➡ The speaker discusses their experiences with Mormonism, initially finding it interesting due to its novelty compared to other religious texts. They recall positive interactions with Mormons in the military, noting their helpful and upstanding behavior. However, they express skepticism about joining the religion, citing concerns about hidden aspects and potential deception. They also discuss the idea that religion can provide a beneficial structure for some individuals, particularly those struggling with addiction.
➡ The text discusses the complexities and secrets within Mormonism, comparing it to freemasonry and new age Christianity. The speaker expresses frustration about discovering hidden aspects of the religion after leaving it, and discusses the harm of spreading misinformation or lies within a society. The text also delves into the story of Joseph Smith and his seer stone, which he allegedly borrowed and never returned, leading to speculation about the truth of his claims. The speaker concludes by expressing shock at the recent revelation of the stone’s existence.
➡ The speaker discusses the Mormon church’s history and its future, including its recent establishment of a temple in Rome. They speculate that the church might be part of a future one-world religion, blending elements from various faiths. The speaker also mentions the church’s past controversies, such as the excommunication of members and its ties to Masonry. They express curiosity about how the church will evolve in the next 200 years.
➡ The text discusses the complexities of religious beliefs, focusing on Catholicism and Mormonism. It suggests that understanding these religions requires knowledge of their historical decisions and doctrines. The text also explores the wealth of these churches, hinting at possible financial scandals. Lastly, it debates the intentions of religious leaders, particularly Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, questioning whether he was genuinely guided by divine inspiration or had ulterior motives.
➡ The speaker is discussing their recent activities, including releasing new content twice a week on Spotify and once a week on YouTube. They mention an upcoming interview with Nathan Reynolds and other interesting topics they’re exploring, such as the role of Nazis and Mormonism. They also mention their involvement in a live harp technology demonstration. The speaker also promotes a set of over 200 conspiracy-themed cards from Paranoid American and ends with a rap verse.
➡ The text discusses a story from the book “Mormonism Unveiled” by Eber Howell. It tells about Joseph Smith Sr.’s account of a spirit appearing to his son, Joseph, and instructing him to find a golden record in a specific place. The story includes details about Joseph dressing in black, riding a black horse, and encountering a toad that transforms into a man. The text also mentions a scandal involving a man named Hoffman and discusses various interpretations and questions about the story.
➡ A man named Joseph was supposed to retrieve a book but failed due to his fear and greed. A toad-like creature, which turns into a man, punishes him each time he tries to take the book. The creature tells Joseph to return in a year with his oldest brother to get the book. However, his brother dies within the year, and Joseph is told to bring another man. He chooses Samuel T. Lawrence, a fellow treasure hunter, but later decides Lawrence is not the right man.
➡ The text tells a story about Joseph, who had a disagreement with a friend and later fell in love with a girl named Emma. Despite being younger and poorer than Emma, Joseph wanted to marry her, but her parents disapproved. To win her over, Joseph convinced another friend, Lawrence, to fund a trip to Pennsylvania under the pretense of finding a silver mine, promising to work for him for free if they found nothing. When they didn’t find any silver, Joseph used the trip to get closer to Emma, leaving Lawrence to bear the costs.
➡ Emma, despite her parents’ disapproval, eloped with Joseph Smith Sr., a man known for treasure hunting. After their marriage, Joseph needed to earn money and came up with a scheme involving a large bar of gold he claimed to have found. He convinced a man named Stowell to fund his move to Manchester, promising to share the gold, but later backed out. Joseph then tried to convince Willard Chase to make a chest for a supposed golden book, promising him a share of the spoils, but Chase refused.
➡ A man found a book on a hill, hid it in a tree, and then went to work. After hearing rumors that someone had taken the book, he rushed home, retrieved it, and was attacked by two men but managed to escape. He then tricked a neighbor into making him a chest by telling him a false story about the book. Later, he convinced a rich man named Martin Harris to give him money by claiming he needed it to translate a golden Bible. However, many of his claims, including a prophecy about his future child, turned out to be false.
➡ A man named Mark Hoffman created fake historical documents using old materials to make them seem authentic. He sold one such document, a letter, to a bishop named F. Christensen for $40,000 in 1984. The letter, which was later taught in schools and churches, was believed to be a better version of a controversial story within the church. However, Hoffman was eventually caught and imprisoned, where he stopped talking and attempted to take his own life.
➡ The text discusses the controversies and disputes within the early Mormon church, including skepticism about the origins of the Book of Mormon and accounts of polygamy before it was publicly acknowledged. It also mentions the impact of the McClellan papers, which contained criticisms of Joseph Smith’s leadership and accounts of early church leadership disputes. The text also touches on the murder related to the Hoffman case, which led to further complications for the church. Lastly, it discusses the steadfast belief in the Book of Mormon by some, despite their disillusionment with Smith.
➡ The text discusses a man named Morgan who had multiple wives, with the first wife being the most important. It also talks about a man named Hoffman who was disillusioned with Mormonism and tried to discredit it while making money. The text suggests that the Mormon church may have known about Hoffman’s forgery and used it to control the narrative. The text also mentions folk magic and goetic magic, suggesting that these practices were involved in the story.

