s more than you probably ever need. Did you ever get that feeling? Because the amount of money in the.

In. In the business that you were in, the drug business, is just. There’s so much money. And did you ever think at one point, hey, I should stop, I have enough, or did you always feel, I just got to keep going? I received many times advice from my family because my family suffered tremendously with the punishment I served. Advice from friends. Retire. Retire, retire. But I didn’t have the willpower to do that. I was weak. I continue the thrill of building this, my own organization. See, we, the 26 narco, that’s for it. Cocaine and Medellin, we were growing.

Some will lose two, three loads and had to close their office or. Or someone else will take place and take their pilots take their boats or take their connections in the United States. So it was, as I said, we were never, never a united criminal organization. But we share information regarding law enforcement. Right. Or the extradition of Colombians. Things that are very pivotal to our things. And one thing that I must percent for real, like I explained in the book, the whole thing was developing so much that hundreds of, of, of offices, money laundering offices in the Medellin and Colombia appeared, people laundering the money.

So it wasn’t that the business was collapsing, it was always booming. And more so it was difficult. And I was addicted to the adrenaline that the challenges in the ocean and the law enforcement presented. I was embedded and obviously I was fixated in my crime activities. And I was obviously wrong because some other narcos did retire. Yes, some other ones, not me. Let me ask you, did the Colombian government always put a lot of pressure on you or did at times they just look the other way and let you operate? In those days, Michael, we’re talking about 1970, 1980, computers didn’t exist really, or intelligence telephone or satellites were seldom seen.

So wasn’t that the Colombian government wasn’t chasing us. It was. They didn’t have the equipment. That’s one thing that I regret tremendously, that I chose the wrong profession. Now I’m almost 80 years old and I look behind and half of my life I spent risking my very life and freedom. And, and now, well, fortunately I retired or the American government retired me because when I got pinched, the DEA won the game. I lost big time. They won. The DEA chased me for 1012 years. They won. The federal judge in Jacksonville, Florida sentenced me to 135 years without parole plus one life sentence without parole.

And the Bureau of Prisons classify me as a very dangerous individual and place me in the then maximum security prison of Marion, Illinois at the Canadian border. So, so I was there for maximum security. And I remember vividly the warden used to walk around Fridays and he’ll knock on my cell. We all in solitary confinement because Mari Penitentiary was what they opened to bring the people from Alcatraz. They closed down Alcatraz and put the people there. So I’m there and the warden walks around and says, hey, later, how are you every Friday? And I says, well, I’ll just pray and read, make sure I get some books.

Oh yeah, all right. But don’t worry about the size of your room. We’re building Florence, Colorado Supermax benecatory and it will be four floors on the ground, but you will have a bigger room, bigger cell. So every Friday, he will recitate this to me. And I was there, solitary confinement for four years. And Michael, I had a small television, black and white. And one day I see the American military invaded somewhere. And I looked, and they invaded the country of Panama and with the air force, et cetera, and they arrested the dictator, General Manuel Norrega, and brought him to the United States of America, to a federal court.

And coincidentally, the charges, the indictment against this dictator was General Manuel Noriega and the Medellin cartel conspired to bring hundreds of tons of cocaine into the United States. That was the charge. And regarding my confinement, about a year went by, and the US Attorney General from the United States offered me a deal to rehabilitate, cooperate and freedom. So that was a game changing. Yes. Wow. Did you, you know, when you mentioned Noriega, during my time in that life, we had a compound in Panama. And the reason we had it in Panama is because there was back then no extradition to the United States.

They didn’t have an extradition treaty with the United States. And we were actually paying Noriega for safety there. Did you ever have. Did you ever meet Noriega? Because I know he came into prison in the United States. I didn’t know that was exclusively Pablo’s. Pablo. Pablo’s connection. He wouldn’t let us any narco come near Norriga. That was his deal. That was his man. And they dealt for many years. And of course, we. Anything that went through Panama, through the Panamanian airport, we had to go through Pablo to arrange for the transportation. And that’s one of the reasons Pablo became so powerful, that he had that connection.

