The Boss Of Hells Angels: Sitdown With George Christie Part 2

➡ The text is a conversation between two former members of criminal organizations, discussing their past lives and current activities. They talk about their experiences in prison, their work habits, and their views on retirement. They also discuss the structure of the Hell’s Angels, a motorcycle club, and how it differs from traditional criminal organizations. The conversation ends with one of them working as a defense expert witness, explaining the structure of the Hell’s Angels to others.
➡ The text discusses an organization that, while not criminal, has criminals within it. The members are secretive and greedy, not sharing their methods or profits. The speaker also mentions a private platform, the Franzes family, which offers exclusive courses and wisdom for $10 a month. The text ends with a discussion about legal battles, indictments, and the impact of public perception on potential jurors.
➡ The text discusses a conversation about the changing dynamics of organized crime, the impact of government intervention, and the rise of informants. It also mentions a special Valentine’s Day offer for two best-selling fruit wines. The conversation reflects on the fear of long-term imprisonment leading many to become informants, and the diminishing strength of groups like the Hells Angels. The text ends with a debate on the ethics of using informants to lure individuals into committing crimes.
➡ The speaker argues that using informants to lure people into committing crimes they wouldn’t otherwise commit is entrapment. He believes that when the government pays an informant to engage in a crime, the informant becomes a government agent. Despite some disagreement, many people agreed with his viewpoint. The speaker also shares anecdotes from his time in prison, discussing the conditions and experiences he had.
➡ The text is a conversation between two men reminiscing about their past experiences. They discuss a time when one of them was in prison and had a TV in his cell against the rules, and how a friendly officer helped him out. They also talk about a man named Louis Roseberry who was allowed to leave prison temporarily to sort out family issues. The conversation then shifts to their views on the lack of respect in today’s society, particularly among young people. They also discuss a controversial incident involving their friend Andrew Tate at a club in Miami.
➡ The text discusses how law enforcement often targets high-profile criminals to boost their careers, using the example of John Gotti’s conviction leading to the prosecutor becoming a federal judge. It also explores the changing motivations for joining groups like the Hells Angels, shifting from a love of motorcycles and brotherhood to a desire for power and money. The text ends with a reflection on survival in such dangerous lifestyles, with the speaker attributing his survival to a higher power and a purpose to inspire others to turn their lives around.
➡ The text is a conversation between two individuals discussing their past criminal activities and their experiences with the justice system. They talk about why good people do bad things, their discomfort with their past actions, and their attempts to make amends. They also discuss their experiences with parole and probation, including their frustrations with the system’s focus on fines and lack of personal concern. Lastly, they address accusations of being informants and their efforts to preserve their lives and families amidst their criminal pasts.
➡ The speaker discusses his experiences with online criticism, his legal troubles, and his relationship with a man named Sonny. He also talks about his decision to write a book about these experiences, which took him three years. The speaker emphasizes the importance of understanding that the lifestyle he once led is not sustainable, and that it’s better to walk away from it. He ends by expressing hope for future conversations and the importance of learning from the experiences of older individuals.
➡ The speaker reflects on his past life in a brotherhood, highlighting the initial appeal of camaraderie and respect. However, he also acknowledges the darker side of betrayal and backstabbing that became more evident over time. He shares a transformative experience in jail, where he began to see his life differently, especially after his mother’s death. The speaker also discusses the importance of faith and the contemplation of life after death, urging others to consider their spiritual beliefs seriously.
➡ Two friends, Michael and George, agree to meet after New Year’s for a meal, possibly involving a high-quality frozen pizza. They enjoy reminiscing about their past and present lives, both being happily married. George has a new book out that he’s put his heart into. The conversation ends with well-wishes for safety, health, and blessings for everyone, including America.

One of the things that I think really decimated the loyalty and the brotherhood and whatnot within the Hells Angels was once they started flipping people, each city in that room and you think, who. Who’s going to be next? What’s the condition today of the Angels, the inner workings of the club? I hate to say this publicly, but he became a Hell’s Angel. But at the time, he was in a club called the Satan Slaves. His name was Louis Roseberry. Big guy, I think I do remember him. He was having problems at home. His wife was just running amok, drugs.

He went to the warden and he told the warden, he goes, look, this is what’s going on. I need to go home. Need to get the kids out of the environment. If you gave me 24 hours, he goes, I give you my word, I’ll come back. The board, let him go. Let him go. Do you remember Hertz Rent a car? Sure. And you remember Avis? We try harder. Yes. And one year the government said the Hell’s Angels are now second to the Mafia. So you were the Avis. That’s. And we were. And that’s what we were telling people.

We had a big party in San Bernardino where the club was birthed. And they. The head of the intelligence unit in Ventura, who was supposed to investigate the Hells Angels, specifically me, started a rumor that Sonny was retiring and George Christie was taking over and that’s why everybody was coming to Ventura. His exact words were to celebrate George Christie’s coronation as the new leader. And he knew Hell’s Angels weren’t structured that way. And the more I told him, no, that’s not what’s going on here, the louder he. He spoke those words. It took me a couple of years to figure it out.

The reason he did that is because. Everyone. Welcome to another sit down with Michael Franzese. Hope everybody is doing well. All is very good, very blessed on this end, my friends. And as always, I give all the praise, honor, glory and thanksgiving to our God for that very good guest today. Had him on once before. You all enjoyed it very much. Thought I’d bring him back. His name is George Christie. He was a member of the Hell’s Angels, A very prominent member for many, many. He was actually the president of the Ventura, California chapter for quite some time, a spokesperson for them.

At one time, he and I actually did time together in Terminal Island. He was there for drug related crimes, I think, and I was there for my RICO case. But we got friendly there and then we reconnected all these years later. We had a great conversation last time around, and I think we’re going to enjoy another great conversation. We got things in common. He’s left the Life like I left the Life. He was, he was actually excommunicated when he did leave the Life because of the. A fellow by name of Barker who was the current president, I think, up until he passed.

I think he passed away. But at any rate, we’re going to bring George back on right now. You’re going to enjoy the conversation. So here we go. Without further delay, my good friend, George Christie. George, good to see you again, my friend. It’s been, it’s been what, maybe a year or so? Over a year. All right, well, you still look good. Well, as you do as well, I. Hair’s a little longer. I’m going out old school. Why not? Why change, right? You know what I mean? I, you know, it’s funny, when I got down to Terminal island, when we were there, I had really long hair and Mexican gangster guys I was running around the yard with talked me into cutting it, you know, and they, they remember how they cut the hair with the comb and the razor blade and.

Oh, yeah, they taught me how to do it, too. Did they teach you how to do it? Yeah, it was times I couldn’t get. When I was in a hole, we couldn’t get a haircut, so they showed me how to do it. Yeah. Do it yourself. Yeah, yeah. When she gets mad at me, I still trim my hair. She said, you’re not in prison anymore. Let me make an appointment for you. Well, you know, sometimes old habits die hard. They die hard. You know, I had a great year, as I know you did. You know, everything’s.

Seems to be heading in a positive direction for both of us. Well, let me ask you this. 79 years old, I’m 75 this year. You’re working harder now or less than you did in the past. Working harder than I ever see you everywhere. Yeah, I’m working harder than I ever was, but I’m feeling healthy. I, I think that’s the key. Keep working, man. You know, my grandfather worked till he was 85 in the shoe repair shop, you know, working on shoes, resoling them, putting heels on me. Could barely see at big cataracts on his eyes and he would, he would feel the stuff, you know, he loved doing it, right? Yeah, he wouldn’t stop, man, as I kept him going.

You know, honestly, George, I don’t, I don’t understand retirement. Like, what are you gonna do? Just wake up and do Nothing. Have. I. I don’t get it. I. I can’t. I can’t see myself ever retiring. No, I. And I’m with you. I. I just want to keep going. You know, I just finished my book, my fourth book, and took me three years. And I, you know, I incorporated it right into my working routine where every day I put aside a particular amount of time. You know, the minimum I would. Would work on it is a half hour.

Sometimes I go a couple hours, sometimes I’d struggle, you know, put a half hour in. In front of the computer. Because sometimes you’re inspired, you know, sometimes you’re not. Let me tell you. I know, George. Anytime I. When I wrote my books, I went to the publisher and they gave me a deadline and I. Oh, man, I hate that I laughed. Yeah, I never made a deadline yet. You know, I gotta tell this. I never took any drugs or anything like that. So I had to make a deadline on my last book, and it was really tight, but they said, come on, we set up all this marketing.