It’s monthly. Warmer Mondays. It’s time for the secret handshake, toad it in, and race through the veil. It’s time for a monthly moment. Monday, one more episode where Heidi gets to convince me to not join Mormonism. I’ve already filled out my application. Uh, I’m not allowed to get the underpants and all that stuff until that goes through first. But here’s your chance. Here’s your final chance before I take the plunge into this big underground bath. I don’t know how it actually works, but I’m looking forward to finding out firsthand. And I have you to thank anyway.

You and Andreas are the ones that kind of pushed me down this road. So thank. Thank you to both of you. You really aren’t going to be a Mormon, are you? It’s interesting. No, I don’t think. I don’t think I’m at risk of becoming a Mormon. But I’m not sold on it. You know what I mean? I found it interesting. The first time I found Book of Mormon, I was in the military, and you’re not allowed to really have anything, but they stock it with religious books. I’ve read the Bible a few times, like, boring. Get over.

It happened so long ago, right? But the Book of Mormon was so much newer, and it almost felt like I was reading, like, a director’s cut of the Bible or like, a weird alternate version of the Bible where it’s got the, like, all the cast members that I know. It was like a weird holiday special Star wars version of Bible. I don’t know. I. It was appealing the first time, and I just all out some cause. Someone emailed me and was like, what’s your deal with lds? Are you lds? Ex lds, pro lds? No. But I did through personal experience, again, in the military.

But I don’t know what it was. This particular job that I was on, like, half of the officers were Mormons, and my direct, my, like, supervisor was a Mormon at that point, and I couldn’t know where to place it cause I had no interaction Mormons at any point. But it always felt like he was putting on this absolute goody two shoes, Mister Milkman Persona. But the dude, like, turned up. If you ever needed help, like, even if you weren’t a great person, even if you were a dick to everyone, like, he was always there, always willing to help, always work, willing to work stuff out.

And it came across as, like, a very upstanding guy. Maybe he was going home and, like, beating people and doing all kinds of nasty things. But I don’t assume so. Yeah, most of them are repressed. He said, well, I don’t know if it was. Well, maybe he was repressed, but it was like such a. Like a pleasant version of repressed that it. It sort of expressed itself in a great way. Like, I made a really strong impression on me. I still, at that point, I had no respect for Mormonism or any other religion. So it was almost like these, you know, this rube, these idiots.

I don’t think. I don’t necessarily think that way anymore. And especially now, in retrospect, I still think about that one guy and a couple of the other Mormons that I worked with is like, man, maybe there was something to that because they really did straight up, like, live the sharpenero. Now, I looked him up, and he might be. I think he might use in jail now for serial killing. But if you ignore that part, which I just made up. But it wouldn’t surprise me. But that’s my regular people are actually really good people. Like, a lot of my family and a lot of my husband’s family, they really do strive to be really good people.

And they don’t know, like, when I bring the weird to you, that’s why I say, like, you probably would be disappointed when you join, because the weird doesn’t happen till you get out and go, what the hell was that? You know, because you can’t look it up because you’re not supposed to. You’re just supposed to live on the straight and narrow, and there’s many, many rules that keep them that way. And honestly, I mean, I’ll tell you an example. My cousin, my family in general, there’s a lot of addiction in my family. And I had one cousin, well, he’s still here, but that was very, very into the Mormon church, and it kept him on the straight and narrow.

And when he doesn’t go to church a lot, he completely falls off the wagon and starts using tons of drugs and goes bat shit crazy. Do I think he should be a Mormon? Yeah. You know, but not because I believe in Mormonism or because I. I think it’s bad or good or whatever, but it helps him. Right, right. Like, it helps him be a better man. Honestly, what you’re really saying is should. Should he have an external structure of some kind? And it helps him if he already knows that one and you don’t have to, like, relearn a whole thing and all the rules, then, yeah, I can definitely.

