➡ The Paranoid American Podcast, launched in 2012, explores hidden truths and mysteries of our world, from secret societies to mind control. The host interviews Cameron Harmon, a military veteran and criminal psychology enthusiast, who shares his experiences and insights into dark personalities and cults. The discussion also touches on the military’s potential connection to mind control and the manipulation of mass psychology.
➡ The text discusses the psychological tests and mind control techniques used in different environments, such as military training and academia. The author suggests that these methods, similar to those used in the infamous MKUltra program, are designed to assess individuals’ mental strength and susceptibility to influence. The text also explores the idea that academia, like the military, can be a platform for indoctrination, subtly shaping individuals’ thoughts and beliefs. The author concludes by expressing concern about the potential dangers of such influence in our society.
➡ The text discusses the difficulty in understanding and rehabilitating violent offenders, particularly those who commit extreme crimes. It suggests that conventional science and medicine have not been successful in this area, and sometimes the actions of these individuals seem inexplicable. The text also mentions the Son of Sam murders, suggesting they may have involved cult activity. Finally, it promotes various products from Paranoid American and nasacomic.com.
➡ Cults often attract people by promising self-improvement and spiritual growth, but they can lead to harmful situations and financial debt. They use a method called ‘foot in the door’, where they gradually introduce their beliefs and practices to new members. Despite the negative aspects, people often stay in cults due to a psychological phenomenon called cognitive dissonance, where they struggle to accept they’ve made a mistake. Cults can be based on various ideologies, not just satanism, and they often borrow elements from new age spiritualism and other belief systems.
➡ Parsons and L. Ron Hubbard, influenced by Alistair Crowley’s teachings, performed rituals in the desert, which some believe led to the creation of Scientology and other similar groups. These groups often focus on self-importance and individualism, which can lead to a sense of superiority and egoism. Cults often use similar methods to recruit and control members, leading to speculation about a common source of these tactics. Some cults, like the Oneida community, have even transitioned into successful businesses, while others are linked to infamous figures like Charles Manson. There are also theories about connections between cults and government agencies like the CIA, but these remain unproven.
➡ The text discusses various conspiracy theories and cults, including the Phoenix program in Vietnam, the Manson family, and the People’s Temple cult. It explores the idea that cult leaders often have dark, manipulative personalities, using their power to control and exploit their followers. The text also questions whether individuals who naturally possess manipulative traits are inherently dark, or if these traits can develop innocently and then be used for nefarious purposes.
➡ The text discusses the nature of dark personalities, particularly serial killers, and how they can manipulate others. It suggests that some people may be born with a predisposition towards such behavior, and that lying and getting away with it can exacerbate this. The text also explores the idea of training a serial killer to use their tendencies for good, as depicted in the TV show Dexter, but concludes that this is unlikely due to their lack of empathy and remorse. Finally, it discusses how some serial killers, like Edmund Kemper, have been able to manipulate the system and even the police due to their intelligence and charm.
➡ A man befriended local cops so well that they didn’t believe him when he confessed to murder. The story raises questions about the number of intelligent, undetected serial killers. A theory suggests that the prevalence of serial killers in the 60s was due to lead exposure, which decreased after lead was removed from paint and gasoline. The discussion also explores the possibility of a serial killer in Austin, Texas, where many men have mysteriously drowned in a lake, and the similarities between different types of killers, regardless of their methods.
➡ The text discusses the psychological issues behind violent offenders, such as serial killers, and how they lack empathy. It suggests that therapy and medication might help, but it’s challenging as these individuals often manipulate the therapy process. The text also explores the idea of teaching these individuals empathy for themselves as a way to prevent reoffending. Lastly, it discusses how certain jobs, like corrections officers, might attract individuals with dark personality traits due to the power they hold, but it doesn’t necessarily turn them into violent offenders.
➡ The text discusses the importance of intent in criminal cases, particularly in relation to violent crimes. It questions why intent matters so much, especially when people can lie about their intentions. The text also explores the role of forensic psychologists in detecting lies and understanding the mindset of criminals. It concludes by highlighting how criminals can try to manipulate their psychological evaluations, but trained professionals can often see through their lies.
➡ Forensic psychology is used in courtrooms to elicit certain responses from individuals. This technique was developed by the FBI’s behavioral analysis unit and can be effective in revealing hidden truths from pathological liars. The text also discusses a variety of conspiracy theories and beliefs, rating them on a scale of believability. Lastly, it questions the effectiveness of pharmaceuticals and religion in treating lack of empathy and violent behavior.

I refuse to believe that all these individuals came up with this idea on their own and that they all just naturally had this similar way of doing things. That doesn’t make any sense. Even Charles Manson is connected to another cult that came from the UK. But again, it’s like this giant web of where they’re all connected in some way, shape or form. Good evening, listeners, brave navigators of the enigmatic and the concealed. Have you ever felt the pull of the unanswered, the allure of the mysteries that our existence? For more than a decade, a unique comic publisher has dared to dive into these mysteries, unafraid of the secrets they might uncover.

This audacious entity is paranoid American. Welcome to the mystifying universe of the paranoid american podcast. Launched in the year 2012, Paranoid American has been on a mission to decipher the encrypted secrets of our world. From the unnerving enigma of mkultra mind control, to the clandestine assemblies of secret societies. From the awe inspiring frontier of forbidden technology, to the arcane patterns of occult symbols in our very own pop culture, they have committed to unveiling the concealed realities that lie just beneath the surface. Join us as we navigate these intricate landscapes, decoding the hidden scripts of our society and challenging the accepted perceptions of reality.

Folks, I’ve got a big problem on my hands. There’s a company called Paranoid American making all these funny memes and comics. Now, I’m a fair guy. I believe in free speech as long as it doesn’t cross the line. And if these AI generated memes dare to make fun of me. They’re crossing the line. This is your expedition into the realm of the extraordinary, the secret, the shrouded. Come with us as we sift through the world’s grand mysteries, question the standardized narratives, and brave the cryptic labyrinth of the concealed truth. So strap yourselves in, broaden your horizons, and steel yourselves for a voyage into the enigmatic heart of the paranoid american podcast, where each story, every image, every revelation brings us one step closer to the elusive truth.

Paranoid american podcast. Today we’ve got Cameron Harmon, who’s got a podcast, he’s got a book. They both go by the same name. Make a note of this, write it down, search for it. It’s called what’s under the mask? And that’s a book, and it’s a podcast. And we’re going to talk about, I think, a whole litany of different really cool subjects today. Dark personalities and serial killers and cults and online trolling and maybe even, like, academic protests. We’re going to bounce around a little bit, but I think it’s going to be centered on, I guess, mass psychology and a few different dark avenues.

Right. Did I do a decent enough job of. Yeah, I’d say so. I think that sounds great. All right, well, um, you know, again, what’s under the mask? Book and podcast. I want to ask, why do you like dark things? Why aren’t we talking about, I don’t know, the language of plants right now or, like, when’s the best time to harvest strawberries? Yeah, that’s a great question. I just, personally, for me, served eight years in the military, so I’ve. I’ve kind of been around dark people in my life, and then I worked in a jail for a year as an intern, and in that time, I got to meet some pretty dark individuals.

And that, I feel like that experience is what really got me started in the route of criminal psychology, if you will. What military branch did you go into? I was in the army. And what was the mentality for going into the army? Was this straight out of high school, or was it slightly after that or what? Yeah, it was after high school, actually. I mean, actually, I was in the army while I was in high school. I pretty much is already in by my junior year. I was in a thing called the delayed entry program. But I, you know, I was around for 911.

I was a kid when it happened, and I believed that we had to go get the bad guys, and the bad guys were there, and I was just basically trying to do my part. Starship troopers meme here. Yeah, exactly. Because I was in the military during. I was actually in boot camp when 911 happened. No kidding. Yeah, I joined before there was any kind of war. Like, there was even a hint of any of that. So I’m always curious to, like, what people’s motivation is getting in, getting out. But I’m also really curious. What did you think of boot camp? Like, what’s your general impression if you had to give it a Yelp rating right now, what’s your Yelp rating for bootcamp? Three out of ten would not recommend.

But here’s an interesting fact. I actually did basic training twice. Fun. Did you get washed down, or was there a glitch in the system? What happened? So the first, I told you I was in high school. I started in high school as a junior, so I started off as a reservist, but the goal was to do a year in the reserves while I was in high school and then switch to active duty. Here’s the kicker. What they told me was that when I would go active duty, I wouldn’t have to do basic training again. Yeah, you’re laughing, you know, already, um, that I would just do the.

The ait. The school. Right. Well, the crux of it is that I was an eleven bravo, an infantry guy, so there is no real ait for infantry dudes. It’s just basic, like, prolonged basic training. So, long story short, I get there and I’m, like, walking around and I see all these privates running around getting screamed at. And I was kind of like, man, this seems odd for these guys are supposed to be like 16 weeks in or something like that. That seems not right. And so I pulled one of them to the side and said, hey, what week are you guys in? And he’s like, oh, we just completed week two.

Please tell my parents to come get me. Yeah, basically, yes. The main reason I laugh, too, is just the phrase, you know. Well, they told me, and I just. It’s the most common story ever, and it doesn’t sound like it would be real, but I’m telling you, anyone listening out there, anything, how do you know your recruiter is lying? As if their mouth is moving. Yeah, exactly. Recruiter ever tells you, except for maybe when to show up at maps or maybe, like, who they represent in terms of what military branch, those are the two things that I might expect the recruiter to not lie about.