Yes. Years later, my judge regarding my case reduced my sentence to a total of 55 years. And he said there to be released at the age of 74. So I dare say that I survived and I had to serve whatever the government give me in those days. Now the law have changed and now is more leaning towards those figures. But I did serve 33 years of daily federal prison confinement. And did they move you from. Did you go from Marion to Florence? Never. No. They moved me to the secret prisons that they have for the Witness Protection program.

So I was there for 29 years. And I became a cook in the prison, cook for 16 years. And thanks to that, I got four years off my sentence because of working. And that put me out on the year 2020. And that’s when I got to Germany, and the COVID virus epidemic had just exploded. I was able to get to Germany thanks to the German Embassy I was able to, like, in 30 days, but after that, most of the countries closed down their airports and borders. Yes. And why do you think, Carlos, the. I know you’re.

Was your. Who was it that was German? Was your mom or your dad? My father is a German engineer that came to Colombia in 1927 and lived until he was 85 years old in Colombia, married my mother, and that’s where I came in. Yes. And why do you think the. Why did the German government take an interest in your case and want to help you get out of prison? Michael? Good question. Because when I was a baby, my father took me to the German Embassy and registered me there. So all my life I’ve been a German citizen.

And the German government has obligations towards the citizens, regardless where they are. Right. And that’s why they helped me so much. Yes. So your father actually helped you out by making you a German citizen? Absolutely, yes. Yes. That was a big plus because Germany and United States have a very close and excellent relationship, both governments. Now, the history going back to what you mentioned about the gasoline business, well, it is interesting because eventually all that in reality comes to an end. I take into consideration history. For example, in the Bahamas, Wooden Rogers was a privateer or a pirate.

Was the number one pirate in the Bahamas 150 years ago or 200 years ago, wooden Rogers. Eventually that came to an end because the British Navy came to the Bahamas and told him, the game is over, we’re going to kill you, arrest you, whatever. And Wooden Rogers made a deal. And Wooden Rogers made a deal where the British government gave him immunity, amnesty, and name him the first governor of the Bahamas. So the super pirate, the most powerful pirate in the Caribbean, became the governor of the Bahamas. And Wooden Rogers never, never betrayed the British or his agreement.

He always fulfilled and was stupendous governor of the Bahamas. Here you have the situation, a different scope, and here’s Washington. That gave me a second opportunity. But I dare say that they did invade Panama with 24,000 soldiers to capture one man. Yes, on decay, brought him to the United States. And wisely and lucky for me, the government offered me something that I couldn’t refuse. He made you an offer you couldn’t refuse? I couldn’t refuse. I did have to ask Pablo Escobar for permission to accept that deal, because otherwise my family in Colombia will be a big risk.

And Pablo gave me the permission. It’s all in the book. It took me in Germany. It took me one year to write this book. Well, here is in Spanish. Yes, that’s I wrote in Spanish, and about a month ago, he came out in English. I found a terrific translator, Nicolas Patino. He’s. He’s. He’s Colombian American, and he translated the book Stupendously. And my hope and pray is that new generation, some of the people that like these topics, really, and I need to share with them, share my experiences, the good ones and the bad ones. And the thing is that trafficking in drugs and cocaine is not worth it.

Especially today with law enforcement, with all that cyber technology, the person that is involved in trafficking narcotics, especially big organizations, they will be extinguished eventually, because one cannot outfox the Foxster. Yes. You know, I don’t think people understand how powerful the American government is also, that when they. When you’re under investigation by them, they’re relentless. So you and I have pretty much the same message, Carlos. You know, we did our time. You did a lot more time than I did. You did 33 years. My dad did 40 years. I ended up, by the grace of God, only doing eight years.