I feel. I feel identical to almost every religion out there. Right? Yeah. I wanted to see, except for. But I don’t have one in mind. If people. If people choose to do this and have the knowledge, like Andreas always says, like, oh, if they know all the weird stuff up front and all this, then. Then I think that’s a totally different game. Like, I think that’s okay. Then, you know, like, if they lie to you about it, like, me, and you get upset later because you were lied to that now I’m not keeping your secrets. I didn’t make the secret.

Like, I didn’t want to do that. Like, you didn’t tell me we were going into this and making this whole thing because of a different reason than goddess. If it was about God, then my mouth would still be shut. But it almost feels like so many religions try to be M. Night Shyamalan movies where you have to make it to the very end, and then they’re like, and now here’s this crazy twist. Now, Z knew is here, right? There’s a great example. And I understand just to answer my own sorry beforehand, but it’s almost like a.

The reason they don’t do that is because you want mass appeal. You don’t want just the people that are super into z new, because you don’t get the same type of people that are there for all the other more vague stuff. But just imagine a world and where every religion and cult, like, like, a Nxivm came up. In an interview I did recently, imagine if when you went to go and join nXiVM, they were like, by the way, we’re gonna call you up at 03:00 a.m. to, like, go sprint and run and get yelled at. And we’re gonna brand your wife, you know.

Yeah, we’re gonna brand your wife with my name and my girlfriend’s name. We’re just gonna brand her. And if you’re still cool with that, then join. It’s okay then. That’s, you know, that’s now participating adults, anything over 18, if you are. Like, I always say, because people always come at me, they’re like, what about the Catholics? Well, what? I’m like, yeah, you guys are right. Like, whatever. But, like, also, they don’t keep as many secrets in temples and all this crap. So, like, I. It, you know, Scientology, same thing. But try and find a scientologist that’ll come on and talk to us.

That ain’t going to happen. So here we are. We become. We become sp or op. I don’t remember what. It’s suppressive persons or oppressive person. Yeah, oppressive I think it’s maybe oppressive, whatever. They both work. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, it’s just one of those things where, you know, it’s. It’s what I grew up in, so, of course I’m going to talk about it. But, I mean, you know, I’m kind of like the. The ex wife that got the husband and got a new girlfriend and didn’t tell me. Like, I’m that mad. So that’s, you know, not my secret, baby.

Yeah. I can’t pretend to know all 40,000 denominations of Christianity, but that. That has usually been one of the selling points of. And I’ll say normal, if anyone gets triggered. But, like, normal Christianity or even Catholicism, I guess Catholicism is a little bit of a separate, because they do have Opus Dei, which is supposed to be a secret society within, but I don’t. I don’t know anything about Opus Dei. My grandparents were Opus de. That’s an episode for the future. Cool episode. Yeah. They didn’t tell me anything about it, so I would have to just read a book or watch a dog like anyone else.

But the one of the traits, I guess, of Christianity is, I’ve always understood it, is that they’re not supposed to have any secrets. There’s no such thing as, you make it to a final boss level, and then they’re like, all right. And this whole time, you know, it was really. He knew. You don’t get cool. You don’t get any of that cool. All you really do is if you get deep enough the theology, then you might start getting into, like, okay, here’s what the trinity means. And, like, metaphysical concepts and all these weird bylaws, but it lacks that Shyamalan style twist, which is why I guess mormonism was always so weird to me, because it does away with that, and it adds secrets back on.

It’s. It’s freemasonry plus new age Christianity. Right? Yeah. Well, I dare say that already existed, and he just kind of coughed it a little. Well, he did a better job. You know, just. Just, like, you know, Pepsi and Coke. French Martin is beta masks. Like, it was already there, the tech was there, but someone just promoted it better. He had to channel it in better. And he got a better channel, right? He got a better broadcasting station for him. And, I mean, it’s whatever. Like I say, I’m not hating on people that are in it. They don’t even know half this stuff.

Like, I didn’t know what the second anointing was until I got out of the church and I was in it my entire life. So, I mean, and I’m pretty sure my grandma had it. So there’s that, like, you with the opus day thing, you know, it’s just like, oh, shit, that’s so secret, we can’t even talk about it. Yeah, it’s like, oh, okay, cool, great. Like, and then you find this stuff out later, and you’re just like, what is going on? Like, this is. No, I don’t like this. If I’m going to keep a secret, I want somebody to be like, this is for this reason.