Everything else is a million percent lies. In fact, take what they’re saying and invert that, and it’s probably. Anyways, I’m actually kind of glad that. That we started out talking about the military because we’re going to essentially get into serial killers and colts. But I feel what better of an entry point than the military, which is kind of the one state endorsed version that is the door that opens to these, both of these avenues. And to preface this, this is the paranoid american podcast. I get a little bit deep into conspiratorial thinking, although I have been told I’m less paranoid than most people might expect.

But I firmly believe that boot camp is just straight up an extension of mkultra programming from the 1950s, specifically anything that revolves around trauma based programming anytime. That, and the reason I even think this is because I kind of saw it firsthand, and I saw my very first night at boot camp was the thing that convinced me mind control was real. And tell me how far off based I am from thinking this way. Right? Tell me if it’s whackadoo, I want to hear that. But I remember showing up and we’re all getting led into the barracks for the very first time.

Everyone’s got hair, and they got their civilian clothes and their backpack with who knows what the hell’s in it. They thought they were going to need and boot camp that you don’t even get. You know what I mean? They just take it away from you immediately. But I remember people coming in, and there would be three drill instructors. Like, you would. You would have to go through sort of, like, the gauntlet as you went into the door. And one of them was standing by the showers. One of them was standing with his back towards the other bay, and another one was standing with his back towards the current bay with all the beds in it.

So as people would come in, one drill sergeant would scream at him to like, go unpack your stuff. Go pick out a bed, whatever the other drill sergeant would be telling them, get in the shower. Go take a shower. Go brush your teeth. Like, each of these guys, like, their mentality was, I need to get these guys to do my thing, and it’s a game. It was absolutely a game, but I kind of slinked off somehow. I managed to, like, take a hard left turn, and I kind of went into the back, and I started unpacking my stuff.

So I’m watching all this happen as people come in. Anyways, I notice at a certain point that they don’t really want these people to do what they’re saying. They’re just checking to see, is this kid gonna cry? Is someone gonna throw a punch? Are they gonna go right into the shower with all their clothes on? Which a lot of people did. And when I started seeing that happen, then I was like, oh, this is actually some kind of a mental test. And I have a feeling like I wasn’t sure of it, but I was pretty sure that anyone that went into the showers with all their clothes on and they turned the water on, that they were losing, they were failing whatever test was going on.

So, yeah. And I. In retrospect, even now, I just think, like, that is kind of a principle of hazing, but it’s also just to check somebody’s mental fortitude and their resolve and will they just immediately break down? And I’m sure it wasn’t like they got kicked out, and it wasn’t like they had to wear some kind of scarlet letter. But I know it’s just like a teacher on the first day of school, they’re like, okay, there’s the class clowns. There’s the troublemakers. There’s the teachers pets. And it was just their way of knowing, okay, these people are more susceptible to influence or whatever.

So long, long story. Tiny bit long, shorter. Is that. That was kind of my first hand experience in, like, straight up mind control programming, the way that I would define it. So tell me how. How closer off that might be. No, I think. I think there’s something to that. And my, you know, my two times in basic training were really no different. I. You have to wonder, and I thought this myself, you know, because only they know only, like, the drill side, because you got to wonder, like, how if that were true, right? If this was something, if their training was based on some kind of trauma based programming, there would have to be training for that somewhere, right? So the drill sergeants, when they’re in drill sergeant school, from what I understand, is that they just basically go through basic training again.

And throughout the way, they’re just kind of, like, instructed about how to do this and that and this and that. And I’m sure there is some academic material that they’re having to read and do, but I doubt that they’re aware of why they’re doing what they’re doing. They’re just doing it because that’s what they were told to do. But at some level, you have to wonder, like, why do they do things in this way? Why are they instructed to do things that are ridiculous? Yeah, no, I’m with you there. I could see that. And I’m pretty well versed in MkUltra.

So that’s one thing that frustrates me, is that whenever talking to people about MkUltra, they automatically assume that it’s a conspiracy theory. And I’m like, dude, there’s a literal Wikipedia page, and you can go read about it. It’s not. It’s not just a conspiracy. Like, it’s actually real. And that blows people’s minds. I’m like, yeah, I mean, call it whatever you want, but it was so much a conspiracy theory that a president had to apologize on live tv for it, so. Right. Bill Clinton had to do that. There’s numerous legal cases and lawsuits that resolved. There’s one for the.

The Frank Osman family, I believe that ended up getting a paint Harold blower, who was a famous tennis player. He got overdosed on some kind of MDMA analog under the care of Doctor Ewan Cameron. I think it was him, or it might have been some other adjacent study. But, yeah, MkUltra is my go to just because it is the most easily and demonstrably provable, quote, conspiracy theory and really? It sounds so salacious. But I also tend to look at it as, like, a boring record keeping conspiracy. Like, here’s the record of all the checks that we cut to these various academic institutions.

And that’s kind of what NK ultra was. And they just found a bunch of reports from, like, 160 plus different programs. But, yeah, but I think the story, like, usually what gets buried under that is that it’s not like the CIA sat down and they had some weird mind geniuses that were like, okay, we’re gonna, you know, design all these different programs that do these things to the mind, and we’re gonna do psychic driving. We’re gonna do these stem receivers. They didn’t do any of that. All they did was looked around academia and saw what crazy stuff the academia was up to.

And then we’re like, hey, we’re going to cut you a check. Like, keep doing that. Send us the report as soon as you got it done. And they just did that over and over and over again, which makes me think that even if MkUltra programs stopped and even if the CIA or whoever else was involved in it was, you know, pushed away from doing it because it was too much exposure, academia still exists. Like, I’m positive that, like, what’s the. The prison experiment? Stanford prison experiment. Stanford prison experiment. Yeah. That’s another thing that I would classify as, like, some pretty deep mind control that could easily be utilized by three letter agencies, but that came out of academia.

So I guess to turn that into a question, how radicalized do you think someone could be going into academia versus going into the military? Do you think it’s even apples and apples? Well, I mean, that’s a good segue into cults and ideology, because that’s what it comes down to, is ideology, right. Academics are just as prone to being influenced about something, right? And the distinction I make in the chapter in my book about cults and ideology is that, look at the nazi party, for example, right? They had every, say, again, show sponsor. So just tread lightly.

Fair enough. They had pretty much every facet of government captured, including academia. And it doesn’t take much, right? When you’re in charge and you have influence over others, it doesn’t take much to say. And here’s an example, right? Universities, they do research. Research is funded by grants and by, basically by the government. The government is who sponsors a lot of research, right? Well, let’s say you wanted to research something super arbitrary, like the influence of unicorns on the human psyche or something like that, right? Probably nobody is going to want to give you grant money for that.

But if you’re studying something like how to influence people via social media and direct, like and dislike button response times, something like that that they could see as useful, then that project is going to get the grant money. So now if a government or an entity that has power is in charge of the money and the universities want to continue to conduct research, that’s who they’re going to have to go to. So even if they’re not ideologically captured, they’re still at the whims of a possible government or entity that’s controlling the funding. So I guess another way too, to compare those two is that in the military, I guess this isn’t true for everybody, because, again, I went through it myself and I saw all the different variations of people, but I guess that you would expect someone going through the military understands they’re going through a radical transformation, uh, not just physically and going through, like, the regular training, but that you’re actually, like, learning how to live a completely different way.

You’re learning how to think differently, and it’s somewhat voluntary asterisk, but you’re. You’re kind of conscious of it and you’re a little bit of a willing participant, or at least going along with it, unless you wash yourself out or whatever. But when you’re going through academia, it feels, in my mind, a little bit more sinister just because of how nuanced and how subtle that you could be getting programmed just as much, maybe even more. And because you can come and go as you please, and you’ve got this false pretense of, like, I can do anything, I’m out in the world living my own life.

But really you’re getting these very specific ideas drilled into your head and reinforced by the people you surround yourself with. And if you join book clubs of similar, and it just. It feels like it’s just as dangerous. Like, going into academia is kind of like going into the military, but you’re just going to end up fighting in a different environment. Yeah, no, that’s not an incorrect statement. And, you know, in the charged times we live in, it’s. Universities are no different than any other entity. There are people on both sides that disagree, and that makes it challenging.

Right. Like, even to the point of, like, people either losing jobs or not being able to get a job because of their, you know, because of what they believe or who they vote for or whatever. So, yeah, no, it’s just as dangerous. All right, let’s. Let’s start steering directly into some of the things that you concern, your book and your podcast. I’m endlessly fascinated with cults for various reasons. A lot of people are. I mean, it’s a pretty popular topic, especially in, like, the true crime, dark psychology sort of area. So what are there, like, rules to a cult? Like, if you were to step back and objectively say, if it walks, talks, and acts like a cult, then it.

Like, what are your kind of guidelines? Or your litmus test for a cult versus a chess club? Yeah, no, and that’s great. That’s a great way of thinking about it, because there are all cults pretty much have the same kind of characteristics. Imagine, like, you know, we do profiling for criminals. Right? You could do a profile for a cult as well. And I’ll give you two kind of examples. Right? Like, everybody knows about Scientology, but what people probably don’t know is that the element about Scientology that people were usually are most interested in, what gets them brought into it is the self help, the, like, bettering yourself, spiritually, developing yourself.

That’s what attracts people. They’re not given the full blown, like, we believe in an alien God that blew up volcanoes and doing all this crazy stuff. That’s not. You don’t get that at the front door. You got to pay big money for that. Correct. Yeah. And this is called. There’s an actual term for this. It’s called a foot in the door method. Right. So I’m going to give you just a little bit of this. Right. I just want you to get interested. Right. And then maybe you give me $1 to show you this thing, and then I give you $5 to take me deeper down the rabbit hole.