You gotta do it. You screwed us a couple of times. You didn’t make it. So my daughter. I said, how am I? I gotta stay up for three days. So my daughter gave me an Adderall. I knew you were gonna say that, George. I didn’t sleep for a week. I swear to God. That thing kept me going. I said, I will never take one of those again. But all these college kids take that to cram for their exams and everything else. The only drug I ever took in my life outside of a prescription that was given to me, and they are prescription and regulated.

Yeah, Y. Well, you know, I’m laughing because my wife, Beverly, she’s 80, just about 80. She goes to the doctor and she tells the doctor, I want a prescription for Adderall. And the guy. So the guy says, the doctor says to her, oh, Adderall. He goes, you know, there’s a lot of long term effects. And she said, what are you talking about? I’m 80 years old. I get that. Yeah. But I’ll tell you what, these, they work. Yeah, they just keep you up, man. But I finished the book. At least that was a good thing about it.

And did you feel focused? Yeah, I did, yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. I’ve taken Adderall, so I understand. Yeah, I had to block everything else out and just finish it up and. And got it done. But, man, I’m telling you, it. It lasted that. And, you know, there’s a difference between Adderall and guys making mess in the bathtub? I would think so. Yeah. But anyway. So listen, it’s been a great year for you. You know, the. The last time we did an interview, we got so many great comments, so many inquisitive comments. People comparing Hell’s Angels, which you were a big part of, to the Mafia.

Right. They want to know what the differences were. And we talked about that. We did. And we talked about, you know, how the Mafia, I think, is more structured, I believe, you know, we have our. Our ranks and so on and so forth. We were absolutely a criminal organization. Whereas the Hells Angels had charters and they, you know, they were clubs and they. I was laughing. Motorcycle enthusiasts. And that’s what kept you together. But why don’t you. Why don’t you tell us really what the Hell’s Angels is all about? Still a lot of people don’t know.

Well, you know, it’s interesting you use that. A lot of people don’t believe the Hells Angels aren’t structured like a criminal organization. They just absolutely don’t want to believe it. I work as a expert defense expert witness, and I recently was accused by officer, you know, police officer, of being a purger, because I wouldn’t concede that the Hells Angels is not a criminal organization, but it is. It is an organization with criminals in it and. Good way to. Good way to differentiate. Yeah, it really is. And, you know, I usually, you know, throw a little analogy in there.

You know, there’s doctors that are criminals, there’s congressmen, there’s senators or whatever it may be, but it. There are groups that group up together, and. And this is something you will, I think, relate to. They’re so damn greedy. They don’t want to tell anybody what they’re doing because they want all that money going into their own pockets. So, you know, I know I did a show on the History Channel, Outlaw Chronicles, and one of the questions was, well, you guys control the whole meth market in the United States at one time. Well, that’s not really true.

There were two or three guys up in the Bay Area that were expert drug cookers, but they didn’t share that recipe with anybody. You know, they guarded it like a family, you know, spaghetti sauce secret. You know, they did not want that to get out because it gave them a lot of influence with people and, you know, how money. Money influences people. 100. Well, let me ask you this. All right, my friends, listen up. I’ve got some important news. I would say, you know, my private platform, the Franzes family, it’s over on school, we just now lowered it to 10 bucks a month.

We dropped it from 20 for a limited time only because this year, 20, 26, we’re plugging in some integral, accessible, street filled wisdom that you never heard of before. Inside this platform, I’m sharing very exclusive, never before seen courses. I flat out cannot put them on YouTube. They’re too real, they’re too raw, they’re too deep. And if you’re not interested in learning something, you’re not going to pay attention to it. So that’s where we talk strategy, life, faith, business. All from the perspective of a guy who’s been in the life and now is out of the life.

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So don’t wait, scan the QR code on the screen or go to michaelfrancise.com family and jump in for only 10 bucks a month. Where are you going to get a deal like this? I’ll see you on the inside because I’m ready to share, you know, a lifetime’s worth of knowledge and wisdom and experience with every one of you. You know, we had, in New York, we had five families. Correct. And you didn’t have to share information among the five families. Everybody kept their own business unless there was something that they were both working on together. But you had different chapters, right? Correct.

Were the chapters required to share information with the other chapters? Was it one big organization or each individual chapter kind of independent? They were autonomous. They were. And you know, we, we could. There’s another thing I got called on in a. As expert witness in a trial of we were autonomous. You know, that’s why the RICO law never worked on the Hells Angels, because worked on us. Devastated. Oh, devastated. Giuliani. Just devastated. Jumped on that and that commission case. Yeah, I think. And you may agree with me, for me as an outsider looking, it looked like the beginning of the end, perhaps 100%.

Yeah. You know, George, a lot of people blame John Gotti and they blamed, you know, his. His outwardness. And I say it’s had nothing to do. John Gotti didn’t help the life because he brought attention. Sure. But it was a RICO statute that killed the life. That was it. And who was that? Robert Blakey that was instrumental in. He created the law. Right. But Giuliani, 10 years later, learned how to use. How to use it because nobody knew what to do with. Do anything with it. And have you ever spoken to Blakey? Never. Blakey, Giuliani, yes, but not.

Yeah, I know. You’ve talked to Giuliani. I talked to Blakey on the phone. Really? Yeah. I. After I got indicted in 2001, case drifted over into 2002. It took a year. And Robert Blakey was visited by two of the detectives on the case. They went to Blakey and they were trying to figure out a way to use this racketeering charge against me. Against me. And it was part of the discovery motion. That’s how I found out. And I knew immediately who Blakey was because, you know, I know a lot of Mafia history and whatnot. Because I would study it, you know, I’d say, how.

How are the cops getting these guys? You know, what’s hurting them, what isn’t? It’s. I found it intriguing that the. The racketeering case up in the Bay Area, they just couldn’t sell it to the jury. You know, the jurors did not believe we were that organized to where we were constructed or structured like a. So were you indicted under that statute? Yes. You were. And the Mueller was the prosecutor. Yeah. So there you go, you know, and he. He finally said, this isn’t going to work. And I, I don’t think it was because he was concerned about justice.

I think he was concerned about his record and his conviction. You know how it works. Yeah. And he’s thinking, I’m not going to take this back to court again and fail again. But, you know, they said. Made some major mistakes in that trial. I think they. They were comparatives with the Mafia. And, you know, we even had a. Do you remember Hertz Rent a Car? Sure. And you remember Avis? We try harder. Yes. And one year, the government said the Hell’s Angels are now second to the Mafia. So you were the Avis. Yes. And that’s what we were telling people.

You know, we’re Avis. We’re going to try harder next year. We’re going to get up on that top echelon. I mean, it was. It was a stupid joke. We thought it was funny at the time, but, I mean, these indictments, they keep coming and they keep coming, and it, it’s not so funny. You know, I pulled into a gas station one time, and probably the early. Nah, probably late 70s, and four or five of us, and we’re looking pretty wild, you know, how back in the day guys could be looking and the. Everybody was locking their doors in the gas station.

You know, I thought it was funnier in hell. And I. How many of you pulled in? Probably just not that many. Probably seven, five, eight. But, you know, very impressive. Yeah. Yeah. So I’m laughing. I think it’s funnier. Hell, I, you know, I get on the freeway, we take off, and then I start thinking, those guys are potential jurors, you know, And I think that’s when I started thinking about controlling the narrative in the media and putting our own spin on things in the past. You know, people want to talk bad about the Hell’s Angels. People kind of embraced it, you know.

Yeah. The crazier they think we are, the better it is. Well, not so good in a courtroom. And as you know, I don’t know how many court battles you’ve had. I, I kind of lost count of them. Well, five trials. Yeah. Seven indictments. Right. Two federal racketeering cases, one state. It’s interesting, when they threw that, the feds had been on board with the Ventura County District Attorney, Michael Bradbury, and they started infighting. Oh, yeah, yeah. And the feds pulled out. They go, look, we’re not going to, we’re not going to deal with this guy. You know, he wants, he had a really.

Do you know anything about Michael Bradbury? No. No. Real tough law and order guy. He, he just said, I’m the guy to go after, George. I know, I know how to get him. You know, I’m from Ventura, he’s from Ventura, you know, so he, he was a state, and he was bucking the feds. He was bucking the feds, and they just, they packed up and left and, and, you know, he ultimately failed. But, you know, it’s funny. I, I, I’ve seen you with Giuliani before. Even Giuliani have talked. I think you’ve interviewed him, in fact. Yeah, and I tried to get Bradbury to go on the History Channel with me with.