This is why you do this. And so, yeah, then you consent and go on your merry way, you know, like, but not. Not for that. Not for a lie. I don’t. I just hate lies. I’m a very honest person to be. To be truthful. Like, I always tell my kids there’s nothing worse than a liar and a thief. And. And I mean, that, and that’s how I was raised. And I just was raised by a really hard ass. And that’s it. I mean, honestly, that’s. That’s a pretty classical christian mentality, too, because even in Dante’s inferno and the different layers of hell, frauds and thieves are more harshly punished than people that use violence.

Right. And the reason is because lying and stealing, if you were to harm somebody, that harms that one person, maybe like, their immediate family and everything, but when you start lying and introducing thievery and fraud into a society, it harms the entire society in irreparable ways that at least violence you can stamp out. Violence can be isolated, but when fraud becomes widespread, there’s no real easy way to, like, make people stop lying. So that’s. It’s an interesting concept that. Yeah. What about passing on the fraud as the truth and then your whole generations down believe a lie that is the truth to them and they don’t even know they’re lying.

So that’s a whole nother rabbit hole. I’ve got mixed feelings on that, though, because the. And without getting too much on a tangent, but it seems like such a fine line between a lie and being misinformed yourself. Like, every, every book that I remember growing up with in school, public school, at least, like, science books, they. They would change stuff around. Like, oh, actually, we figured out it doesn’t work that way. Well, is that a lie? It feels like, you know, in a machiavellian sense, in a n justifies the mean sense. Yeah. It’s no different than if someone sat down, they were like, I’m gonna plant this dinosaur bone and say it was real, even though it’s paper mache, I’m gonna do that.

And then they do it versus they found it and they got duped, and then they just kind of, I don’t know, the end result is identical. It’s just the intent that goes into it. And I think that you can’t ever really prove someone’s intent. They can even be lying about making it up or not back in the day, just like, I guess a good segue into this whole salamander frog stuff. And I guess to put a feather on the top of that hat, too, that we were talking about how Mormonism does have secrets, unlike a bunch of other versions of Christianity.

But when you got these secrets that you literally are not allowed to talk about, you’re not allowed to google it. You have to get to a certain level and pass tests before they give you this information. All that does is it invites crazy amounts of speculation. And now when someone just goes and plants a story out on Reddit somewhere or on a random blog or a YouTube video, they could, like, potentially you could just make something up, just be like, oh, Joseph Mormon said this. And then you’ll just have people like, they lie about so much stuff.

You know, maybe he say that. And this is one of those things, right? So the topic is a combination of frog. Frog men and salamander, magical salamanders in the Mormon church. And I guess the original idea, or the premise was I had read, and it might have been in that book that we covered. It was like magic and early mormonism. Yep, that’s where it is. And that book sort of pointed towards that Joseph Smith made a claim that Moroni or some other divine Mister spirit had turned into a frog. And to paraphrase it, it was like it punched him or something.

Like he battled it and was protecting like one of these golden plate. So anyways, I tried to find the source of that. I think I found the source of it. There’s just one of them. And it doesn’t necessarily come from Joseph Smith. It comes from a guy named Willard Chase. Willard Chase? Yes. He was in the looking glass testimony. So it is actually an affidavit because they called the family to court to testify against him. Willard Chase was a neighbor and a friend to the Joseph Smith family. So how much of a friend? Like, was he one of those neighbor friends that also reports you to the hoa because, like, your shrubs got overgrown? Or was he, like, legitimately altruistic towards the Smith family? Legitimately a friend.

But I would say this. He might have been. Now, I can’t. I can’t say the timing on it, because I don’t know the timing between when he stole the rock, the seeing stone from Willard Chase, and when they went to court. But they were friends before that, and they had dug wells on their property. They had been treasure digging for this family. So it was pretty well established relationship between the two families. And this account actually was in his affidavit. But also there were. Benjamin Saunders also spoke about it, and so did Joseph Smith Sr. So there’s accounts from all three.

Right? So you make a good point, and a dynamic here is that they were copacetic, they were friends to each other. But at some point, Joseph Smith, bar, in very hard quotes, borrowed the famous seer stone that he used to translate the original book of Mormon. And he got that seer stone from Willard Chase. That wasn’t one of the ones that Joseph Smith found on his own. And I was, after you create the Book of Mormon, you’re like, this is mine now. I own this now. And he never gave it back. He just said he was still borrowing it.