And what people who have gotten out of Scientology will tell you is that they started suspecting something was wrong about halfway down and several, you know, tens of thousands of dollars in debt. But here’s the problem. The more time you spend in the cult, the more attached you become to it, and the more cognitive dissonance you have. So even if you suspect something is wrong, you might. It’s going to take a long time for you to finally realize, like, oh, man, what have I got myself into? Because nobody wants to believe that they’ve made a very serious mistake like that.

Like, nobody wants to believe that they’ve been misled so badly and that all this debt that they’ve just acquired is for nothing. Nobody wants to believe that, even if they know it’s true. So they’ll continue to lie to themselves and rationalize it and justify it until they can’t do that any longer. But it’s not. I think there’s a misconception about cults, and people assume that it usually just has to do with Satanism or cutting your hand and sacrificing something to an altar with Satan on it or something. They’re not all that cool. There’s a lot of knowledge.

Yeah, yeah. Here’s. And here’s one that I write about in my book, the Nixiom cult. Are you familiar with them? With John Ranier? Yeah. This is with Alex Mack from Smallville, right? Yeah, yeah. And Hyde. Yeah. Keith Raniere and Dennis and the guy. I forget his name, but he’s Hyde. He plays Hyde in that 70 show. He was involved in that, too. He’s actually in prison now. And he’s also scientologist. Right. So he was double dipping in the cult. Yeah. Which, again, is. You would be surprised, that is not that uncommon because it’s the ideology that they’re interested in.

And usually it’s, you know, several groups like this have what I call, like, a new age spiritualism kind of flavor to them. And new age spiritualism tends to kind of attract groups like this because new age spiritualism, you know, and I’m not ragging on anybody. It’s not all cult, but I. It’s typically where it derives its teachings and its processes from is from this new age spiritualism, you know, quasi gnosticism and paganism, because they kind of just take things that belong to other, you know, beliefs, and then they take them in as their own. And that’s how these other beliefs tend to develop.

But in the Nixiom cult, it wasn’t necessarily like that. I do think there was a spiritual element, too, but for the most part, it was about self development. Keith Raniere was advertising his group as similar to what Scientology does, which is to better yourself, self improvement. We’re going to do these things. If I, Keith Raniere, would had this men’s group, and if I text you at 03:00 a.m. you have to show up here at this time, ready to go do a mission or ready to go do something almost like what you would imagine, a spartan like mentality.

But beneath all of that, it’s just kind of b’s, because he’s getting all these people to trust him, to get close to him. He even met the Dalai Lama at one point, right? And all the while that that’s happening. He’s got this group of women where Alison Mack was, like, in on this with him, and he was having sex with these females in the group, and they were branding these women with his initials and Alison Mackinna. Their initials combined to make this brand that they were putting on these women. So, yeah, I mean, in the same way that serial killers are very good at hiding who they are, like a sheep and a wolf and sheep’s clothing groups like this are the same way.

Instead, it’s just a group versus an individual. Do you have any favorite cults? Out of all the ones that you’ve come across, is there one that if, you know, let’s say it didn’t end sour like that you would join? No, there’s no way I wouldn’t join any of them. But I’ll tell you one that blew my socks off while researching it for the book was the. The heavens Gates cult. Right. Just because, like, Marshall Applewhite. Yeah, just like what they believe. It just blows my mind that they were able to get so many people to sign up and then to, you know, end themselves on the way they did.

That’s bizarre. You say that. Well, okay, well, let’s leave the applesauce part out because that one is a little bizarre. That one might have required a little bit more talking into. But the more I learn about heaven’s Gate, if I was the right age and lived in the right area, like, I would have been prime pickens for Heaven’s Gate. It was basically a bunch of web developers and sort of like, before Silicon Valley found its footing, this was like a quasi proto Silicon valley sort of, like, startup mentality where a bunch of computer nerds went into one place and focused on stuff and put little websites together, and then they ate applesauce and they all died.

But, like, if you were to skip that last part, it was kind of. It felt something like that might have been important. Right. I’m sure that people got caught up in that thinking, oh, man, these people are smart. And this is just like a. Like a computer club. And then somebody brings applesauce home one day and then they’re like, oh, crap. This. This wasn’t just a computer club, I guess, and the whole, like, drop your manhood off because, you know, I can’t have sex with my Colt co sponsor. Whatever. It is a wild story. So that’s the one you would join? It sounds like heaven’s Gate.

No, I wouldn’t join it by any means. I’m just, like, doing the research and reading about these groups. That’s the one that just really made me scratch my head the most, you know, because the Manson family, you know what they believe is pretty wild too, but it’s at least, you know, down to earth. And that’s pun intended. And then when you’re talking about like Jim Jones and the PE and the people’s temple, that’s not that odd to me. I mean, it is odd, obviously, but it is not that hard for me to get behind why people signed up for.

But heaven’s Gate, it’s just kind of like. It’s just really bizarre. But again, I mean, you know, what you’re saying is correct too. And that is, I feel like people who have religious tendencies but don’t want to subscribe to like a traditional religion, new age spiritualism is just easy because there’s just not as much to tie you down. There’s a lot more freedom in new age spirituality. I want to propose a link between all these. And I already want to also be cognizant that one of the downfalls of a lot of conspiracy theory mentalities is always trying to simplify things and come up with these grand unified theories where everything connects to everything else.

So with that in mind, crazy people don’t know they’re crazy. So hopefully, like a completely wild conspiracy theorist wouldn’t be able to call himself out on the wild conspiracy theory. So it seems that Alistair Crowley, the occultist, he is the common link between all these. When you say that all these cults have these new age lengths, I’ve seen many different charts, but it basically shows. Here’s the influence of Aleister Crowley making itself in particular to the west coast, which also is kind of where Silicon Valley and all this erupts. But through him and his protege Jack Parsons, who then goes in JPL laboratories and rocket propulsion and L.

Ron Hubbard, they get together, summon demons in the middle of the desert with Marjorie Cameron and try to summon a legitimate Alistair Crowley and Moonchild that this right there is the nugget. And then from that moon child ritual, whether it happened or didn’t, whether you believe, and if you’re just like a straight up atheist or you believe in the woo woo, they actually did that. They really did believe in this weird occult mentality. And from there it kind of Scientology sprouted up and conquer sprouted up all these other little satanic, not satanic church of Satan sprouted up with Anton Lavey.

And I think they all shared this one thing in particular, not just the borrowing, all these different pagan aspects and kind of making a mishmash like a new hellenistic sort of model, but it was a huge focus on the self. And Alistair Crowley would tell people you’re a star. Men and women are all stars in their own right. And that kind of on the west coast, it bleeds into Hollywood. And then this whole mentality of, like, I can be bigger and better and I’m outside of this earth that is like, it plays to such a specific type of.

I don’t want to say just narcissism, but ego plays the ego in such a way that it feels that for the last millennia had been suppressed, everyone was supposed to be part of this bigger unit. And not only was America somewhat about individualism, but then you get Crowley, like, no, no, it’s more than just America. Like, you are bigger than a planet, you know? And then Scientology just running wild with that. So I don’t know. I just want to propose that the reason why they all seem so similar is because Alistair Crowley is like, grandpapa. Yeah, no, I definitely think that there’s something to that.

Because when you look at cults and how they operate, they’re fundamentals, right? Like the focus on the self, like you said, the way that they recruit, the way that they bring people in and not just bring them in, but once they get them in, the focus on alienating them from their friends and from their family and getting them to be completely devoted to the group that’s not by accident, that doesn’t happen naturally. So they’re doing this on purpose. And I’ve always wondered, like, who came up with, like, the playbook, you know? Like, I refuse to believe that all these individuals came up with this idea on their own and that they all just naturally had this similar way of doing things.

That doesn’t make any sense. Even Charles Manson is connected to another cult that came from the UK. But again, I, you know, it’s like this giant web of where they’re all connected in some way, shape or form. So, yeah, I think what you’re saying has got some truth to it. I think you’re talking about the process church, which is also linked to Alistair Crowley in so many different ways, so. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Thank. We can all give thanks to Alistair Crowley for giving birth to all these weird cults that we’re dealing with. I wonder, have you ever heard of the Oneida community? No, I don’t think I’ve heard of that one.

So just as an example to where some cults end up being somewhat boring and actually adding to society is that Oneida now is famous for silverware and plates. I believe, like, half the people in America, at least, they open up their silverware drawer and you look at the imprint on the bottom of your spoon, your fork. A lot of people, it’ll say Oneida. And Oneida was one of these community. It was very similar people’s temple in a few different ways. One is that, um, they would all get together in these huge congregation settings, and they would kind of publicly decide who was going to pair up with who, which was a wild thing that happens in a lot of different cults.

Uh, and was one of the highlights of people’s temple. But Jim Jones would just straight up be like, hey, you over there on the left. Hey, lady with the red hat. You two, you’re going to get together now. You’re going to have kids. Like, God just told me that you’re going to make the perfect kids for this community. And Oneida kind of did that as well in this big public setting, but they didn’t move to Guyana and feed everybody flavor. Eight and cyanide. Oneida got together, and they made silverware and plates, and they turned it into a huge, bustling economy.