But I think, you know, people don’t understand, you know, the pressure that you’re under throughout this whole time that you’re living as a criminal. You know, and especially in your case, Carlos, at one point in time, you might have been, again, one of the richest men in the world. You were very successful in that operation. But it had to be every day, you know, you had to be thinking, every day, is this going to be my last day? You know, am I going to be able to continue? Is the government going to catch up with me? Are my enemies going to catch up with me? You got to be a very strong person to endure all of that, you know, even though, look, we were both committing crimes.

We understand that. But there’s something inside of you that you got to be very strong to deal with all of that. I mean, you know, you have to be a very strong guy emotionally, mentally, at that point in time to go through what you went through and to. To have the amount of success that you had. Michael I didn’t have the willpower to quit on time, but I had an agenda. And the agenda was very disciplined, was. I invested a great deal on my enterprises, which that required. I flew my airplanes myself many times. I captained my boats, and I was the captain of my ship.

And each ship has a capitan, and some run aground. Throughout those years, I was successful in avoiding, obviously, the law enforcement ships and planes. And also, which is more lethal, even is the competition in the criminal world. You have to. At least I did I had very good trainers. I had many weapons, big caliber weapons and training. And the enemy knew my capabilities. And I was able most of the time to dissuade or persuade the enemy. Don’t mess with me. Right. And that was part of being a captain of my own ship. Yes. Carlos, let me.

At the height of your operation, when everything was going well for you, how much. Describe how much wealth you actually had. I mean, what, what did you have? And you were a young guy back then. I mean, you did this early in your life. It’s the height of your operation. Everything is going well. You’re very successful. Describe, you know, your wealth. What did you have at that time? Well, I remember sometimes that, that in, in real estate and cash, I was able to achieve close to $100 million. So that was the highest. But I had gigantic expenses.

I had to keep an island with, et cetera, farms in Colombia. I had farms with airplanes, hangars, people working security, people working in other things. Paying the police, paying some politicians. Same thing in the Bahamas. In the Bahamas. And unexplained books. I had a very good relationship with the prime minister, Lyndon Pilling. And part of the secret was discovered of Mr. Pilling and myself when his lea son was called. Everett Banister was the prime minister right hand man. He will come to my island every month. I’ll give him $150,000. And this is the middle man that brings it to his boss.

But I’m very comfortable saying this, and it’s all in the book is because every Banister’s son, Gorman, when I was on trial 30 some years ago, 35 years ago, he, the young guy came in as a witness against me and told the jury, the judge and the D A that his father will bring him sometimes Norman ski to pick up the money I paid. So he, he, he, he spilled the beans. He, he opened up the door to that. Other situations too, is that I was careful in keeping that as, as, as confident, as confident all the time is the organized crime or smugglers try to grease or pay authorities that can stop their business.

Yeah, you know, it’s always that way, Carlos. Eventually when you have such a big operation, people are going to turn on you. That’s just the way it goes. Because they’re all, you know, they’re all looking to save themselves. Let me ask you this, Carlos, and it’s a tough question, but, you know, in my former life, honestly, murder was part of the life. You know, we understood that when we came into that life. You know, if you didn’t play by the rules, possibly you could be taken out. And I know there’s a line, you probably heard it before.

Nothing personal. It’s just business. It was part of the life, you know, it’s part of the cartel life. Also. When. When this happened, it’s a matter of survival. When this happened, how did you feel about it? You know, did you feel like it’s just part of life? I got to eliminate my enemies. This is the business. You don’t think of it in personal terms. You just think of it as part of the business. Like in the Mafia, Cosa Nostra. It’s part of the business. It’s not the right way to look at it, but that’s how we look at it.

Did you feel the same way, Michael? In my conscience, I don’t have any guilty feelings of having been able to defend myself successfully against people that were trying to kill me or kidnap me. One time I was kidnapped, I was shot and I was able to flee. I escaped the kidnappers that came out in the papers here in Colombia. I was young and I was in the land or in clandestinity in the Amazon jungle for a couple years. There’s no government authorities in the jungle over there. People try to confront you or steal your cocaine or steal your money or steal your life.