Okay, I’m not done with it. The book’s still coming out. So when Willard Chase makes his affidavit, it is at least reasonable to speculate that their relationship had changed slightly since all this had occurred. I wonder. I wonder if that had some to do with it. But I do say there’s, like, multiple other accounts, including Benjamin Saunders, and that account is in Mormonism unveiled, and as well as his own dad. So I don’t think his dad would slander him. Like, I just. Yeah, I mean, they very much believed in this stuff. You know, they were a magical family.

Like, I think the pretense of the magical family is so important when we talk about this that it was nothing back then to have these kind of things happen to magical people. And so for us to hear it sounds absolutely crazy. But for them, I wonder, you know, how crazy does it sound when your grandpa’s named Ozo, if you’re a current Mormon right now? Right. Is Willard Chase considered, like, an oppressive person? Are that. Are you not allowed to talk about Willard Chase and Mormonism? No, not. No. I knew who Willard Chase was. I just thought it was baloney because they act of Mormon.

Do you know that he took his stone and didn’t give it back? Is that all part of canon? Oh, no, no, no. Because we didn’t know about a stone until two years ago. Remember? It was the urim and thummim and being studious with the breastplate of righteousness and the spectacles. We didn’t know nothing about this stone until very briefly ago when they pulled out, yanked out the hat with the current president of the church. And I was like, holy crap, South park was right. Like, that’s crazy, because we were just told it was nonsense, and we just believe that.

Don’t look up anything. Doubt your doubts. Don’t doubt your faith, Thomas. So it’s such a. It’s a weird spot because this comes from. And I’m going to read through the full account, like the official Willard Chase account, which is him retelling what senior Smith told him. So it’s like a story of a story, right in court, but it’s from this book, from Eber Howell book called Mormonism Unveiled. And with a specific note that it’s spelt unveiled with an a u n v a I l e d. Which I don’t know if it’s a misspelling or an intentional misspelling to make a point, but anyways, it seems relevant that it’s a misspelled version of Mormonism unveiled.

But inside, I would assume that a regular Mormon’s not allowed to read or own this book yet. It has a lot of information that you’re technically not banned from knowing. It’s just you. It wouldn’t come up outside of a context where you’re like, hey, this is weird. Right? And that makes it better? Well, so I know we’ll get into Hoffman, but I truly believe the Hoffman scandal was to make this go away. So whenever we heard this as church members. Right? Uh, they’re like, no, stupid. Didn’t you hear? That was like a lie. That was a lie.

Duh. And so whenever you ask those questions, they’re like, no, that was a lie. The guy’s in prison. He killed people. And I’m like, oh, okay, so you’re. You’re selling it again. So this version is so much cooler than any story that I remember reading through. Um, right, the regular book of Mormon. Right? So there’s like, a black horse, and there’s like this whole. Okay, so. So here’s the account. I’ll start getting through it, and I’ll pause just so we can make notes on this. So this is directly from Mormon unveiled. Mormonism unveiled by Iber Howe.

And it says, in the month of June 1827, Joseph Smith Sr. Related to me the following story, that years ago, a spirit appeared to Joseph, his son, in a vision and informed him that in a certain place, there was a record on plates of golden. And that he was the person that must obtain them. And that he must do it in the following manner. On the 22 September, he must repair to the place where it was deposited the manuscript. Dressed in black clothes. And riding a black horse with a switch tail. And demand the book and a certain name.

And after obtaining it, he must go directly away. Neither lay it down nor look behind him. This already sounds like an awesome intro to, like, at least a tv show, if not a movie, right? Oh, and certain lunar phases and all kinds of things that I don’t think. I don’t know if they mention in here, but, yeah, for sure. Do you even know what a switch tale is? I don’t even know what that means. I don’t even know what that is. Okay. So he. So he rides up. September 22. He’s decked out in black. He’s got a black horse with whatever the hell a switchtail is.

He shouts out the name of a book. And then, I guess, just dot, dot, dot. Does it, like, appear out of nowhere? Does he just notice it? And it was there the whole time? Who knows? But it was in a fog. Yeah, it was in a fog. And then it. And then it became the toad. And then it became like a man. We’ll get to the toe. We’ll get to the toad. Okay, so. So he hears this instruction. So it says. They accordingly fitted Joseph with a suit of black clothes. And borrowed a black horse. He repaired to the place of deposit, demanded the book.