And then I think at some point, it converted into a straight up business where I believe they’re still in business, but now it’s no longer like a cult community. But if you look at the surrounding area, there’s been all sorts of documentaries and books written of children and people that were completely severed from their families because some decided to get into the community and others didn’t. Uh, and it was just very dark. I mean, dark, dark psychology is the name of this. But, yeah, they don’t all get, like, crazy South park episodes made after them. So a lot of them fly under the radar in a little bit of.

So you mentioned the Manson. The Manson family almost as part of a cult. And I would be remiss if I didn’t mention the often assumed link of three letter agencies and cults and three letter agencies, and in particular, Manson and Dahmer and a whole bunch of other sort of famous killers. So the, I guess, low hanging fruit would be CIA connection to Leo Ryan and his visit to Jonestown, and that this was sort of an op and that the people that were there didn’t necessarily want to drink the poison. But I don’t think we’ll ever get the full story because everyone that was there on the ground is no longer here, essentially.

So we have all these, like, weird, but the rumors have always been there since day one, that it had something to do with the CIA. How did this guy go and get all this land in a foreign country and nobody stopped him anywhere? How did he get all these drugs shipped to him in and out. So that. And then there’s the Haight Ashberry and all of the connections with the CIA and Manson and even Mkultra, although those ones are very shaky. I believe he went to a prison that also had records of doing Mkultra testing on prisoners.

But I don’t believe there’s any, like, hardcore smoking gun evidence that Manson was directly involved in a specific Mkultra program. But just because of the vicinity of these two things, like Mkultra osmosis, they both get baked in. So, yeah. Long way of asking, is there any possibility or realistic expectation that MkUltra had a hand in Jonestown or in Manson? I mean, honestly, these days, I pretty much would say that anything is possible, just because if I don’t know for a fact, I don’t like saying no, because I don’t know. The reality is, even in science, how many things has science said was true or factual and now is disputed or been completely proven false? So I live in between both worlds because I don’t always 100% buy what science is selling.

I think that there’s. And honestly, Mkultra, for me, is the proof in the pudding that did happen. This really did happen. The CIA kidnapped people and gave them drugs against their will. And there was a documentary I watched. It was pretty good, but it was based in Canada, because MkUltra also took part in Canada. And these people were in either, like a. Like a psych ward or something. They were. They were supposed to see a doctor, is all I know. And during the interview, I’ve actually tried to go find this documentary, and I can’t find it anymore.

So, you know, tough luck with that. But it was probably Doctor Ewan Cameron. Yeah, man. Doctor Ewan Cameron is a bad dude. I’ve done a lot of research on him, and there’s a great documentary, if anybody’s interested, called the minds of men. And if you want to learn some of the things that he did, why his name is famous for this stuff, you should watch that documentary. Anyways, these people basically report saying that they were under the care of a doctor, and he gave them drugs. He didn’t tell them what it was, and it made them feel terrible.

And the symptoms that they report having are similar to what you would experience with LSD or some other type of drugs. But honestly, I don’t think it was just LSD that they were using and experimenting on, because MkUltra was just the tippy top of a multitude of branches that went down to look at different things. So, anyways, my long winded tangent about MkUltra. Yeah. Of course it’s possible there’s another operation that’s similar to this kind of thing that, again, is very real called Operation Phoenix, which happened during the Vietnam era, which basically trained people to be violent killers, like, almost on the level of serial killer.

There was a guy that they talked about in Vietnam, this CIA operative working in Vietnam at the time he was being interviewed, and you’re talking about this, and they had this, like, vietnamese police chief who was, like, literally hanging people up and skinning them in this police station. And he told them that they wanted it. He wanted it to be shut down. He didn’t approve with what was going on there, that there was nothing he could do about it. So stuff like that. I mean, yeah, man, I believe just about anything these days. And the Phoenix is a really interesting one to me, too.

I think that the. There was a movie based on a book by Ron Johnson called men who stare at goats, which was an extension of this. And the underlying premise was. Yeah, was they wanted to kill, make killing machines. And that the problem was that the average soldier, when they were told to shoot at somebody, like, across a field or whatever, that they had this uncanny misfire rate, or that they would just always, like, blindly hit, like, some weird area, even people that showed a propensity for having marksmanship. And over time, they came up with this theory that they were subconsciously intentionally missing the other person because they found there was, like, some deep moral conflict where they didn’t want to kill another human being.

So that Phoenix, it sort of started out from this nefarious angle of how do we make them always point at the head? How do we make it so they always want to shoot the kill, and they don’t start with a warning shot because of some weird moral fiber. And then it turned into, like, training Jedi warriors and astral projection and all kinds of crazy stuff. But, like, every military operation, usually the first check gets cut because they’re like, oh, this is going to help us kill people quicker. And then it spirals into who knows what after the money starts actually rolling in.

But, yeah, so those two programs. And again, I was asking about the three letter agency in colts, and it sounds like you won’t discount any of that. What about Manson in particular? Because there’s a lot of different theories, not just on the CIA, but that his connections to Hollywood and the Sharon Tate murders and then Sharon Tate connection to Roman Polanski and how Roman Polanski movies accurately depicted what looks like a real satanic cult, but just presented it into Hollywood and that there was some sort of shared DNA, pun intended, amongst all these different people and these, like, weird, crazy, satanic sex Hollywood parties.

Yeah, man. I don’t know. To be fair, like, the research I’ve done regarding Manson is primarily just about the cult itself. I haven’t really done a deep dive like that on Manson, but I’ve heard. I’ve heard these things. Everything you’re suggesting, I’ve heard it before. And, you know, I guess my thought process would be, like, to what end? Like, what would. What would. Or at least, like, what I’d be interested in is, like, what was the goal? Like, what were they hoping to get out of it? That’s what I would. That’s what I would be curious about.

Maybe. Maybe, you know. Well, I don’t know for sure, but I could propose a couple interesting thought experiments. And one of those would be if you were talking about someone that was all the way deep in the Scientology ot 13 or whatever, you know, the highest level clear. And their answer. And I’m assuming, because I’m not in the. You know, I’m not clear, but that it would be like, well, what’s the point? And at some point, they would be like, oh, well, so that we can meet Zenu and free ourselves of thetans. You know what I mean? Like.

Like, that would be the reason. So when you. When you would ask to what end? There might be someone in Polanski’s party. What’s like. Well, to summon the great evil dark lord, of course. Why else would we be doing it? You know? And. And you might be looking for, like, no, but what do you get out of it, personally? It’s like, no, we’re actually trying to usher in the book of revelation. You know what I mean? So there. Yeah. And again, like, the Waco. Waco is another one that gets cited as kind of a cult mentality.

But instead of worshiping Satan, there was a lot of people convinced that David Koresh was literally unlocking the seven seals of the book of Revelations and that they wanted to be there when it happened because, I don’t know, you get, like, a vip seed or something if you’re close to the guy that opens the 7th seal. But all those. I mean, those are all different cults. And let me. Let me steer this into a question. Why is it that so many cults seem to revolve around the leader just banging everybody that they want to within the cult? What is it even possible to have a serious cult that doesn’t result in the leader just having sex with anyone.

Well, I mean, let’s. Let’s think about this rationally, right? I mean, that. That, to me, totally makes sense. And this is where I can provide some context, right? Because these leaders, these individuals, regardless of whatever it is, their intention is, they have dark personalities that are bordering more on the narcissistic psychopathic trait. Meaning that they’re cold, callous and manipulative, right? When you have that much power over a group of people, right? And we can even use Manson’s family as an example, right? Manson’s fan. Manson and his family, they got involved with one of the members of the Beach Boys, right? And what happened was that kind of everywhere that Manson went with his group, he used the women in his group to get what he wanted.

So when he ends up moving out to the ranch, the dude that owned the ranch was like 80 years old. And he would occasionally. Manson would occasionally ask the women to sleep with the owner of the ranch, even though the dude was like almost blind and 80 years old. And the women did it, no questions asked. So I think for me, this is more of an explanation of. About power. And this is how they attain it. Once they’ve procured their people and they’re bought in on the idea of whatever it is this person is selling, whether it’s xenu or helter skelter or whatever.

I’ve got this power now, and I can use these people how I see Fitzhe, right? Whether it’s for murder, for sex, for whatever, that, to me, makes the most rational sense. Because dark personalities, they’re master manipulators. They’re very good. That’s why the term gaslighting it is what it is. Everyone now knows what that term means because they’ve experienced it at some point in their life. How do you rationalize or talk to an individual when you’re accusing them of something and you give them the facts, you did this, this and this, and they lie to your face.

And not only do they lie to you, but they’ve now twisted it into making it seem like you’re actually the problem. Somebody who’s gifted in that ability. It’s no. It’s no surprise to me that they’re able to do things like this. That’s another good little segue. Because one of the things that I find fascinating about Jim Jones in particular and people’s temple cult was that early on in life, when he was like seven or eight, that he would go around preaching at kids and, like, commanding them to do stuff and somehow just have this. Unless you believe that, like, the CIA captured him as a kid and trained it.

Ultra Campbell, let’s assume that that’s not the case. Then there’s some people that naturally have charisma and for whatever reason, environment or otherwise, that they just know what these weird game genie secret codes are in order to make people do what they say. And I also wonder on that, does that mean that they’re inherently dark? Because they figure out, oh, if I act this way or if I make this person feel this certain, like if they naturally figure out gaslighting without starting from a nefarious point of view, without thinking, I’m going to manipulate this person by making them think this.