Wouldn’t do it. Now he was thinking about, entertained it. And I even went and had coffee with him and to, you know, talk him into it. I told him, I said, look, from a snoring value, this is great, man. And at the Last day, you know, he said, I’m not going to do it. He goes, there’s nothing in it for me. He goes, I just. Well, see, Giuliani would embrace that. As I reminded him, I said, rudy, do you remember the day of my arraignment? He gave me a million dollar bill. And he comes in the.

He walks by me and he looks at me and my attorney and he says, Francis, if I convict you on this case, you’re getting double what your father got. 50. I know, yeah. I said, 100 years. I said, bring it on, Rudy. I went just like that. I said, I beat you guys four times already. Let’s go for round five. And he remembered that. He said, I remember now. Why did he pick that number? Just because he doubled your father’s or. That’s what the commission guys got. Oh, yeah, they all got 100 years. Listen, these sentences were so ridiculous.

I mean, ridiculous. You know, you go down on one count, Rico, it could be a 20 year count, right? 20 years. So I mean, I had like, I don’t know, nine, 10, 11 counts, right? Let me ask you this. Imagine putting these on the table in front of your wife. She’s going to look at them and say, wow. And when she opens this bottle and tastes it, believe me, she’s going to love you even more. Trust me on that very big special that we have for Valentine’s Day and it involves our two best selling fruit wines.

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What happened? It seemed like it maybe died a slow death. The continuing criminal enterprise. I don’t hear that anymore. Well, you know what happened? Here’s what I think happened in my. The life is still there. It’s not going away in my lifetime for sure. But either the guys got really smart and they said, we just got to go undercover. We got to stay under the radar after the whole Gotti and the commission thing and Enrico and so many guys turned informants. George, unbelievable. Guys we never expected turned informants. They either went way undercover or they’re just not doing anything anymore.

You know, there was a time during my era in that life, every single day or every other day, New York Times, Daily News, New York Post, Long Island Press, Newsday. Always a story about us. Right. Whoever it might have been. Right. Let me ask you this, and then Hope, I want you to continue. Did the cops and the press have, like, a deal? Hey, the cullips, you know, hey, we’re going over to franchise. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And then, come on, you know, it’s going to be a good show. Every time there was an arrest, that’s the way it was with us.

Absolutely. So they. Now maybe every six months, I see something. I mean, Reese, the most recent thing I saw was with that big gambling bust when they said some of our guys were involved with the athletes. So that was what, three, four months ago? Yeah, that was. Was that basketball or was that. It was. It was basketball. Basketball, Yeah, I remember a couple of months ago. But now you don’t see anything anymore. You know, but during my time in that life, we had 750 made guys. Guys that took the oath, comprised all five families. 750 within the five families, 750 total.

Right, right. You had a lot of associates that weren’t made, but a lot. 750. You had 1400 FBI agents. You had, like, two agents to every one guy. Now, I heard you. You maybe, maybe have 50 agents assigned to that. So that means there’s not much going on. Not much going on. So they. Look, they did their job. They were very effective, you know, but, you know, there was a. There’s a line. I’ll see if you agree with me in Bronxdale. Chaz Palmitari, good friend. So we’re talking, and I says, you know, you had a line in that movie where the little kid asked you, is it better to be loved or feared? And he’s the boss.

Right. Of that town. And he said, it’s better to be feared. And I said, all right, Chaz, I’m asking you that now. What do you think? You know, some guys, he wasn’t involved, but he knew guys, grew up in Brooklyn. He said, well, I think it’s better be feared. I said, chaz, you’re wrong. I said, fear did keep us in line, but here’s what happens. I said, the fear of the mob, your boss making a mistake, was transferred to the fear of the government when his RICO statute came out. Because guys don’t want to go to jail for 100 years.

And they’re Telling you, hey, don’t worry about it. We’re going to give you some money. We’ll put you in a program. You’re putting your guy in jail. He’s never going to bother you. Live happily ever after. Don’t worry about it. We’ll. We’ll take all your crimes away. You got immunity for everything you did in the past. So now they don’t fear the mob anymore. They’re fearing the government. They don’t want to go away for 100 years. That’s why so many guys turned informant. Absolutely. I said, but, Chaz, when you love somebody, really love somebody, you’re not going to hurt them.

You know, in most cases, it’s going to be harder to turn somebody like that out of fear. You can do it, but not out of love. You know, one of the things that I think really decimated the loyalty and the brotherhood and whatnot within the Hells Angels was once they started flipping people, you’d sit in that room and you’d think, who. Who’s going to be next? Exactly. And it really, you know, somebody asks you something that perhaps it’s not really appropriate to ask, and then the first thought in your head is, is he recording me? Exactly.

What’s going on here? And you get nervous. What’s. What’s the condition today of the Angels? Well, you know, they’re not supposed to communicate with me because Sonny and I were at odds and, you know, he banned everyone. Sonny died, right? He died. He did die, and three years ago, last summer. But, you know, I communicate with people, but the inner workings of the club. I hate to say this publicly, but I think it’s a truth. I don’t think the Hells Angels have the strength that they once had. And I. You know, the. When you get indicted and.

Or don’t get indicted, you seem invulnerable. You know, the guys, you know, back in the old days, nobody ratted in the Mafia, right? So how do you get to them? It’s difficult. Yeah, it’s very difficult. And that’s the same thing in the outlaw bike world. You know, you get these long sentences. Like my last case in 2011, count six, seven or eight was mandatory, minimums of life. And I had, like, three guys flip on me because I’m not going to prison, you know, for the rest of my life for George. And influenced by their families, you know, I had a kid that I totally never, ever in a million years thought he would turn on anybody, let alone me.

His future wife convinced him. Sure. You’re Gonna go to jail for Christie. You know, you’re gonna do 30 years for him. And, you know, so the roles reversal, you know, I wind up looking at the rest of my life in jail, and, you know, he walks free, you know, and, you know, you have to ask yourself, you know, what part of the game is that, you know? Well, you know, George, with all the investigative tools that they have, all the surveillance, all the taps, all the hidden cameras, they need informants, right? Without informants, they. They don’t have.

The cases don’t come together. They’re not solidified. Yeah, you need. Need to hear those witness. You know, they’re very clever. You know, perhaps we had to make a deal with the devil, but this is how you infiltrate these guys, and this is how you chip away at the. The structure, you know? Yeah, but, you know, I just had a. Just posted last week. I did a very interesting. You should get involved in this. You’d have a great time. There’s a big platform called Jubilee. I think I saw that. Yeah. They put you in the middle of, like, 20 guys that disagree with you.

Yes. Right. So one of the questions I posed to them and was all cops and only one FBI agent. So truthfully, I had a little over them because they were cops and they deal at a different level. But one of the questions was, is it okay for informants to go to a alleged perpetrator of a crime and try to lure them into that crime? And I kept telling the cops, that’s entrapment, because that informant now becomes a government agent, and he’s bringing a crime that never existed. He created it. Yeah, he created. Somebody created it. He created it.

And they kept saying to me, well, you could say no, And I said yes, but there would be nothing to say no to if the government didn’t bring that alleged crime into me. Did they have a hard time grasping that? Yes. Yes. They said, well, you could always say no. I said, but I wouldn’t have anything to say no to if you didn’t try to lure me into a trap. So it’s entrapment. 95% of everybody agreed with me as far as comments and everything were concerned. And they just couldn’t for a second grasp it. And then they started to see it a little bit.

Well, how could. How could I say no? I wouldn’t say no to anything that wasn’t proposed to me, yes or no. So you can’t tell me that that’s not entrapment if you’re bringing me a crime and hoping that I get Involved in it. And they said, well, it’s an informant. I said, but the informant becomes a government agent because you’re engaging him and you’re paying him. Yeah, you’re paying. The informant engages in the crime. He doesn’t get in trouble, so he becomes a government agent. And they started to get it, but they didn’t want to admit to it.

Sure. Because that makes them look dirty, you know, so if a government agent brings a crime to you that you otherwise would not be involved in. Right. It’s. It’s. For me, it’s easy to grasp. I. I go, well, you’re involving me in something that I had no interest in, but human nature, you know, you’re enticing me. Yeah. You know, you’re. As a government agent, you’re enticing me to get involved in a crime and people. And I said, well, listen, you’re the government. You got all the money, all the resources, all the manpower and all the time.