So it’s up to the person to be skillful enough and to his security people to prevent that from happening. The rest, I detail it very much in the book. I explained every detail how one person that tried to kill me when assassin, he had murdered 73 people. And he kept on saying, now he’s going to accomplish number 74. Well, it’s in the book. I explained in great detail. And there’s a reason why I’m talking to you today. Yes, Amazon, Amazon Publishing printed, published, edited this book. And what Mr. Bessel has done is outstanding because it brings closer the languages and the relationship between North America, England, Australia and South America.

South America produces monumental amount of food for the world. Some of the best quality food we got in the winter, right? But we produce one thing that is the rotten apple, the coca leaf. But to bring you up to my admiration personally for my admiration for England, for John Lennon, the musician, I would say that I was able at one of my hotels to have the best sculpture in Colombia building a statue of John Lennon. Really. And the statue is 45 years old now. Now I. The statue is in the safe place, but I have a small statue, a replica of that statue.

And we love American music, we love rock and roll. We love the Beatles, we love John Lennon, we love peace and tranquility. Pablo Escobar’s craziness in the world and all the crimes she committed are not the standards for the Colombian people. He was unique, unfortunately, and he committed so many crimes that why he’s not talking to you here. But it’s me with John Lennon here. And this is very significant because the sculpture. Rodrigo got John Lennon with the Industrial cup because of a working class hero song, right? So he. Right, John Lenard here, very emblematically got his long hair, his round glasses, his guitar.

There’s other statues of John Lennon made in other countries, but the guitarist pivotal, that that was him. The. The real statue is 3 meters high, 9ft tall. Here’s the bullets. And that’s one of the reasons that we’re talking about violence. And then you have to put in context this, because you were young in those days and I was young, why someone killed John Lenon. He’s naked here because he used to protest publicly and take his clothes off against the Vietnam War, the war between United States military and the Vietnamese military. So we do respect American culture, American music and American people.

Yes. And the only product the South America sells that is really illegal is the cocaine leaf, the cocaine kilos, rest my case. I got it now. Did you say you had the statue, the actual statue of John Lennon built? I had it 45 years ago. It’s 3 meters tall. This is a small replica that the sculpture did for me, for my house. And eventually, I think. I don’t want to anticipate, but maybe next year, the statue of John Lennon and I gave Rhys two pictures of the real statue of John Lennon. That is up to you to peruse them.

And everything else is dandy because America, with all this powerful DEA and powerful agencies and fighting the narcotics, won big time. And I lost big time. However, for whatever reason and many reasons, they gave me a second opportunity in life. And that’s why, Michael, I’m talking to you today and your splendid viewers. Yes, well, and I appreciate that very much. Carlos, let me ask you, what was your relationship with Pablo Escobar? Was it a good relationship? For several years we had mainly a business relationship. He was not a sociable person, and my family never met his family, etc.

But we were just business, business. And eventually, like the criminal world, we had a confrontation. Yes. And I relayed the whole nine yards in the book. And he turned me into the local police and Bea and. Yes, but on the other hand, the way things were, I dare say That I was lucky that I did not end up in the morgue, buried. I end up in United States. And as I says, life on God, my faith in God helped me and I was able to return to Colombia free, like today. Yes. And college. Did you ever.

During all this time, did you really have to worry about your family? You know, that your family could be killed as a result of the business that you were in? Were you ever really worried about that? No. No. I know because as I says, I asked Pablo, a Catholic priest, and I tell him the book came and asked permission to testify with the guarantee that Pablo would not harm my family. And also the fact that Pablo himself has surrendered at that time, a surrender to the Colombian government, and he was able to build his own jail.

Yes. So he says, tell Carlos that I already solve all my problems with the Colombian government for him to do whatever he needs to do to get his freedom. Yeah. And that I. That he will not harm my family in any way. Yes. And were you. And you trusted him when he said that? I mean, he was a man of his word in that regard. Well, he did. Kept. He kept his word, yes. Were you the first person extradited from Colombia to the United States because your arrest was in Colombia, Right? Yes, Michael, in those days.