What if a kid just naturally comes across this and then it becomes part of the way they interact with the world? Is that different than like a straight up dark personality? Or is it like, is that one in the same? Would it make you into a dark personality? No, I think it’s one in the same. And as a matter of fact, I’m really glad you brought this up because this is kind of a thing that I’ve been talking about for a while now, which is that lying. Everybody pretty much starts lying when they’re a child. But here’s what happens.

If your parents are good parents and they catch it early and they catch you lying, they punish you for it, so then you learn, or hopefully you learn and you are raised in an environment where learning is frowned upon. We don’t lie. Well, what happens to an individual when they lie and start getting away with it? Now, does that make them a bad person? Does this make them a dark personality? No, not per se. But if somebody’s born with the ability to do the things like you’re talking about, and then they discover that they can lie and get away with it, you’ve now talked you, now we’re talking about somebody very dangerous if the lying is not squashed out when they’re a child, and it may not, and it may not work, right? Like some people, I don’t, and I can’t explain this, but some people, it appears that they are born with a dark personality feature or style, because there are people, I think the misconception is that typically when we think about a serial killer or somebody like this, the automatic assumption is, oh, they must have been abused or hurt or something happened to them when they were a child.

And in a lot of times, yes, that is what happens. But there are individuals who seemingly have no excuse for being as dark as they are. Like Dennis Rader, for example. Now, again, we have to take these stories at face value. We don’t know the 100% whole truth. Only Dennis Rader does. But Dennis Rader apparently, by all accounts, lived a very normal childhood, and he still turned out to be one of the most horrific serial killers in the United States. So I don’t think that this turns anybody into a dark personality. I think if they already have the genetic components, whatever it is, whatever the factor is that’s causing this, genes, biology, psychology, a combination of all of it.

I think once they learn that they can get away with lying, it just makes it worse. Have you seen the series Dexter? I have. I’m watching it right now. It’s on my tv, actually, right now. The new one. The, the reboot, you mean? Or are you watching OG? I’m watching the OG again. I don’t like, I just reboots these days. I don’t feel like are as good. So I like watching the OG. So I’m curious, how realistic is the premise of Dexter that you could identify, you know, a ten year old and, like, oh, my God, this kid’s gonna be a serial killer, and then train them to be, like, a good serial killer.

Train them to kill other serial killers. How, how realistic is that as a premise, regardless of how they execute in Dexter? Like, if you were to actually try and do that in the real world, or is it impossible to try and sort of channel and direct whatever a serial killer has? I don’t think, you know, I think very few things are impossible. But, um, I don’t think it’s likely because, and here’s why. I actually was literally talking to somebody about this the other day. Old premise is that, uh, Dexter is a serial killer who hunts down other, you know, bad people or other serial killers.

The premise here, though, that’s flawed, is thinking that you could train somebody to have, like, because what are the hallmarks of people like this? No empathy, no remorse. They are disconnected from regular human beings. They don’t, they can’t feel a process, emotions the same way we do. So to think that you could tell them, like, hey, it’s wrong to kill other people, but you could kill these other people who are bad already. I just don’t. I mean, again, it’s possible with brainwashing, just about anything is possible. And here’s, but here’s an example that we could look at as kind of like an idea of this, because I imagine this has never happened except for in the tv show.

But there are real life examples of this kind of thing that we could look at. Think about Navy SEALs or really any military person at all. Soldier, Marine, Navy SEAL. We train people to kill other people, and we tell them, don’t shoot innocent. Now, again, it doesn’t always go according to plan. Some of these people end up turning into violent, violent murderers anyways. But for the most part, a SEAL team, they’re very trained, they’re very elite. They probably, I mean, if told to go kill this person, they probably would not ask questions. They would go execute on command.

That is as trained as you could get. And they are violent, and they are precise in what they do. They’re not violent in the way that a common criminal trying to steal your car might be violent. They are trained to execute, to go in very hostile situations, use explosives, all types of weapons, hand to hand combat. I mean, I’m not suggesting serial kill. Navy SEALs are serial killers, but what I’m saying is that their propensity for violence matches that of a serial killer, and they have a moral code for the most part. They’re not typically going to go kill civilians for no reason.

So that’s probably as close to a dexter as I think you could get. How. How easily do you think a true serial killer, like a psychopathic serial killer, could hang in the military? Like, make, like, make it through? Uh, let’s just. Let’s just say a four year enlistment. But do you think it would be easy for them to get sorted out or they would know. They would just, like, slip right through? Oh, no, no, no, I’m sorry. They wouldn’t make it. They. I mean, typically, because we’ve seen this in the past, like, the most. Some of the most famous serial killers had stents in the military.

Even Jeffrey Dahmer was in the military for a little while, but he had a horrible drinking problem. The biggest problem with dark personalities or psychopaths in the military, they’re not team players. They don’t give a fuck about other people. And, you know, from being in the military, right. You gotta be a team player. If you’re. You’re a jerk, if you’re an asshole that doesn’t do their job, typically aren’t going to do very well, you know? I mean, our military these days has become pretty relaxed, and so maybe they might have an easier time flying under the radar, especially depending.

Yeah, exactly right. I mean, but again, you know, when you’re talking about dark personalities, that would be. That’s the place I would want to go. People who are weak minded, people who are easy to manipulate, that would be the best place for them. They would thrive there, thinking that these people are safe and that I just got to befriend them because that’s what they’re good at. Right. I. I’m going to make you believe that I’m your best friend. I’m the perfect person for you. And once you’re my best friend, that’s when I’m going to start manipulating you.

That’s when I’m going to ask you to do things you normally wouldn’t do. But because I’m your friend and I’ve convinced you as much, or even a lover, because we’re a partner, a couple, I’m going to take advantage of you now. And they don’t feel bad about it at all. And that’s what makes them so dangerous. But in the military, for the most part, if a unit is effective and if they’re doing their jobs, people like that aren’t going to last because they can’t function this way. They’re not team players. If we go real dark, and I guess I want to know what you would consider, like, some of the darkest ones are, but my, I guess the ones that come to my mind because I’m more normie vanilla.

So I just go. Based on what? Movies and tv shows and stuff. But Ed Gein turning people into lampshades and like bodysuits and stuff seems pretty up there. Jeffrey Dahmer seems pretty up there. Is there any other, like, major ones that fly under the radar because they haven’t had Netflix specials yet? EDmUND Kemper is probably one of the most horrifying serial killers out there. Now if people, if your viewers or yourself have seen the show Mindhunters, then you know about Edmund Kemper. But I did not know about him until I watched that show. And I use Edmund Kemper in my book as one of the examples.

Here’s why Edmond Kemper didn’t have the highest kill count. He didn’t do anything super wild like he wasn’t eating people for the most part or anything like that. Ed Kemper was brilliant and he was never caught. Both times he was arrested, it was because he turned himself in. But here’s what’s twisted about Edmund Kemper. After he’s arrested for killing his grandparents, again, because he turned himself in, he goes to a psychiatric facility where there he displays himself as such a model prisoner that the psychologists and the psychiatrists at the facility trained and trusted him to give psychological evaluations to other prisoners what do you think he did with that knowledge? He learned exactly what to say.

He knew exactly how to manipulate the staff there. And when he was 21, he released the board to release him, even against the psychologists and psychiatrists that were there. Even though they liked them, they still didn’t recommend that he should be released. But he was smart enough to trick the people there into letting him be free. And again, he was smart enough and charming enough. His friends. Right? He didn’t have many friends. But you know who he did make friends with? Police officers. He went to a local bar. And I forget what the name of the bar was, but it was a cop hangout.

And he went down there and befriended all of them. He befriended them so well that the second time that he turned himself in, they didn’t even believe him. When he called and said, I killed my mom and her friend, and they’re in my house. They didn’t believe him. They thought he was joking. They didn’t believe him until they went to the house and found the bodies. So to me, he’s one of the darkest, because he was so intelligent. Like, in my mind, Edmund Kemper is as close to a real life Hannibal Lecter as I think we could get, because Hannibal Lecter is just way too, way too out there.

It’s too much of a fictional character. But Ed Mckembert’s very real. So that means there could be a possible reality in the future where there’s a person with the mind of Ed Kemper and the weird kinks of a Dahmer that could be the best of both worlds. No drinking habit, just mentally acute, very sharp. And I guess how many? Unless you think that we have a 100% track record for catching serial killers and psychopaths, how many do you think were actually catching? Are we even at like 1% or 10% or. And I guess the inverse of that question is how many for every Jeffrey Dahmer we catch, how many Jeffrey Dahmers are just riding around rampant? Thats a really tough question because, and ive heard several theories about this.

I actually heard a theory recently. This guy on TikTok was talking about this. He said that the reason that serial killers were so predominant in the sixties was because there was lead in paint and lead in all these other things, and that it was lead that was causing these malfunctions in people’s brains, especially at a young age. Now, again, I don’t know that I buy that, but we do know that after we removed lead from gasoline and from paint, that we saw like a 50% decrease in violent crime after that, which you got to wonder. I mean, again, I don’t really like statistics.

They’re helpful, but I still think that sometimes statistics are fabricated, and that’s what happens a lot of times in drug trials. Some of the things we use, we’ve been using them forever and ever, and then all of a sudden, we find out, like, oh, shit, the data was fabricated, or this was bad data. We shouldn’t have been using this. So I don’t know that that’s truly a thing, but that’s at least a theory. But I I don’t actually know Edmund Kemper, actually. When he had been caught and he was in prison, he did a lot of interviews, and he talked to people like Jonathan Douglas, the famous FBI profiler.