If you believe I’m a criminal, do your investigation and get me for what I do. Right. Don’t try to bring me something and entice me into doing it, because now you’re entrapping me. Yeah. And you know what? They’re not going to agree with it, but they knew. They kind of grasped. Yeah, they knew. I mean, come on. It’s common sense, right? You know, in the RICO trial, the. We had some funny stuff happen in the trial. They’re always funny. Yeah. It’s just unbelievable stuff. There’s a member, Big Albert, and Bib Albert was in prison fighting the rico.

He had no bail, or his bail was so high that he couldn’t get out. You know, the bails, you know, we’ve all been there. And his name is Big Albert. He’s very flamboyant. He’s writing home to his girlfriend, and he’s telling her, look, I got diamonds buried. I got two, three million dollars here. And of. You know, I’ve got rubies. I got this. They’re reading his mail, though. Y’ all reading his mail? So. So they. They put the cop up, and he’s. He’s expressing to the jury what, you know, he said. He admitted this, and he admitted that.

And so Albert decides to take the stand. So Albert gets up there, and he is. He’s got all his Hell’s angel stuff on. He’s just being very flamboyant. And the prosecutor says, well, you told her you had this buried there. And he goes, yeah. He goes, and you said you had diamonds buried. He said, yeah. And you said you were going to make her a wealthy woman. He said, yeah. And then he looked at the jury, goes, obviously, this guy’s never been in prison before because what do you think I’m going to tell her, I’m broke? And, you know, that cracked up, right? Yeah.

The jury just loved it. And at the end of the trial, we pulled, you know. Yeah, we pulled the jury and the jury. They were the. He was the only witness on either side that they believed. Anybody believed. Yeah, yeah. The simplicity of it. But one of the other things that really appalled the jury was they had the witness, government witness up there, and they start asking him about, you know, what he’s done. He’s coming off with all these big crank buys. This crank buys that. And they said, well, is he in the. Is he in the courthouse today in the courtroom? And he said, yes.

And he said, would you identify? And he pointed at, you know, who Tony, Sarah is. Yeah, yeah. They point. That’s. Remember, Tony had the long hair. They thought Tony was a Hell’s Angel. Really. And then, I mean, he just. Madness in the courtroom. And the witness admitted that. He goes, well, I never met a Hell’s Angel. And he admitted that he was paid by the government to say these things. And, you know, that’s. That’s why they couldn’t. Well, you know, I was in the Giuliani case, was a big shylocking case. Legitimate leasing company had 1500 legit leases and about 30 Shylock bonds.

Right. I was alleged to have provided all the money. Honestly, I didn’t provide $1. It was a Jewish rabbi that provided the money. Long story. That’s why I got acquitted. But anyway, one witness gets up there, I’ll never forget, and the lawyers, you know, cross examine him and says, we owe a lot of money. He said, yeah. You owe this guy money? Yeah. You owe that guy money? Yeah. You owe this guy money? Yeah. He says, I might even owe you money. I borrow from everybody. Right. Just like that. And he said, well, what are you doing up on the stand? He said, I cooperated because I don’t want to pay the interest.

They were charging me. They’re charging me. How much could I pay? And he said, just like that. He said, they’re charging me ridiculous interest. Better I cooperate now. I don’t have to pay anything back. He was quite like that. The jury believed him. They did, yeah. And some of the guys got convicted based upon. I was acquitted, but some of them got convicted. I was straight out. I’m thinking about, do you Remember when we were at Terminal island, the kosher kitchen? Oh, yeah, yeah. And Roseanne, remember Rosario? Yeah. Yes. Rosario Gambino. He was my cellmate. Yeah, right.

Yes. Yeah. And thinking about some of the meals cooked out of there, but I, I’m, I’m laughing because I was the first non Jew to ever work in the kosher kitchen. Oh, were you? Yeah. But I knew the kosher cooking rules. So the warden came to me and he, he said, he’s looking at me and he goes, so you know, you know how to cook kosher? And I said, yeah, you know, the different pans and all that stuff, you got to use everything. Very strict rules. And I said, yeah, I grew up in a kosher della contessa.

My dad was a chef. And he looked at me and he goes, look, he goes, I know who you are. And he goes, I figure if you can run those crazy hells angels, he goes, you ought to be able to control 25 Jews. He goes, what do you think? I go, I don’t know about that. That’s fun. Do you remember? You know, you got to admit, Terminal island was one of the best places to do time. Yeah. You know, they closed it. I didn’t know that. Yeah, I just read about it recently. They closed it down.

They closed it or about to close it, but they’re definitely closing it down. I don’t know if it was financial. I don’t know what the reason was. You know, remember when you and I were down there? It was. I remember that on Saturdays you get eggs to order. Yes, you could. It was like a restaurant. Yeah, it was great. The salad bar, all that stuff. But anyways, in 2013, I wind up in Texas and talk about shocked. Bad food. Oh, my God, bad food. It’s a minimum security prison run like a medium prison, you know, all controlled movements, really overcrowded.

Yes. No, it wasn’t a case. It was a low security prison, but, you know, control movements, just terrible overcrowding. Six guys in a two man cell, just, you know, stacked three high. The. The golden age of the federal prison has left us, I guess. I know, it’s. I remember some of those places when they had me on diesel therapy and moved me around. Right. The worst place I was in was Oklahoma. El Reno. Yeah. What a sewer that place was. Now, see, I, I heard that you especially made them mad because they didn’t. They take you out of there for a while and you were gonna, you were supposed to return some money or something.

Yes, they gave me such a hot. But I’LL tell you. El Reno, that was the only play. I’m on a top bunk and I’ll never forget seeing roaches crawl across. I didn’t want to sleep in it. It was filthy, dirty away. Texas was. Yeah, terrible place, some of the places they brought us to. But Terminal island, if you had to do time, you know. There was one lieutenant there, I don’t know if you remember. It’s a Mexican guy. I think his name was Menende. I don’t remember exactly. Nice guy. He bailed me out of a couple of.

When I had a television in my room and one of these. Yeah, we couldn’t have TVs. Couldn’t have it. But I had a little black and white, right? And the. My caseworker hated me. She was a black woman, she hated me. And I said, what’s your problem with me? She says, all you Mafia guys, you don’t treat women the right way. What are you talking about? I’m married. I love my wife. She hated me. Anytime she can come at me, she would. So she. It’s a Saturday and she comes by the cell and she sees I have a TV in there.

So she takes it and she writes me a shot, right? So it was a holiday weekend I’ll never forget. So Tuesday morning, I’m waiting at the gate for this lieutenant to come in. I said, look, I don’t need a shot. I’m in the south yard. They’ll move me to the north, you know, the whole bit. So he squashed it and everything. So I’m in a cell one night in. In the south yard. And we had it made there in the south yard. And I had a single cell. And he sends a CO to my room, to my cell, and he brings me.

It’s like one o’ clock in the morning, and I go to see him. I said, what’s up? He says, let’s go have a drink. That’s what you’re talking about. He says, come on, there’s a bar. It’s open up here all night. I’m going to take you out in San Pedro. I says, lieutenant, are you out of your mind? I said, if anybody finds out, they’re going to send you to Guam. God knows what they’re going to do with me. They’ll say I escape or something. No, nobody’s going to know. I’m in control here tonight. I wouldn’t go.

He said, you’re actually refusing? I said, I ain’t going. I said, I want to do my time and get out of Here. But that’s how good a guy he was. And, you know, things were different back then. I don’t know if. Do you remember? He became a Hell’s angel, but at the time, he was in a club called the Satan Slaves. His name was Louis, Louis Roseberry. Big guy, very popular. I think I do remember him. Yeah. Yeah. He was having problems at home, and his wife was just running amok, drugs, people over in his house.

He went to the warden and he told the warden, he goes, look, this is what’s going on, because I need to go home, need to get the kids out of the environment. I need to get my mom over there, and I need to get rid of this woman. He goes, if you gave me 24 hours, he goes, I give you my word I’ll come back. The warden let him go. Let him go. And he showed back up. And, you know, I’ve told that story to people. I try to make people understand back then, and I think it was very prevalent in the organization you were hooked up with.