Colombia now is very modern in many ways and. And much, much more educated at every level. In those days, for example, I was arrested in the morning, and the government put me on a plane to United States DEA plane that afternoon. So, Michael, that is called extradition. The same day, during your time, did you ever meet any of my former associates while you were in prison? I most have, but I’m not in liberty to say that. For example, when I was in the maximum security penitentiary in Marion, Illinois, I. We had no contact. Everyone had his own cell, and there was no contact.

So I don’t know who was there. Right. And at the program I was in then, which is special prisons, they change our names. Yes. I. I couldn’t say who was who. Yeah, yeah. Because at that time, my. My former boss, Carmine Persigo, he was my boss at one time. He was in Marion for quite some time. I thought maybe you might have run into him. There was no togetherness. Yeah. But I imagine that we were the worst criminals in United States or the most highly classified as dangerous, because we were right there in total isolation for the rest of our time or sentence.

We were never in a common place. And, Carlos, how did you deal with being in isolation for so long? I was in isolation for almost three years. I How did, how do you get through your day? I know how I got through mine. How did you get through your day in total isolation? It was very, very, very hard, especially little tiny sale. I did read, I found lots of tranquility reading, but my, my blood pressure went up and obviously I had to become my own psychiatrist to, to, to slow down my, my metabolism and my brain.

And I remember doing exercises where I tried to control myself, my thoughts and. Which is very difficult. But I did the best I could. I. There was no really recreation. They call it recreation like they open your cell at 6:00 in the morning, you’re full of change, and they want to take you to a small patio with, with three feet of snow, say, well, here’s your recreation at 6:00am so that, that don’t fly. It was very, very. But that’s, that’s why in Europe, in many cases, the courts deny extradition to the United States because of the practice of solitary confinement at that level is seen in Europe as psychologically and physical torture.

Well, and I agree with that, Carlos. The time I was in solitary, I spent 29 months in solitary. I saw a lot of guys did not do well. And I understand that you got to be very strong mentally and emotionally to get through that. And you know, as far as the yard is concerned, the Bureau of Prisons, by policy, they’re supposed to let you go in the yard, you’re supposed to have five hours of exercise a week. But like you said, they used to come at 3 o’ clock in the morning and say, do you want to go out in the yard? Which was a little cage that they woke you in, you remember? And I used to say, it’s 3 o’ clock in the morning.

So the CEO would say, oh, you refuse, right? I said, yeah, I refuse. This way, they didn’t want to do the work. They didn’t even want to take you out for the, for the hour, you know, that day. So I remember that well. But you know, you got to be strong to get through that. You have to be because isolation is a form of torture, you know, for young people. It would be very hard for them to get through it. Very hard. You. Right, Michael. And one thing also that, that you, you, you was, you were extraordinarily gifted to survive that and get to tell the story because admiring.

Some of these guys will kill themselves. Yeah. In solitary. Yeah. And another situation that you have, which is, which is brutal. Brutal is every hour they put a flashlight in your eyes and they say, no, we only making sure that you’re, you’re here every hour, they even nighttime. I know. Carlos, let me ask you, how do you, how do you feel today? I mean, you and I are the same age. I think you’re a year older than me. Maybe you’re 75 now or 75. I’m 74, so we’re the same age. We went through a lot of the same things in different circumstances.

So I could relate very much to what you went through in your life and what you did. And you seem to be really at peace right now. You really do, you know, it’s a very enjoyable conversation. You’re obviously a very intelligent man. You seem to really be at peace. How do you, is that true? I mean, psychologically you’re okay after doing all that time and going through everything you went through, through, you know, you wrote a book which was fascinating by the way. And I’m really going to tell my viewers this is the book that they should pick up and read.