Which was in a stone box, unsealed. And so near the top of the ground. So he could see one end of it raising up. He took out a book of gold. But fearing someone might discover where he got it. He laid it down to place back on the top stone as he found it. And turning around, to his surprise. There was no book in sight. He again opened the box, saw the book, attempted to take it out. But was hindered. He saw in the box something like a toad. Which soon assumed the appearance of a man.

And struck him on the side of the head. So I’m going to stop here. Because there’s a few things that I’m already questioning. How big is this box that the toad shows up in it. And then takes on the form of a man? Or is it like a toad sized man? Or does the toad jump out of the box. And then turn into a full sized mandeh? So many questions, not many answers. It did say on another one, there’s two. And this second one said. It immediately transformed itself into a spirit. So I think there’s some answers there, but it depends, right? Like, there’s two different.

That’s like an. I think this might be Benjamin Saunders account. So, um, I mean, I have to tell you guys this. There is a podcast, I don’t know if we should say, because I don’t want to be in trouble, but I sent it to you, and it has a recounting of a guy, like, now alive, now that swears he sold his soul to Baal and that he was running in the forest chasing a toad. And the toad became a man and talked to him, and he was like a kid, and he, like, basically sold his soul to the devil.

And I bout choked. I was, like, outside doing something. I was like, hold on. I had to put everything down. And I was like, holy crap. I’ve heard this one before. Like, and this was on, like, a. A creatures, you know, podcast. Like, not. Not anything like us. Like, no, no. They’re talking about, like, bigfoots and stuff. And so I was like, this is weird. I mean, how could it be so similar, right? But I don’t know. Maybe he read the account. I don’t know. You know, kind of strange. You know about familiars, right? Which is familiars.

Do you know about this? Yeah, like Harry Potter’s little owl or whatever. Well, yeah. So they actually believed in this stuff back in the day and that it could transport, like, familiars can transport witches. Salamanders are, like, also, like, kind of related with rosicrucianism. There’s all kinds of stuff about that. And also, like, the whole transporting witches from this frog. And so I’m like, hmm. I mean, are you implying the toad is a familiar? I have always stated that Moroni could not be an angel because he was already alive and dead, which makes him necromancy. Joseph was summoning.

He summoned on the perfect night, which it goes completely into this stuff about when it has to be and how and everything about summoning and necromancy. They called it necromancy, which made me laugh. But anyway, long story short that this Moroni popped up, like, as you know, necromancy calls. So I don’t doubt that there was something very weird. And if you listen to the story about the book and the chest, do you remember the story with John D when they were coming for his books and they were like, yo, go burn all your shit. Do you remember this story? You told me this one before.

Yeah, yeah. And then it. And then they just appeared to again and they were fine, like, because they were gonna kill him for witchcraft, and he totally went to jail for it and everything. But, like, this is kind of similar. Like, I don’t know. I don’t know. It strikes me, too, though, that the instructions aren’t that difficult. It’s pretty simple. It’s wear black, get a black horse, go into this area, shout out the name of a book. When the book pops up, you grab it and you immediately leave. And he does that, except as soon as the book appears, he literally puts it down.

The instructions were, do not lay it down. And he lays it down. So he already did the wrong thing. There’s multiple problems if he’s doing this as a summoning. First of all, his brother was supposed to come, and his brother has now died suddenly of constipation, and his doctor accidentally killed him. Hmm, very interesting. He was the firstborn. I say it was faustian. But whatever, they dug him up, you know, they dug him up to get his bum. I mean, they say you brought this up before on another episode. Did this push the date with, does this still happen on September 22? Or did they have to change that? No, no, everything was still the same.

And they actually, the only reason why we know about the account is because it’s in the newspaper articles, which I have. It’s from the Palmyra. They ran it, like, three different times. Joseph Smith, SrDH, because he was so upset that they said that the town was gossiping that he had mutilated his son’s body. Because everybody knew Joseph was supposed to this big secret. That wasn’t a secret. Supposed to go talk to the angel again on this day, and Alvin was supposed to be there. And instead he took his wife, his new wife, Emma, so she couldn’t come over where he was.