With as it was in the Hell’s Angels. Man was only as good as his word. And if you gave your word, yeah, it was everything, man. 100. 100. And, you know, Louie went to the guy, talked to a man to man, said, I gotta get. I gotta save my kids. I gotta get them out of there. She’s running amok. She’s drinking, she’s drugging. There’s guys coming in and out of the house. And he goes, would you. Would you do that for me? He let him. You know, that’s kind of a golden era. It’s like, you know, Michael, as we’re getting older now, you know, we’re talking about on the cusp of 80.

For myself, people just don’t have the respect anymore. It’s like they get on these computers and they’re removed from having. To. Having to answer for anything. Yeah. You know, it’s keyboard warriors. Yeah. It’s just. It’s rights. It’s. It’s terrible. It really is. These young men don’t have any respect anymore. They don’t even know what it is to really socialize or associate with people anymore. Right. You know, they rather just be on their phones or. You know, I was. I don’t know if you. If you heard about this whole thing, you know who Andrew Tate is? I do, yeah.

Okay. He’s a good friend of mine. Okay. I don’t mind saying it. A lot of people. No, I’m laughing because we’re just talking about Andrew Tate. Good friend. Of mine. So, you know, they go to this club, and this is Miami, in Miami, okay? And he’s with these other guys, Sneako. Who the hell knows It’s Sneako. They call him some other guy. Caligula or Korea. I never heard of these guys until this club. And one of them not going to say who decides to put on this music that’s anti Semitic, Right. Raising Hitler. I don’t even know the song.

And so Andrew and Tristan, who are. They’re good friends of mine, happen to be there. And now there’s this whole thing going on about it, you know, And I said, listen, I understand it’s an offensive song. There’s no question about it. And it’s in bad taste. I have a lot of Jewish friends. I grew up with Jews. A lot of Jewish friends. It was very offensive, no question about it. But now they ban these guys from all these clubs, nightclubs in Florida. Yeah, it’s like the extent that they’re taking this is crazy. It’s crazy and poor.

And I say poor Andrew, you know, because he’s. Let me tell you something about this guy. Every case that they tried to nail him on, total bs. His case in Romania, case in England, they tried to nail him here in California. He’s just. He’s a controversial guy. He says things to get people crazy. But at heart, he’s really a good guy. Him and his brother, they’re good guys, right? I got my wife with, like, really good friends, so. But I’m saying, okay, have you people ever listened to some of the rap music that’s out there when they’re killing people and murdering their girlfriends and doing all of that? They’re not banning these people, you know, you guys.

But I guess I’m getting off the point. The point is these young kids, man. Well, you know, now we sound like. Now everybody’s watching, going, a couple old men there. Exactly. That’s what they’re going to say. Yeah, you know what? I don’t really give a damn. I don’t give a damn either. And look, this is the deal, Michael. I think everybody gets their turn in the barrel. You had your turn in the barrel? Yeah, I had my turn in the barrel. John Gotti had his turn in the barrel. And now it’s a different era. It’s like, they’re not going to come after Michael.

They’re not going to come after George. You know, it’s what for. Yeah, exactly. But this guy is creating attention. And so if this guy’s getting attention, in a sense, it’s it’s removed a little bit. But if this guy’s getting attention, maybe if I go after this guy, I can get a little attention. Yeah. And that’s what they do. I’ll tell you an interesting story in 20. No, excuse me. 1999 or 98. I can’t remember. Time escapes me. It was The Hell’s Angels 50th anniversary. Big milestone in the cologne. What year was that? I think it was 98.

Or 99. I think 98, maybe. Yeah, I think it was 98. And. Yeah, because the club started, like, 48. 49. Yeah. Yeah. So we had a. A big party in San Bernardino where the club was birthed, and then the party moved up to Ventura, and we called it, like, a world run. Like, everybody would come there and, you know, celebrate the 50th. And the first party was in San Bernardino. The second party was in Ventura. Now, the head of the intelligence unit in Ventura, who was supposed to investigate the Hells Angels, specifically me, started a rumor that Sonny was retiring and George Christie was taking over, and that’s why everybody was coming to Ventura to celebrate.

His exact words were, to celebrate George Christie’s coronation as the new leader. And he knew Hell’s Angels weren’t structured that way. And the more I told him, no, that’s not what’s going on here, the louder he spoke those words. And it took me. Oh, maybe I’m a little dense. It took me a couple of years to figure it out. The reason he did that was because he made himself important by saying he was the closest link to the new leader of the Hells Angels. Had nothing to do with me. Had to do with him, his career.

You know, I’m now the foremost. Not only am I the most expert on the Hells Angels, I have him right here in Ventura with me. So it was really about him. It wasn’t about George Christie? Well, it was about George. I totally get it. 1. At one of the statements that I brought up with these cops on Jubilee, I said, listen, quite often, law enforcement is going to go after people with a name that, in turn can get them a promotion, media attention, whatever. Build their career. Yeah, build their career. And they said, no, we don’t do that.

We’re. You know, we. I said, come on, stop. I said, you mean to tell me if you had some regular burglar and you had a chance to nail John Gotti, where would you. The burglar can rob another 10 houses. You don’t care. You’re gonna go after Gotti because He makes your career. And how they respond to that. Yeah, they. They didn’t want to admit it. You know, they didn’t want to admit it. You know, they. They would. The guy that I’m sitting with won’t admit it, but all the other guys are laughing because they know it’s true.

Of course, it builds careers. Hey, John Gotti, when he got convicted, the prosecutor became a federal judge, right? I mean, these things are real. I didn’t know that, but yeah, happened. You know, one thing I told them, they said, well, they said, you know, we were afraid of you guys. I said, afraid of us? I said, we’re a law enforcement’s dream. They said, what do you mean? As you come after us, we don’t shoot back, we don’t run away. We put our hands out. You put the handcuffs on us. We go to jail and bail out or stay in one or the other? I said, what the hell are you.

Yeah. I said, what are you afraid of us for? I said, how do you respond? He said, well, you know, you guys had a reputation. I said, not against you. We don’t kill cops in this country. I said, give me one incident where one of us killed a cop or a law enforcement or agent or a judge. It’s not Italy. Italy’s different. We don’t do that here. Hands off. So don’t tell me, are they still doing that in Italy? I don’t hear about Italy. I haven’t heard about it. I think they cracked down pretty hard in Italy.

Yeah, they. They really did. I remember seeing a video of, like, a hundred defendants in a cage. In a cage? Yeah. Put them in a cage. Yeah, they. I mean, they. They still have control there. Yeah. Especially down south in Sicily. But, you know, this is the interesting thing. You. These. Some of these cops, they’re. They have a goal in mind. They’re trying to achieve something. And that. Achieve what they’re trying to achieve may be a book, maybe a movie script, it may be a judgeship, maybe a political ascending into a political position as a senator or whatever it may be.

You know, I get it. You know, you want to advance in your career, you go after something that can help you in every God, something that creates interest with the public. Exactly. Yeah. And makes the public feel safe. 100%. Exactly. So, you know, let me ask you this, George. When you. When somebody wanted to become a Hell’s angel, and they come in, did they come in with the mindset, well, these guys are criminals, and I can do something different in my life. I’m around guys that want to commit crimes, or is it. Hey, I’m just a motorcycle enthusiast, and I love to be part of a.

Of a club. It’s a brotherhood. What’s the mindset? That’s a good question, because I think at one time it was all about riding motorcycles and brotherhood. But now you’ve got people coming and they’re thinking, this is a little carte blanche for me. I put that patch on my back. Opens a lot of doors for me. I get a lot of deals, get drugs fronted to you. So you’ve got a mix of people. And in the old days, it was strictly about writing and brotherhood. But I think it’s. It’s conflicted, and I think. And I think we talked about this last time we were together on.

On your show. I felt we had reached a point where we became. The people rebelled against. You know, I joined the Hells Angels because, you know, I wanted an alternative lifestyle. I wanted to party. I wanted to have fun. I really was in the. I mean, really into motorcycles, really deep. I mean, you know, could build a motorcycle from scratch. You know, I didn’t have to buy a complete motorcycle. I could go out and I knew what parts I had to get to build that bike from the ground up. But it’s not like that anymore. I think what changed a lot of that was reached a point in time when people could walk into the Harley Davidson shop and buy a custom motorcycle off the showroom floor put together.

And I. I think that it. It. It really changed the spirit of the whole thing, you know, Let me ask you. When guys came in, did they. Was there anybody in their life that say, I don’t. I don’t want to be a criminal. I just want to ride? Sure, there were guys. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, this is the. See, here we go. This is the problem. You get a guy comes around the club, and perhaps you’ve got somebody in the club that’s a hustler, and you know what it’s like. Certain guys can spot somebody go, like, this guy could make some money, and they introduce them to.