And he suspected at the time that he was doing his work, he suspected that there was 34 active serial killers at the time. Now, I don’t know where he got that number or what. He was smart. But I mean, how could you possibly know that? How could you possibly know how many serial killers there are now? My thing is that I think it is certainly possible that individuals like this exist, and they are intelligent, and they are getting away with it, and they are not being caught. I definitely believe thats happening. How many? I couldnt tell you, but heres a good example.

I dont know if youre familiar with this, but this is an interesting thing I ran across recently. Theres a guy whos been doing a series or an investigation on a possible serial killer in Austin, Texas. So apparently there’s this river or lake down there where people keep winding up in there, and the police keep writing these off as accidents, but it’s very strange circumstances, and there’s a lot of these accidents that are happening very close to each other. And a lot of the families that are involved, they don’t believe that this was an accident. What’s common amongst them is that they’re all men.

The last place they were seen was down on this, like, really famous, like, drinking area, like, kind of like a touristy drinking area. And that particular area doesn’t have very many cameras. And this lake, this lake, river thing where they’re all going missing, there’s no cameras down there, and there’s no lights. It’s completely pitch black. The guy that did this investigation, he walked a trail with his friend and a camera. No light. I mean, I’m talking about, like, at night, it was completely pitch black. If you wanted to unalive somebody and get rid of their body, I couldn’t think of a better place.

And there’s not even any police presence. There’s nothing. There’s literally nothing down there to stop somebody from getting rid of the evidence down there. So that’s one of the things that I’ve seen recently that I’m interested to buy. Here’s why. Throwing people in the water like that really screws up. Trying to get evidence now. I mean, you can, but it really. The water messes with a lot of things when you’re trying to collect evidence. And with all these accidents, and the cops keep calling them accidents. I mean, could you imagine, like, I mean, after the first couple that you got away with, and now the cops just keep calling them accidents.

It seems like the right combination of things. So you were saying. Starts to learn that they can lie with no repercussions, and it starts to emphasize that behavior. Yeah. If that’s what’s happening. I don’t know for a fact. I would look at patterns. I’m actually interested in looking into it. I would. Like, I tried contacting the guy that made the documentary because I’d be curious to try and make, like, a profile because that’s the only way that, you know, that’s the way the FBI finds people. Like, this is through coming up with some kind of profile based on habits, traits, certain aspects of the crime reveal certain things about individuals.

I was actually talking to my brother today about a possible, like, profile of the Zodiac killer because that’s. That’s another one we never caught. And because of the way that he. He carried himself and he dressed. People don’t even have any idea. Being Ted Cruz. Didn’t it? I thought he came out and admitted it, but I guess not. Oh. Oh, you mean literally like Ted Cruz? I thought you meant the politician Ted Cruz, I think. Making a joke. I thought he ended up being the. Anyways, okay, it was a joke. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I.

I’d be curious now. I don’t think Ted Cruz would fit the. Fit the bill for that individual, but maybe where did. Where’s the line? Because before, you were talking about Navy Seals, they get trained to kill, right? And then you’ve got, for example, there’s, like, the british nurse. There’s actually been a few of them, but they would just, like, inject a certain drugs in the people’s iv tubes. Like they were already gonna die pretty soon. Like they were in hospice or life support. But, like, what’s. Is there a line that you draw in your mind between someone actively kidnapping and torturing and unaliving people and desecrating their body versus a nurse that just puts a little bit of extra drugs into someone’s iv tube every once in a while just.

Just for the thrill? Or are we literally talking about the same personality type? Yeah, we’re talking about the same personality type because it’s. It’s not about. I mean, there is an element that is about what they’re doing and how they’re doing it. That’s part of it. But when we’re talking about the traits of people like this, like, no empathy, no remorse, no regard for the law. No, these things are the same. Right? Now you might have be curious to why they’re doing that. Maybe they give some reason, like, well, this person was going to die anyways.

But even if they said that, that wouldn’t make me feel very comfortable. It’d be like, well, what gives you the right to push it along? You know, what moral justification do you have for being like, oh, they were going to die anyways, but what do you get out of it? That’s what I would be curious about. Right. What are you getting out of it? Because if you’re getting some kind of sexual enjoyment or pleasure out of this because you have these dark, morbid fantasies, then, no, you’re just as dangerous and just as serial killer as Edmund Kemper or Ted Bundy or any of them.

Let’s say you’ve got an ed Kemper in your scope or whatever you’re contracted by the CIA or something to like, okay, we need you to. We need you to fix them. Like, we. Like, we need his brain because he’s brilliant, but he keeps killing people. So we need you to fix that part. Is there anything to do at all? Or is that person just a serial killer for the rest of their life and that you can maybe just put mittens on them, but, like, can you actually change somebody’s programming? I mean, I. Yeah, I think that there’s probably a way.

Do we know how to do that right now? I don’t think so. Um, what I imagine just like, with almost any other psychological disorder, because really, when we’re talking about this, even though we’re talking about it in kind of like a morbid way, describing serial killers and stuff like this at the root cause of it, it is some kind of mental disturbance. This is some kind of psychological issue. Whether it’s a personality disorder or a brain, a problem with their brain chemistry or whatever, or a combination of all of the above, this is still a mental problem.

And so if I were to try to fix it, I would approach it in the same way that we would treat any other mental disorder, which is through therapy and medication, probably, or one or the other or both. The problem is with individuals like this, and again, it just speaks to the nature of these people, is that if you were to take a true psychopath like Ted Bundy or Edmund Kemper, and you try to put them into therapy, they don’t have empathy. And that is typically a lot of times what therapists are playing on in the emotions to inspire something in you.

Right. Well, if you don’t have it, the only thing therapy can do is show you what it looks like. You don’t feel it, but you can see it. And so if you’re talking to me and you’re becoming very empathetic with me and showing me your emotional side, I’m going to take advantage of that. I’m going to start pretending to do what you’re doing to me. So now you’ve really just. And again, this isn’t going to be true for everybody, but for these violent offenders like this, more than likely this is what’s going to happen. They’re going to start saying exactly what they think you want to hear.

Like, I’m sorry. Right. Because it takes nothing to say it. What we want is for you to feel it. But if they don’t feel it, they don’t mean it. Yeah, yeah. Say it to me like you mean it. I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to cut my mother’s head off and do all these inappropriate things. I didn’t mean to lie to you all these times. I’ll never do it again. But that ain’t true. Like, they don’t really feel that probably, right? Yeah, I guess I think that it’s difficult. Maybe someday we will find a medication or a type of therapy.

There’s one type of therapy because when I was working in the jail, I thought about this a lot. I thought about, like, how do we rehabilitate people like this? Because there’s violent offenders who aren’t on the level of Edmund Kemper and Ted Bundy. There’s violent offenders who do bad things, but they’re not at that level. So how do we help people like this? There is a type of therapy that is trying to show the individual, to try to show them empathy, to help them understand what it is. And a lot of times what ends up happening is it’s not really to show them how to have empathy for other people, but it’s really to have empathy for themselves.

Like, hey, do you want to keep coming back to prison? Like, would you like to eventually get out and have a job and not do this every day? They’re going to say yes. And so you teach them, like, okay, well, like, if you don’t want to come back to jail, you’ve got to stop robbing people or selling drugs or, you know, whatever illegal activity it is you’re doing, you need to stop doing that or otherwise you’re just going to keep coming back to prison. And that, you know, not on a very great scale, but that does seem to have some kind of effect when you stop making it about having feelings for other people and really trying to refocus it on themselves, because that’s the thing.

They’re the ultimate selfish person. The only person they could ever care about is themselves. And even that sometimes is hard. But if you could convince them to have enough empathy for themselves to not keep coming back to jail or at least give them the tools to stop doing that, theres a chance. I think that would probably be the best way. So it sounds like to rephrase it, maybe oversimplify it, but that if you could somehow find a way to actually get them to experience empathy, that that might be like one of the first steps towards, you know, curing somebody, like, to the level of Kemper, if that were even a possibility, which it might be slim, but I want to flip that on its head.

So if we invert that and say you wanted to take a normal person and make them into a psychopathic serial killer, then it would be to remove their ability to feel empathy or somehow detach it. So, funny enough, you mentioned the prison system. So if we shift from inside the jail cell to outside the jail cell, I almost imagine in some environments, kind of like the guy at the factory farm that has to just put bolts in the cows heads over and over and over again. You don’t name them because then you start feeling bad. So they’re kind of training themselves day in and day out to just erase some version of empathy where it’s just do my job, just do my job.

Just every single bolt that goes through the head and to make maybe an extremist comparison. But if I’m working as in a correctional department and I’m the one that has to be like, lay down the law and I got to be the hard ass, it’s always yelling at people and, you know, setting things straight, it almost seems that there is a level of empathy suppression that you absolutely have to do when you’re also treating humans like they are just inmates, you know, inmate number, you know, 8795 and stuff, like literally calling them out by numbers and addressing them as though they were something other than human.

And I wonder, does that mean that potentially anyone working in, like, corrections are kind of on a track to potentially turn themselves into a psychopath because they’re forcing themselves into a position where they are suppressing empathy? Well, I think we should distinguish the fact, like, having antisocial traits is not the same as being a full blown psychopath, because you can have antisocial traits and not be a violent offender. Like people like cops, people like soldiers. Some of these other things we’ve talked about, even people like CEO’s, we didn’t get to that. But there’s a book by one of the leading experts on psychopaths called snakes in suits.