Of course not. Came with. Yeah, she came with. But they did say he had fear in his heart, which was one of the problems. They said that also he had thought of the wealth and riches of it. That was a big no no. So that was why the toad punched him and was like, bruh. Plus, he didn’t mind the directions. Okay, so he show. And it almost feels like a sword in the stone type of story where you have to be righteous in order to get it. And then in this case, a frog punches you every time you try and take the book.

So. So, yeah, let me continue the account. So it strikes him on the side of the head, this toad or the man. I guess it’s toad that turns into a man and the man hits him. We don’t know how big the man is. I’ll assume it’s, like, human sized man. They did say Joseph was really strong and that he used to be a wrestler, so I’m assuming pretty good size. Well, you wouldn’t say that. Your leader is, like, a frail person, I guess. I don’t know, but it’s okay. So, Joseph, not being discouraged again, stooped down and tried to take the book when the spirit struck him again, knocked him three or four times, and hurt him greatly.

So now he’s getting beat up by this. This toad man, this. This leveling frog creature. Right. And then it says, after not recovering from his fright, which goes to your. He had fear in his heart. He inquired why he could not obtain the plates, to which the spirit replied, because you have not obeyed your orders. He then inquired when he could have them and was answered, come one year from this day, bring you your oldest brother, and you shall have them. So this was, what, prior to his brother dying? Okay, so he goes there. This happened a lot.

Yeah. But he’s not allowed to get the book. And this. This feels like one of those classic trust is like, yeah, I went there, and everything happened, but I don’t have any of the proof, and just because, you know, I got to go back next year and do this again. Okay. Yes. And he didn’t keep some commandment that was. I miss. I mean, I’m assuming it was purity, but whatever. This. I mean, this has the makings of a good story, though, right? Because if one of those starts out, you got to show all the character flaws that the person has to overcome.

So this frog man that knocks him out is literally pointing out his character flaws and saying, okay, you’ve got a year to work on yourself and come back and try again. Yeah. Get your stuff together. What. What a Mormon you are with a sailor’s mouth. Right. I know. My. You know, I told you I was raised by bikers and truckers. So Jack Mormons all the way down, it sounds like. Yep. Except the grandma set. The grandma. No, no. Grandma was benevolent. Yes. Oh, got. Okay, so the. This spirit, he said, was the spirit of the prophet who wrote the book and was sent to Joseph Smith to make this known to him before the expiration of the year his older brother died, to which the old man said was an accidental providence.

The old man being Willard Chase. Joseph went one year from that day to demand the book, and the spirit inquired for his brother, and he said it was dead. The spirit then commanded again in another year, bring a man with him, asking, who might be that man. It was answered, he would know when he saw him. So Joseph believed that one Samuel T. Lawrence was the man alluded to by the spirit and went to him on a single hill in Manchester and showed him where the treasure was. So Samuel T. Lawrence, give me the lowdown on the ex motake on a Samuel T.

Lawrence. Well, I. Wasn’t he one of the treasure diggers with him originally? I think that was what his deal was. So everyone we’re talking about right now, Willard Chase, Joseph Smith and Samuel Lawrence, these are all treasure hunters. So do you not know this little group of treasure hunters were called the latter day Saints? Really? Yes. And so they had a little group and they would share, and they were pissed at Joseph when he did supposedly get these plates, because he was. They all, like, would go treasure digging, and then, whatever the spoils were, everybody would share, even if somebody wasn’t there on one of the digs or whatever.

And so this was kind of known that they did this together. They were looking for Captain Kidd’s treasure in that area because it was like a whole big story about Captain Kidd crashing in this area and stuff. And so they were, like, basically doing a Oak island early on. And so they were mad at Joseph because he was, like, saying, no, these are benevolent. I’m not going to sell them. And they were like, no, you’re. You’re going to spit them out. Like, come on. And they came at his house and looked for him, beat him up a couple times.

Like it was serious. Yeah, they were pissed. This totally sounds like Oak island, but except the cliffhanger. Every season finale is like, right, we got it. But the spirit says to come back next year, so we’ll see you all guys on season three of Joseph Smith, treasure hunter. That’s right, that’s right. It’s a little Indiana Jones, a little Oak island. We’re all there. Yep. So. So the spirit tells Joseph, for the second time, he sees them come back with a. With one of your bros. And Joseph’s like, I got the perfect guy. One of my treasure hunter bros.