To that particular life or that facet of. Of the club, and it. You know, it’s tempting. You know. You know, you go to work and you. You make $500 a week. You know, you go to work for a couple hours and, you know, you make $5,000. It’s very seductive. And, you know, it’s. I always say the flesh is weak. The spirit could be strong, but the flesh is weak. And that’s why it’s so easy to set people up. Like the. When the cops provide something that’s, you know, just irresistible. Absolutely. It’s. It’s. How do you resist such stuff? It’s difficult.

It’s hard. It’s hard going back to. That’s. That’s. And they know that. They know that. That’s why they send people in. So let me. Let’s. Let’s turn the page a little bit, you and I. I always say this, George. You get involved. In my former life, if you die of old age and you die free, you’ve really accomplished something. Right. Because. And who’s done that? Everybody I know from my former life is either dead or in prison. Right. Mostly dead. Right. Everybody, so. Me, too. Yeah. All right. So you’re. You’re pushing 80, I’m pushing 75. Three quarters of a century, when I think about it, sounds so old.

But we’re very fortunate. We are very, very fortunate. And I know, I know you’re a religious man, and I believe in a higher power, but I’ve got to tell you, Michael, sometimes I sit back and I go, how did I get here? Why did I make it this far? And everybody else is dead. I’ve got one friend from the old days that’s alive and he’s battling cancer. He thinks he’s going to beat it, but it’s an uphill battle. So what’s your answer to that? Why you? I don’t know. I don’t know. I think about some of the things I was involved with, and maybe if I’d left five minutes earlier or five minutes later, you wouldn’t be here.

I wouldn’t be here. And I mean, I had murder contracts on me from other bike clubs. Suspect of my own people. And you know what that’s like that. That is. That’s really hard to. But I think in the. In the lifestyle, kind of like that happened. Correct. And you knew that. And when I. I got into the Hells Angels, there was a rough decade. Like the 70s were probably the roughest decade. There was a lot of what law enforcement called in, house cleanings within the club, you know, club on club violence, if you will. And I.

I don’t know how I escaped it. You know, my vice president, Jesse, longtime friend, murdered unsolved. So you don’t have any. Any answer for yourself. Why me? You know, I see I’m able to answer that because I believe, you know, I’m a person of faith, that God had a different plan and a purpose for my life. It’s the Only what is that plan and purpose? Well, you know, listen, since. Since I came home and none of these things I ever planned. I mean, last thing I thought I’d ever be doing is what we’re doing right now or, you know, speaking all over the world.

But, you know, people look at me, hey, if you can get out of a bad life and turn your life around, then maybe we can too. And how did you do it? And, well, you know, I’m out there, basically. I don’t like to use the word preach because I don’t preach. But sharing the gospel, right? And so it’s been impactful for a lot of people. So I’m saying, well, maybe that was his purpose in my life and that’s why I’m still here. I can’t figure out any other reason, George, because, look, I’m not gonna. I always say this, you know, and maybe you’ll, you’ll understand when I say that there was a lot of good people in my former life.

People. Oh, come on, Michael. You guys were all killers. And you, you’re criminals. But that doesn’t make him a bad guy. That’s what I said. I said, listen, there’s an age old question. Why do good people do bad things? Could be a lot of different reasons, right? Listen, I know I did some bad things, but I also know when I did them, I was pretty uncomfortable. I did it anyway. I take responsibility out of conscience and I understand that. Out of conscience. And, you know, and I think for me it’s. It’s. God really judges our hearts.

Not so much our behavior, but it’s our hearts. And then at some point in time, you realize, you know what? This stuff, I shouldn’t have done this. It was wrong. And, and that’s how. But, but there was a lot of guys like that. Everybody that I know, look, I know killers in that life. And some of them, George, they just killed because they wanted to kill bad guys and they enjoyed it. You get a Roy Demeo, he’s dead. You get a Greg Scarpa, who I was with a lot because he was. He’s still alive. No, he’s dead.

No. He was a boss, wasn’t he? That flipped. He was. He was a captain. Captain. He was a captain along with me, but he was working undercover for 20 years. When I heard that, I got nervous because we were together a lot. I. I was. I didn’t like the guy, quite honestly. He. Nobody really. Did he make you uncomfortable? Yes. He was one of those guys you just don’t want to be Around. Exactly. I know, I know. People like that, you don’t want to be around because you don’t know what they’re capable. Well, you know what they’re capable of, but you don’t know if they’re going to do it.

It just wasn’t in good company, you know what I mean? I could avoid this guy, but I couldn’t because I was with him a lot. Let me ask you this. Like, I’m not going to get into specifics about myself, but, you know, I created a reputation in the 70s, you know, you had a reputation as well. In the late 80s. I went on this real quest to resolve all the griefs within the outlaw culture. Between the gripes and the griefs and whatnot, between the Allah by close. And, you know, you wonder if on a subconscious level, is that your conscience trying to make reparations, if you will.

I believe it is. I believe that’s crossed my mind. Yeah, I believe it is. Because your heart says something differently than what your actions were. Right. You know, but there’s got to be a reason, George. I mean, look, you turned your life around. You know, you’re doing good things now for the past several years. You wrote good books. Well, let me ask you this. One of the things that really bothered me when I came home on parole, probation, whatever, they changed the name. It seemed like the probation people, they didn’t give a damn. They never asked me how he was doing personally.

They. All they seemed to want was the money for the fine. That’s sure. And if you’re doing anything, Christy, we’re going to catch you. Yeah. And I go, why do you have to be, you know, accusing me or something? And I asked the supervisor, once my probation officer was in there, I said, you know, I’ve been home three or four months now. And I go, you guys haven’t once asked me how my re entry was. Or you may make everybody take all those phony classes. Remember the reentry classes and all that stuff? I go, I go, do you even give a damn? You know, what they cared about, Michael.

Then when I did Outlaw Chronicles, they want to know how much money I was making. And they wanted to take all them, every cent from me of, you know, of work, the checks I was getting. Because they said, we don’t think you should profit from your criminal past. I don’t know if you ever experienced that with parole or probation. Yeah, they. Forget it. They were all, well, I got violated. You know, I don’t know how big your fine was. Was. Well, my fine was 15 million, right. And my forfeiture was 5 million. So it’s 20 million total.

But then here’s what happened to me. When they were trying to, when, when I refused to cooperate, they were really on me. And when they violated me, they violated me for not filing my income tax return. But I said, wait a second. I said, my lawyer told me not to file my income tax return because you people are claiming I got hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign banks. And I don’t know if you’re going to get an informant that’s going to tell you that’s true and then you’re going to say I lied on and put me back.

So he told me, don’t file. You don’t file. It’s a misdemeanor. If you file fraudulently, it’s a felony. So I said, okay. I said, but every month I fill out a financial statement to my parole prob. Every single month. I said, so I’m not looking to deceive. I’m protecting myself. We don’t care. The judge said, you’re supposed to file. He said, it’s a good argument or you’re supposed to file. And then he gives me four years, which was the maximum on the violation, where for non filing, I could only got a year because it’s a misdemeanor.

Right. And that’s how they sent me back for four years and kept me in a hole for 29 months. So, you know, they play their games, they maneuver. But I have to tell you this, my parole officer at the time, actually pro it was probation officer, actually testified on my behalf. You know, I had one when I was on state probation, parole, whatever, high control they call it. Probably one of the most honest guys I ever met in my life. Really went to bat for me. Now, he was stated the federal people were terrible. Yeah, they just, they basically told me, we know you’re still active, you’re still a member.

We’re not buying into this. You. No, they told me the same. Yeah, we’re not buying into this. Tell me, how do you, how do you cope with people making accusations? Like I get this, you know, informant thing all the time. We know you were an informant. Listen, I mean, you don’t testify against anybody. You don’t give them anything that going to get anybody arrested. George, you know what it is? Especially when you’re a social media guy and people and you got, you know what happened with me, all these other mob influencers, we’ll call them that social media guys who I never met.

And never knew were knocking me because I had the most popularity online. So you know how you were YouTube? Yeah, I was a target. So they mention you and they get views. I didn’t even know these people. And they start saying things, he’s a rat. He cooperated. This and that. And I said, listen, here’s how I’m going to. I’m not going to respond to all this nonsense. I’m going to tell you this. Nothing I ever told the Feds. I talked to them. No question. I said, I manipulated. Nothing I ever told the feds ever put anybody in prison.