It’s just fascinating to be sitting across from somebody that went through what you went through, reached the height of Europe, your operation the way you did in a world that was very tough to survive, very, very tough. And now you’re, you know, you seem like you’re very much at peace. How do you deal with all if Michael I live one day at a time and the feeling when I got to Germany, I got to a hotel that day and lie down on this king size bed with six pillows and then I turned. This is fabulous. But for 33 years I slept on a terrible bunk welded to the wall.

So some of those things are very fascinating feeling walking inside a supermarket and look at thousands and thousands of the bed. I’m a cook, so you can imagine how many, how many times I went cooking things positively deliciously, the people I was greeted, etc. But after five years in Germany, I decided to come to Colombia. My last stop in this planet is Colombia. And I came back five months ago and I have paid my time to Washington. I’m good. I don’t have any charges in Colombia. I didn’t break any laws here that are chargeable. And I got a very nice family, fortunately, and friends and the food and the place.

So I’m, I’m tranquil. Whenever the Lord calls me, I’ll go up to him smiling to meet my mother and father. They already passed away. Yes, I thank you, thank you, thank you for, for your time, your, your superb professionalism on, on, on everything and the example that you went through and survived it. God, that was, that was a Monster sentence you served right now, me. And I say in the book, my last statement. When I was at trial in United States of America in 1987, my jury went to the jury room to deliver my faith. After eight months of testimony.

Eight months. Eight months. The jury went to deliberate. Then first lady, Ms. Nancy Reagan. Ronald Reagan was the president, came to Jacksonville, a block away from the courthouse and through one day of say no to drugs campaign, while the jury a block away is deliberating my fed. This is unique history, but also talks about the importance of the case for the American government. Okay, thank you, Michael. Appreciate very much. And obviously, Rhys and all your crew, and I thank you kindly, and I’ll be looking forward to watch your program and all your future programs for many years to come.

Well, Carlos, thank you. And you know, I’ve been very blessed. I’ve been all over the world, but I’ve never been to South America. And I want to make a trip to Colombia because I hear such beautiful things about the country. Yeah. So hopefully you and I will have the opportunity to meet. You can show me around. Absolutely. My house is your house. Oh, all right. Everybody wants to see Colombia, to come here and enjoy themselves. Yes. Well, I’m going to. I’m going to take you up on that. You’re going to take me to a beautiful restaurant.

We’ll sit down, have a nice bite to eat and talk. Splendid, splendid. And it’s an honor and a privilege to have met you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, same here, Carlos. God bless you. And I wish you all the best, you and your family. Thank you. Very kind. Well, friends, there you have it. You know, Carlos Lehda was probably one of the most successful drug dealers in the history of Colombia, in the history of the United States. It’s just an amazing story. Fascinating that he’s alive and free. I’m sure when he was sentenced, he never thought he’d be out a prisoner, free man again.

But here he is, 75 years old, able to live out the rest of his life. And people, I know what some of you are going to say, but the man did 33 years in prison. And, you know, I can see that he’s remorseful. He’s got a great message now, a wonderful book that he wrote that people should read. Just a fascinating story. You know, he’s turned his life around. And you say, yeah, after 33 years in prison, finally, you know, you understand that what you were involved in at one point in time, you know, just the wrong thing to do.

But fascinating story. I hope you enjoyed it. We try to bring you the best possible, you know, interviews, the best possible content that we can. And there you have it. So, my friends, that’s it for today. How do I always leave you? Same way. Never going to change. Be safe, be healthy. And yes, God bless each and every one of you. Your families, your neighborhood, your communities. God bless America and my friends. I’ll see you next time. Take care, my friends. Before you leave, I got something special for you. You really want to be part of my legacy, Part of a community? Then join the Francis family.

You’re going to get Q and A’s with me privately. You’re going to get behind the scenes stories I’ve never told before. I can’t say everything on YouTube. You’re going to get Q and A’s. You’re going to get zoom calls. You’re going to get a bunch of people working together for the benefit of all of us. Be part of the legacy of. I’m telling you, this is an offer that you shouldn’t refuse. You want more of me? This is the place to go. Be part of the elite michaelfrancis.com family. Join up now. Sam.
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