And it’s an entire book on blue collar dudes. CEO individuals who are psychopaths or have these antisocial traits, these dark personalities, but they’re not killers. They’re not violent, they’re not hurting anybody. But they might be psychologically hurting people. They might be screwing you over in your career to get the better the upper hand over you. So now, when we’re talking about individuals like corrections officers and stuff like that, there’s a couple of things we should know. One, this would be a job that somebody like this that has a dark personality. This is a kind of job that they would want, because what do they want? They want power.

They want power over other people. And it’s usually unearned power. Right? Like, it doesn’t take much to be a corrections officer. You have to go through some training, but it’s not that hard. And then eventually, you’re given power, like, extreme power over other people. Same thing with being a copy. It’s not that hard to be a cop and think about all the authority you get. Once you become that over other people, you can pull people over. You can talk poorly to people. I mean, it’s a little different today. Cops don’t have it like they used to, but that’s what they want.

They want power over people. So, yeah, that kind of job would attract somebody like that. I don’t think that job turns anybody into this. It might eventually build, like, a very callous emotion, and you might have a very blunted level of empathy. I don’t think it’s turning anybody into that. But again, it could unlock it. I would say maybe if some people might not convert them, but there might be someone out there that once they get that first, like real pure hit of power and they’re like, damn, I didn’t know it was this good. And then it’s sort of that negative reinforcement of, hey, I got away with this.

And like infinite, if anything, maybe I’m even getting awards and praise because of the how im acting. And it can kind of breed that in a way. Totally. I could see that. But I would just say again that it would, I dont think this would turn anybody into that. I think that they would already have a disposition of having some type of dark personality traits that the evidence was there. Theyve been like this, but this gave them the ability to really have an outlet for it. Right. Some of these red flag behaviors that we see in childhood, like hurting animals, Orlando bullying their classmates or cutting the heads off of dolls and stuff like that.

If they had that kind of stuff going on in their childhood and now they’re a corrections officer, it would make sense that this was happening. He mentioned the CEO and like the white collar version of this. And without getting into a whole complete tangent, but I do, I struggle with like the philosophical concept that, um, I might be misattributing this quote, but I think Stalin had this, this quote. It was kind of like, you kill one person, you’re a murderer, you kill a million people. And it’s like a statistic or something, you know, like once it gets into these abstract areas to where the visceral killings of Jeffrey Dahmer, right, those stand out, but there could theoretically be some nestle CEO somewhere that just signs the right check that condemns 10,000 people to death.

And they’re not necessarily, you know, committing any law breaking because it’s all sort of this murky, abstract territory. But this go, and this is going to get into like a weird mind space that I don’t expect anyone else to share with me, but that I sometimes feel that the intent apparently means so much, especially when you’re talking about serial killers and psychopaths. And even in the us court system, the intent behind something can be the difference between you walking away with a law, you know, like a civil lawsuit, or you go in and getting like a needle in your arm.

Because if you, if you pre planned something and you did it with malice or if you did it with some kind of prejudice in mind, like, all those things make it more and more harsh. But if it was an accident, if you just didn’t see them and it was in the dark and, you know, accidents happened to, now all of a sudden it’s involuntary manslaughter or all these other iterations. But I always wonder, like, why does intent matter so much? Because, again, with. With a kemper, right? If you had the kemper, if he wasn’t so gracious as to just straight up be honest and turn himself in and.

And say, no, it wasn’t an accident I killed him, and go through all that. Like, that guy could have potentially just always gotten off of every killing that he ever wanted to. And the real. The real underlying thing there is that when he came in and he admitted it, and he said, here’s why I did it. You don’t know. You don’t know if he’s telling you the truth because he’s such a damn good liar. So if that’s the case, if people can lie so well, then why does intent even matter? Like, the end result would be the same.

Whether you accidentally cut your mom’s head off, or if you did it intentionally, or if you pre planned it, they all result in the same end, right? So I don’t. The point there being that intent seems like it gets all this extra attention, and that’s what all these criminal minds and Mindhunter, they all want to figure out. Like, why did you do it? But couldn’t they all just be lying? Like, would we ever actually know that they were even telling the truth about why they did it? Yeah, no, that’s a really great question. And honestly, a lot of times, they are lying.

Here’s what we can do. Right? Why does intent matter? Like, when you’re talking about, like, did they plan to do it or not? Because if it was in the moment, you could. I mean, it could have been self defense. It could have been a crime of passion, as people have said it. You know, like, I walked in on my wife cheating on me, or whatever it is, and so I shot this guy. It’s not excusable. You know, you’re still killing somebody. But that is a different mindset than I planned. For two months, every day, I drove down this person’s house to see what time they left their house, and I stalked them wherever they went so that I knew exactly their timeline.

And when the moment was just right, I snuck in the back door of their house after cutting the phone lines so they couldn’t call the police. And then I cut their head off, and then I cut their body into pieces. And then I did all these other things because I had this dark, twisted sexual fantasy about what I was going to do to everyone else. There is a difference. And that’s where forensic psychologists are really important because you can do things like reading body language. There’s a guy, really interesting guy on YouTube called Doctor G, and he does these videos of analysis where you watch people.

He watches people like serial killers in court or being interviewed. And there’s little things on your face. They show lots of facial expressions, but there’s many expressions that happen and it’s called leakage. So you’re trying very hard to remain emotionless and not do anything. But then when you’re reminded of a memory that you think is enjoyable, the corners of your mouth come up just ever so slightly. Or if you’re remembering a memory that you really enjoy and you lick your lips because it’s, again, you’re salivating because you’re getting this enjoyment or the way that your eyebrows come down or up or down, expressing contempt or surprise or something, little things like that.

Forensic psychologists can use that to just kind of get an idea. But if somebody’s a very good liar, it’s hard to know for sure. That’s why evidence really comes into play, too, when it’s, when we’re talking about people like this. And I wonder, too that if they’re analyzing for all these little facial expressions and stuff, but none of that’s admissible in court for any reason. Right? To what ends would somebody take, like, these forensic psychologists, to what ends are they taking all these different notes? And then what? Do they use that to prevent another crime? Do they use that for? Because it almost seems that it wouldn’t be applicable if you went into a normal interrogation room and you’re like, wait a minute, bub.

I noticed that every time we mention this, you salivate a little bit. You know, book them. Like, it doesn’t quite work like that, right? So how does that turn into a practical thing that gets used? So here’s one example. It’s called malingering. So a lot of violence vendors like this will try to use an insanity plea to get some kind of lesser charge or whatever, right? So a forensic psychologist or somebody trained to do these kinds of assessments is going to test for malingering. And I watched a really good one on the parkland shooter, Nicholas Cruze.

And if you, I watched him in two, for 2 hours. I watched him in a holding cell being questioned by a detective. And the entire time he’s like talking like this. He’s got his head down and he’s like, every question they ask me says, I don’t know. I don’t remember, like very easy, basic questions. And it’s obvious he’s faking. It’s obvious he’s not telling the truth. So you get this, right? For 2 hours, he’s doing this. And when they ask him, like, why did you do it? He said, all the demons in my head, the demons in my head told me to do it.

And when the police officers not buying it, he’s like, there are no demons in your head. It’s just you like, I need you to be honest with me. This is not going to get you anywhere. When Nicholas Cruz realizes that he’s not getting anywhere with this detective, what does he do? He asks for psychologists. Can I talk to a psychologist? What good is talking to a psychologist right now? Dude, you’ve already committed the crime, and you’re in a jail cell waiting to get a reign to go to the next thing. Thats not going to happen until later.

But why did he ask for that? He wanted to talk to somebody who could psychologically assess him. Whos going to be looking for these things. Like, are you hearing voices in your head? But what people like Nicholas Cruz dont realize is that a psychiatrist or a psychologist trained like that is not going to buy that story. Theyre going to see right through it. And heres why. Months later, he gets evaluated by a psychiatrist. The way that Nicholas Cruz is talking is completely different. He’s talking fast, he’s knowledgeable, and the psychiatrist knows how to get him to talk.

Because if you ask him questions about the murders, he’s looking down and he’s talking kind of quiet, and he’s trying to act like he’s sorry. But if you ask him, like, what kind of gun did you use? Oh, I use this gun in this caliber, and it shoots at this range and da, da, da, completely different because that’s the difference. He’s putting on a show when you ask about these questions, but if you ask him about other questions, he’s completely knowledgeable. Oh, yeah. This range and I researched all these other school shootings, and this is what they did.

They used this weapon at this caliber and just verbal diarrhea. That’s how you know he’s lying. So it sounds like the practical use of some of this forensic psychology ultimately ends up in like, cross examination courtroom tactics. It’s like, oh, if you ask this question to this person, then you can elicit this kind of response. It almost sounds like it’s a tool for lawyers ultimately. I mean, it is and it isn’t because, yes, that’s what it’s, that’s what it’s ultimately good for. But a lot of this stuff was developed by the FBI when they were coming up with the behavioral analysis unit.

Like in Mindhunters. Right. Think about, did you, by the way, I never asked. Did you watch that show? Have you seen that? I did, yeah. This is the. I think it had two seasons, right? Yes. It’s good. So there’s one example when they finally start getting this down, when they start getting good at this. There was one person who had killed a girl, and he was the guy that was working on like the cherry picker, working on the phone lines, cutting branches and stuff. The guy thought he got away with it. The guy thought that he had nothing left and they were just doing some basic questioning.