Never. I said I would never go to that extent. What I told him was mostly about me. I testified 35 years ago in front of the Senate investigating committee. And I said, people, nobody goes to jail for Senate. They’re all pomp and circumstance. They’re all nothing. It’s a show. I said, yeah, it’s a show. So I maneuvered my way through, and when the feds realized that I wasn’t giving them anything, that’s when they threw me back in prison and said, you’re done. So I said, I don’t care that your people are mad at me, that I preserved my life and my family after my whole family was destroyed.

Mother, father, brother, sisters, every one of them. I said, I saw it was time to get out the RICO Statute. My best partner, that we made hundreds of millions of dollars together, became an informant against me, Right? I said, we’re in trouble. Forget it. This life is in trouble. So I look for an exit strategy. That’s all it was, you know, And a lot of these guys say, you know, what did they say? You know, you don’t want to go to prisoners. What are you talking about? I went to prison free. I did my every day of my time.

Right. I had no cooperation agreement. I did every single day of my time. They make things up. Does it bother you? It did in the beginning. It doesn’t anymore because I find it less. It’s less effective. Doesn’t affect me like it did. I haven’t got over it completely. You know, somebody goes, yeah, you ratted on everybody in the club. I mean, well, who’d I rat on? Who went to jail? You know, Exactly. What trial did I testify at? Well, you’re gonna get the haters no matter what. Yeah. They don’t listen. And, you know, people online, you know, you could be talking about something, and they come out with stuff that has nothing to do what you’re saying.

It just. It’s. Look, you have to have thick skin. If you’re going to be online, if you’re going to put yourself out there, you can’t do that. But 95% of the people understand that, and they’re fine. And it’s this, it’s just, it’s nonsense. But I, it don’t bother me anymore. It really doesn’t. George. The prosecutor on my case, the prosecutor wrote in his book, he was John Gotti’s prosecutor, too. He said, franzese ran us around, he never gave us anything, and we put him back in prison. He said it, and people still don’t listen to it.

Right. And which, which prosecutor was this? John Gleason. John Gleason. I’m trying to put a face. John Gleason, he’s the one that became a federal judge. But he was on my case before he was on Gotti’s case. And he said, francis never gave us anything. As a matter of fact, Sammy Gravano. Sammy Gravano said, I want to do the same thing Francis did. And Gleason said, nobody will ever get a deal like that again because he didn’t tell us anything. You know, and look, you know, George, I’ve been that I don’t want to, you know, I, I’ve always tried to figure things out, and I understood the mentality of the government, and so I used what I could to lure them in.

And the whole thing, all I wanted was, leave me alone. I’m really out of the life, right? I didn’t, I didn’t benefit any other way. I said, just leave me alone. I did every day of my time. I didn’t. Just leave me alone. I’m really out, right? And that’s all I wanted to accomplish. I understand. You know, it. When I wrote my first book, I. Ten years ago, and I was still perhaps trying to find myself, where I fit in, where my place was. And I, I left the book. I felt like I left the readers perhaps hanging, you know, a little bit.

Now, you wrote a great. Another book. You got another out now. Yeah. Crossing the Rubicon. Crossing the Rubicon. Interesting title. Yeah. And this is more of a insight into my personal relationship with, with Sonny Barger. And here’s a guy that, and maybe you can identify with this. Sometimes I love the guy as a leader and a brother. Sometimes I hated him, you know, totally identify when he, when he would do things that there was no explanation other than the fact he just wanted to do it, you know, I, I, we were negotiating with the Bandidos, and we were in a serious killing war.

With these guys in Europe. And we were trying to. Myself and the bandido leader were trying to keep it from bleeding in the United States. And I had a meeting set up, and everything was finalized. You know, we were going to walk away with a sweet deal. Wouldn’t have hurt the bandidos. They were kind of giving us a little bit because I think they respected us. And I was going to get Sonny to come to this meeting. He would not go to the meeting. Really? Yeah, he would not come to the meeting. I said, you know, Sonny, if you walk into that meeting with me, I would.

You have no idea. It’s going to be like the Pope walked in the room, you know, And I go, you just need to come, and you don’t have to say much, and I’ll do all the talking. And he said, no. And I said, why? Because I just don’t like him. That was. That was it. That was it. He just didn’t like them, you know, and he didn’t care if it made the club better, stronger. He just. For whatever reason, it wasn’t going to acquiesce to him. But how. How I decided to write this book was. Got a phone call three years ago, three and a half years ago now.

Three years, four months, five months. And Hell’s Angels aren’t supposed to talk to me. Remember, he called me and he. He said, hey. And he used the term Ralph. Ralph was a term we. That’s what we called Sonny. That was his real name. So people that were close to him say, hey, you know, you want to talk to Ralph? You know, Right? And he said to me, he said, hey, if you want to reconcile with Ralph, you need to do it soon, because he’s not going to make it much longer. And that’s really what prompted me to write the book.

I couldn’t sleep. I got up, drank some coffee, made some strong espresso, and I started pounding out on the keyboard. And I came up with this book. Took me three years to write it, but was I going to call him or not call him, you know, and at the end of the book, of course, you know, I reveal what I did and why I did it. But it’s. I think it’s a book that has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And that was one of the things in my first book, first memoir, the end left the reader kind of hanging.

I had just quit the club. I mean, there was a. Supposedly a murder contract on me. There was this on me. I didn’t know what was going to happen. And this ending is more concrete. Plus, I give insight into being a Hell’s angel leader in everyday activities of being a boss, you know. You know what it’s like. It’s some real, you know, you were a leader of men. And those type of men, you better be on your best game, man, when you get around them, because they’re all looking for an opening, no doubt, perhaps to take your place, whatever deals you got going.

And a lot of animosity grows. It’s like, God, Michael, why’d you let me in on that deal? You know, I heard what you got going. You can, you know, give me a taste. Yeah. Especially when you’re younger and the older guys have resentment just because they’ve been there longer and they feel they’re entitled to. Ran into that. But let me. The title is interesting because for those of you that don’t know a famous expression, crossing the Rubicon. When Caesar crossed the Rubicon from Italy, from Gaul, went into Italy. And the saying means that there’s no turning back.

Yeah, that’s it. Once you’ve gone, you’re gone. There’s no turning back. That’s it. That was. That’s what I came, you know, the conclusion is, you know, the title. Yeah. And I. I think that, you know, I guess every author says this is my best work. Yeah. But I feel this is, you know, my best work. I’ve come a long ways in 10 years with my writing and dug deep, told a lot of stories, incidents I never talked about before. And I kind of waited out, almost like I was presenting it to a jury to perhaps let the reader decide why I made the decision I made.

And you know. You know what it’s like. Yeah. You walk away from that lifestyle, you know, everybody’s got a theory why you did it. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, going to be the next book I read on a plane. I read on a plane. Do you. Yeah, And I travel a lot, so that’s. That’ll be my next read. Well, I’m going to. I’ll send you one. Yes. Thank you. Well, you know, George, it was about two years ago when we. We last spoke. Has it been that long? Yeah, close to that. And I hope we can do this in another two years and then maybe another two years after that.

I hope so. How’s that? Yeah. Yeah, I’m. I’m. If I’m around, I’m on board. Well, listen, I know people loved it last time. Listen, it’s two. I hate to say it, old guys. Yeah. You know, hopefully the voice of reason and, you know, a lot of these young guys out there today, they get infatuated with the lifestyle that we led. They do. And. But, you know, to put the finishing touch on it, you’re a survivor at 80. Everybody else is dead, gone, in prison. Maybe I’m a survivor at 75. And they’re all gone. And they should take our example and not these young turks out there that are still trying to.

And I think so. And, you know, one of the lines in the book is, you know, old man John, when old man John quit the club, I just was brokenhearted. I didn’t understand. And he looked at me and he goes, it’s a young man’s game, George. Yeah, And I, you know, I didn’t get it at the time. Yeah, but I think it is, Michael. Oh, there’s no doubt. And you know what? It’s a young man’s game. But it’s getting harder to play right now. It’s easier to play during autumn. It was. Now it’s getting harder to play.

It’s a different mentality. The mentality, the. There’s not even any respect in that culture, in that world. And I mean, it just seems to be people lie, they’re deceitful. And you know what, George, though, this is true, and I think you’ll see it the same way. It was very attractive because it’s a brotherhood, guys having each other’s back, you know, respect, allegedly. Honor, discipline. Yeah, but I mean, these are really attractive qualities that you. You look for. You know, I don’t think there’s anything more powerful, maybe a marriage than a group of men bonding together and having each other’s backs in the brotherhood.

It’s so attractive. You know, at its peak, it could be beat. Yeah, but, you know, before all the double dealing and the backstabbing and. Michael, was it always like that? Or did. Did we wake up? Did we. Did our eyes open at some point in time, or was it always like that? No, I think it was. I think it was always like that, George. If you look at our history, you know, in our life, it was always backstabbing and, you know, always. Right. It’s just that it became so much more prominent when the government really started to expose.

I think really it has to do with a lot of the informants that talked and talked and talked. And, you know, one thing I have to say, you know, a lot of guys that became informants and now have platforms, they always go back and say, you know what? The reason I did this, because I got screwed. They didn’t do this to me. They didn’t do that for me. And I went to jail. Nobody gave me money. And I looked at as weak excuses because I said, look, we knew we were getting. We didn’t join the Boy Scouts.

You know, we were street guys. We didn’t. We didn’t join the boy Scouts. And you probably screwed people the same way you’re saying people screwed you. Because that’s how it goes on the street. Right. So to use that an excuse, I went to jail. Nobody gave me money. I mean, come on. Yeah, I got robbed blind when I went to jail. Well, that’s what happened. The standard procedure. Yeah. And I don’t know if anybody. I don’t see. I don’t know exactly how things are structured. Like when I went to jail in 2002, when I went to jail, and this is the interesting thing.

This is why I say, did my eyes Open in 1984? I went. Or 86. I went to jail when I was there with you. 87. I mean, I came home, I was treated like a king, a victorious hero. You know, I had taken on the government and beat him. When I went to jail in 2002, people after my job, after my businesses, and I just. I came back and something happened to me. And in. In jail, and my mom was dying of cancer. The Red Cross came. I, you know, you know, I got a. I was in the hole, I got a call, and, you know, I had the microphones in your cells.

Dress out, Krista. You got a Red Cross visit. Red Cross visit. So I get dressed and I go out there. They came there, told me my mom was dying, and I was so mad that they’d come there to tell me, you know, my mom was. She. You’re not gonna. You’re not gonna get out of here with her alive, you know, just because of the court. You know how court is and all that stuff. And I was angry, Michael. I was real angry. And the Red Cross priest said, I don’t know what domination. He was a Christian.

He had a uniform on the Red Cross. He goes, will you pray with me? And I said, no. I said, but I’ll watch you pray. And I told him. I said, you know what? I said, I want my eyes opened when I’m on the street. I go, anybody can get religion in here. I go look at the surroundings. I said, I want to have my power. I want my money. I want my motorcycle. I want my. You know, I just went down the line and I said, but you. You pray for my mom. And he did.

You know, my. My mom lasted. I don’t know how she did. The doctors don’t even know she lasted until I made bail. Finally, really, I came home. She died the next day. Like, wow. And that was her will. Yeah, her will. And I put something what just still rings out in my head and still stays with me today. I said I wanted my eyes opened on the street, and when I came back, I looked at the club and my club life. Completely different. Yeah. Something happened. And, you know, I had a line, I had a stage play I wrote, and I talk about that in my stage play, but in the stage play, I talk about the Twin Towers falling.

And I said, you know, the Twin Towers were the only things that fell that year I was gone. I said, I think the brotherhood of the club vanished and fell with them. And I tell the audience, you know, my eyes, you know, I asked to have my eyes open, and they were. I, you know, like I said, I have my own ideas about religion, but it’s. There’s something out there, you know, and like, you say, why am I here? Yeah. You know, and I guess I would just tell people that are coming home, people that are changing their lifestyles, just hang in there, man.

And. Well, George, I want to tell you, and I feel responsible to say this, and, you know, one of the things I do, you know, I speak at churches and you name it over the years, and always talk about my faith, but I will say this. I. I’m going to have the same conversation with Andrew Tate, who was a Christian, became Muslim. I don’t knock anybody’s faith. The only time I’ll knock a faith. If you’re a Satanist. Right. Just worship evil. Yeah, I don’t like that, but anything. I respect everybody’s faith. Sure. Right. And I do as well.

Yes. And I think we’re supposed to. I. I believe that Christianity is the one true faith, but that’s my personal belief. But I will tell you this. You know, I believe strongly there is a heaven and there is a hell. I believe in eternity. And as a Christian, we believe there’s only one way to get to heaven. And all I say is this. You know, you think of the worst thing that ever happened to you in your life or the worst thing that ever could happen to you in your life and think of eternity in the wrong place, in that never ending.

This is what I contemplated on a lot when I was in. In the hole, because, you know, I developed a very healthy fear of hell when I was in the hole. But I believed in it, the whole hell. It’s hell because I say, listen, if this is what hell is like and never ending, I don’t want to live. Who wants to live like that? You know, I said, look, you don’t want to live, you don’t want to live. There were times when I said, just close my eyes. I don’t want to wake up. I got to watch my family come and visit me.

I visited my father for 25 years. Just take me away. Who wants to live like this? Do you ever ask yourself, how did I wind up here? What are. Oh, yeah, absolutely, I. Mad at myself. Look in the mirrors. You’re an idiot. How did you. How. How did you do this? You had everything going for you. Idiot. I was very angry with myself, but. So all I tell people is, you really need to find out where you’re going when you leave this world. You really do. It is. Especially as we get older, because we’re not guaranteed another day in life.

We know that it’s very, very important. So I encourage you in these. Whatever time you have, you really look into that. I mean it, George, because it’s serious and we’re going to be in eternity in one place or the other. There’s no question about it. Well, I’m going to tell you, the second person this week that’s had this conversation, well, there’s a reason for that. Maybe something’s happening. There’s a reason for that. And of course, I encourage you to look into, you know, our faith, Christianity, but take it serious, because, you know, one of the regrets that I have with my dad, you know, who passed at 103, I know, it just amazes me.

And I don’t think I spent enough time with him talking about what we’re talking about now. And I feel guilty about that. I really do. I don’t know where my father ended up, but. And so I feel like a responsibility to talk to people that I care about and. And just let them think about that. Think about never ending. Where am I going to be at the end of this life here on Earth? Because we’re passing through here. Very important. I’m going to leave you with that. All right? And also going to say, hope we do this another two years.

Another two years after that, at 90, will be two old guys maybe walking with a cane, sitting down in this chair. Let’s set the dates now. Let’s do it. Okay, let’s do it. So what is it? It’s. What’s today’s date? Producer. Today’s Date is. Today’s the 23rd. 23rd. The 23rd. So let’s not even go two years. 24th. The 24th. All right. Let’s go right after New Year, all right? In 20. 27. 27. Okay. Yes. All right. We’ll do it. All right. We’ll do it. We’ll shake hands on it. I’m gonna shake hands on it with you, Michael, as always, it’s a pleasure.

You know, I’ve known you for a lot of years now, and every time I see you, man, you raise my spirits. Well, I hope so. And listen, we don’t have to wait a year before we can get together. Maybe with the wives, we’ll go out for dinner. Maybe we’ll have pizza. Frozen pizza. That’s another deal. No. You know why? Because I’m going to tell you. I guarantee you this is the best frozen pizza you’ll ever eat. And if I didn’t tell you it was frozen, you wouldn’t know it was frozen. That’s how good it is. Okay? So when you serve it, it don’t tell me, and I’m not going to tell you, okay? And you’re just going to have it, and then you’re going to.

You’re going to see for yourself. I’m waiting for it now. That’s a deal. Okay. All right, Michael. All right. Thanks a lot, sir. All right. Well, there you have it, my friends. Very interesting conversation. I enjoyed talking with George. You know when two old timers get together and we kind of reminisce about our former lives, our current lives. We’re both happily married right now to very good women. So it’s just a good conversation. He’s got a new book out. Make sure you pick it up and read it. I think you’ll enjoy it. He put his heart in this one.

He said, so enjoy it. So there you go. And listen, friends, how do I always leave you? Same way. Be safe. You know how my feelings are about that. Be healthy. Same way. And yes, God bless each and every one of you. Family, friends, loved ones, your communities, your neighborhoods. And yes, God bless America. Because we need his blessings right now. See you next time. Take care.
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