What’d they do? He took that big boulder and put it on the table. That wasn’t even the murder weapon. They put up the girl’s clothes in the background so that he could see it. And they put this boulder in front of them and he just spills his guts, right? He said, yeah, yeah, I did it. They didn’t have to do much. They just had to prompt him psychologically to be able to realize, like, he’s not getting out of this. So, and you might say that that’s like some cheap parlor tricks maybe, but when you’re talking about individuals like this, you’ve got to use what you can use because a lie detector test isn’t going to work on that and you can’t take them at their face value.

So you, how else are you supposed to get somebody that’s a pathological liardgest to reveal secrets that they want to keep hidden from you? Great example, great show. And also, before I forget, you were talking about the documentary on Doctor Ewan Cameron. There was also, this isn’t a documentary, but there was a made for tv movie in Canada called the Sleep Room or the sleeping room. I’m recommending it to you, Cameron, to anyone else listening. I don’t know if I recommend it. It’s really long, a little boring, unless you really care about Doctor Ewan Cameron. But if Doctor Ewan Cameron’s your thing, it’s something that I think.

Not anyone’s ever actually seen this movie because it came out in like the eighties or the early nineties. Yes, the sleep room. I’m pretty sure that’s what it’s called. I’m gonna have to check that out. I want to get a greeting from you on a bunch of different things. So I’ve got a whole little segment. Let me just play it and then we’ll get into it. Hey, conspiracy buffs, I double dare you to take some PCP paranormal conspiracy probe. On your marks, get set and go. Okay, rules are pretty simple. I’m going to mention a certain topic and you’re just going to give me a one to ten rating or zero to ten or any kind of way you want to convey.

But a zero meaning, you think it’s silly, farcical, you know, you don’t take it seriously in a ten. Like, oh, yeah, that’s a real thing. So let me give you an example. We’ll start out of with Bigfoot. If you had a rate, how much you believe in Bigfoot from one to ten, where would you put that on that scale? Probably a two or three. So, okay, so you’re saying there’s a chance. What about the concept of flat Earth? Probably zero. I gotta say zero on that one. What about the concept of hollow Earth? Three. How about the.

The world is a sphere, and it doesn’t have to be a perfect sphere, like a global shape. How much do you believe in that? Nine. Okay, how about this? The phrase that a human being has stepped foot on the moon in the last 100 years. Five. How much? The same rating. But on, specifically on the footage that we were shown from the Apollo eleven mission on tv. How much do you believe in that? Two. How much do you believe that the recent Trump assassination attempt was done by a complete lone wolf under just, I guess, an incompetent FBI? You go to five.

I’m gonna go with five. How about the conventional explanation of dinosaurs, as I assume that you learned about growing up in school? Four or five. How about Santa Claus? Zero. How about fire breathing, flying dragons having existed at any point in history, they don’t have to exist right now. Say it’s six. I’m curious about a couple other cryptids, too, because you gave Bigfoot a two or a three, so not just an instant zero, because you did get flat earth. An instant zero. So what about stay Mothman? I mean, okay, three. And Loch Ness monster? How about Loch Ness monster? Six.

How about the I’d mentioned before about Jack Parsons and L. Ron Hubbard summoning demons in the desert? That’s, that’s a real thing that they, they tried to do. How much do you believe in that kind of magic, that Alistair Crowley and Jack Parsons, Elron Hubbard could actually summon some sort of supernatural thing? Do I think they could do it or do that? Do I think that they believe it? Anyone’s possible that they could actually summon some kind of a legit supernatural and not in an Arthur C. Clarke. Indistinguishable. You know, not in that way, but, like a legitimate.

I draw a sigil and magic fairy dust or whatever. Like, how. How much credit do you think that that could have? Three, four? What about a straight up demon? How about, like a. Like a biblical demon that someone could summon? Seven. What about angels? Same thing. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, seven. I’d have to say seven. If those. If demons are real, they got to be real, too. So. And then I’m curious to. You don’t have to give this one a rating. Out of all the different kempers and Ed Gaines and Dahmers and I guess all the heavy hitters and the ones that we don’t know, do you think any of those were legitimately possessed by a biblical or some other mysterious evil entity demon, or do you think it’s more rational that it’s just weird monkey brain misfiring stuff? I don’t know.

I could be convinced, but I don’t know. I typically tend to go the more rational route, but I have an open mind. Well, let me ask you this, and we’re wrapping down here, so I promise we won’t get into a whole bunch of new threads, but how much confidence do you have in the. I’ll call the Rockefeller medicine system. A little tongue in cheek. But like that? Pharmaceuticals can cure, you know, lack of empathy. Like, you take your garden variety serial killer. How much confidence? Do you think that straight up psych, conventional psychiatry can fix it for that person? Right now we can’t.

And then what about religion or self help or putting them onto the word of Jesus Christ or whatever you want to fill in that blank with? How helpful do you think that is? I think all the individuals who claim to find Jesus when they’re in prison, I think it speaks for itself. I think it’s an act. Well, let’s. Let’s say, and this is hypotheticals, right? Because we’re not going to pull a prisoner out right now and test it on him. Yeah, right. Dexter style. You notice that your kid starting to torture animals for fun? Or do you notice in some other avenue of life, you know, you’re the ti.

Or you’ve got some sort of an apprentice and you’re the mentor, and you recognize this in them? Like, put them on drugs, put them on the good book. Do you think either of those would have a better success rate or that you would prefer one over the other? Or is it just you just toss the dice? I don’t know. I think as a parent, you do everything you can to keep your children from turning out that way. I think that people do use both, and I don’t know that either one works more effectively than not, because pharmaceuticals don’t cure lack of empathy.

The pharmaceuticals we have are typically really more about emotion regulation, and that’s not always going to work with somebody like that. I find it fascinating, especially because you gave demons a seven. So I just wonder if they are perhaps have a higher chance of existing than nothing, then how would they manifest themselves if not through possessing people or causing these things that, as you also sort of say, that pharmaceuticals can’t even touch. It seems like we’ve been trying for the last 100 years plus, ever, basically, ever since the discovery of adrenaline in 1901. But we’ve been trying to figure out what this weird toxin x might be in the brain that causes people to act differently or act violently or act like criminals.

And we’ve gone through phrenology and eugenics and all sorts of ways to get there. But 100 years plus later, it doesn’t seem like we’re any closer to using conventional science or medicine in order to solve any part of this other than chemical castration and death penalty chemicals. Those are, like, the only two developments that seem to have any impact. Yeah. And to be clear, let me emphasize that, you know, we’re talking about the most extreme version of these offenders, right? Because, like, there are some violent offenders who do get better and they don’t reoffend. It’s not as common as we’d like, but if they’re not getting Netflix specials, we don’t care about them.

Right? Okay, fair enough. Yeah, but we’re talking about, like, Ed Kempert’s head bunny. No, as far as I’m concerned, and somebody, you know, might want to challenge me and say that I’m wrong, that’s fine. I would just want to say, show me the evidence. As far as I’m concerned, there isn’t a form of therapy or a pharmaceutical or a combination that has rehabilitated an individual like this. As far as demons are concerned, I’m just open to the possibility. Because how else this is for me personally, this is not a psychology perspective. This is for a me Cameron perspective.

For some of these people who’ve done things that are just so disturbing, so out of the norm, we don’t always have an explanation for why they’re doing it, whether it’s brain scans or trauma based information, their psyche. Sometimes there are things that I’ve seen in my life where I can’t rationally explain why somebody has done something like that. And in the deepest parts of my mind, I’m like, man, maybe they’re. Maybe they were possessed by a demon. I don’t know. But I’ve had the thought cross my mind. There was one weird, like, again, to bring up the most extreme examples, because they usually make the best points sometimes, even though we’re usually describing the tiny little minority of all the examples out there, most of them are somewhat mundane compared to the heavy hitter cases.

But, like, one of the Dahmer explanations was that his fascination with visceral gore and, like, entrails and all of this was that there was a misfiring in his brain where. That we have this innate sense to seek out water in, say, in, like, deserts or in dry climates, and that the shine of blood or the shine of intestines, rigors, some weird button in the back of your brain that’s like. Like a mirage in a desert that’s like, oh, there’s sustenance over here. Go get that sustenance. I don’t know how accurate that is. Again, everyone just kind of tries to explain the unexplainable when it comes to these minds, which, again, is what makes the intent part so weird.

But parting question. Last question. I’m just curious, do you have any particular opinion on the son of Sam murders, whether that was a one person lone wolf operation or, like, a full colt operation? I believe it was a cult activity, and he said as much. There’s a documentary on Netflix you can watch called the Sons of Sam where this idea is explored. And it’s. Honestly, there’s a very deep hole of information that ties to even people in Hollywood. There was a guy who, like, dedicated his whole life to trying to understand this dude, and it cost him everything.

It cost him his family, his career. Like, just. He went down as far down the rabbit hole as you could, and he really didn’t come up with many answers. But there does seem to be an element of cult activity when we’re talking about son of Sam, so. And I think we just brought it full circle because that ties back in the process. Church, if you believe in the cult angle, which is, I think, is close to where we started in all this. Yeah. So perfect circles always. Just like the circular globe that everyone’s going to get me triggered about in the comments now.

So, yeah, welcome, and thanks again for coming on and talking about a bunch of weird stuff with me, Cameron Harmon, from what’s under the mask, which is a podcast and a book. Do you have any plugs that you want to throw at us before we cut out? No. If you want to find more about me, you can look at my check on my website. What’s underthemask.com dot? My social media links and information about my book. My coming book will be there. All right. Right on. Well, um, I guess, uh, it’s. It’s time to go out and, you know, treat people right out in the world.

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