So he. He goes to Samuel T. Lawrence, and Lawrence asked him if he ever discovered anything with the plates of gold. And Joseph said no. He then asked them to look in his stone to see if there was anything in them. Joseph looked and said there was nothing. But then Lawrence tells him to look again and see if there’s not a large pair of specks with the plates. He looked and soon saw a pair of spectacles, the same which Joseph says he translated the Book of Mormon. Lawrence told him it would not be prudent to let these plates be seen for two years.

I would make a great disturbance in the neighborhood. Not long after, Joseph altered his mind and said Lawrence was not the right man, nor had he told him the right place. There’s a lot here going on that I. That I almost need to slow down and break. So he gets his homie and he tell, and he shows his friend all this, and he’s like, I don’t know what’s going on. Then his friends like, dude, use the stones. And he’s like, I don’t see anything. He’s like, yeah, use the stones and look for glasses. He does that.

These glasses, I guess they just, like, materialize. And now he picks up the glasses and uses the spectacles to read. So is it the seer stone leads you to. This feels like a classic rpg where you’re like, all right, I found the seer stone in the magical woods, and you got to give it to the wizard in the fire pit. And then he trades you or he crafts it from the stone and the glasses. Then you got to go back to where you got the stone and use the glasses so you can read and get to the next level.

This sounds like Zelda. It’s perfect, actually, for this month because it’s the magical world of Joseph. Right? Like Harry Potter. Very Harry Potter. You’re selling it more. You’re getting me more. I know, but. But you got to get the top cop level. I’m telling you, all this fun stuff is later. Later. Got to be, like, one of the top. Okay, so. So Lawrence tells him after he does all this, and Joseph’s like, damn, I found, you know, now there’s something here. And Lawrence is like, dude, this is so big. You can’t tell anyone. This is going to just rock people’s minds.

People are going to be jumping off of buildings. They won’t know what to do with themselves. So apparently, what, two years solves that. But, like, what happens in two years that makes the rest of the world receptive to this? Are they going to, like, silently leak it out bit by bit? That doesn’t say that. It just says, wait two years. As if, I don’t know, like, what’s going to happen in two years from now? Yeah, I have no idea. I don’t know what the end result of that one was. Like, why? But that this was all Angelica order, so.

And I. I don’t know if this is true, so I’m just going to make an out loud assumption, but it seems like when it says Joseph altered his mind and that Lawrence was not the right man and that he had not told him the right place. It sounds like they had a falling out. They’re no longer bros. Well, yeah, because he went to his house and told him, if you don’t show me those plates right now, like, he’s like, no, no. Because if you see him, like, you’re. You’re gonna burn in hell, basically. And he’s like, bro, bring it.

He’s like, that’s cool. He’s like, I. He’s like, bring hell. I want to see him. And then they got in a fight, and it was a whole big thing. So I feel that’s something that I would say, too. Like, let’s do it, man. He was like, I don’t care. Let it live. Stream this thing. Yeah. He was not it. And then Joseph was like, well, I don’t know where they went, so. Yeah, okay. All right. I’m following along this account, so. Okay, here’s the next branch of it. So, about this time, Joseph goes to harmony in Pennsylvania and forms an acquaintance with a young lady by the name Emma Hale, who he wished to marry in the fall of 1826.

He wanted to go to Pennsylvania to be married, but being broke, he tried to find work and how he could raise money, get recommendations to procure the fair one of his choice. He had to prove that he wasn’t no scrub, leaning out his best friend’s ride or what. There’s a problem that they don’t like to mention. Emma was of age. Joseph was not. She was 19, and he was 17. And this was, like, apparently scandalous at this time, I think she was 19. He was too young to even ask for a marriage, and so he. He couldn’t do it.

They were like, nah, you can’t. You can’t get married. You’re being crazy right now. Stop it. Go do your homework. Yeah. Dumb question, but is that a mormon thing? Are you allowed to marry a man younger than you, or are you supposed to marry up? Okay. No, no. I think it was just, uh, you had to be a certain age. I can’t remember what age. I’ll look it up. But it was, like, a specific age, so he. He wasn’t of age. So this is left out of that account. But they’re. They’re blaming it on just. He was broke, and he needed some money for that.

That big, like, bridezilla wedding that she wanted, right? So he go. He went to Lawrence with this following story as related to chase by Lawrence himself. So this is Willard Shay saying, that is exact? This is Lawrence’s version of the account that he had discovered in Pennsylvania on the bank of the Susquehanna river, a very rich mine of silver. And if he would go there with him, he might have a share in the profits. It was near high water, Mark, and they could load it into boats, take it down the river to Philadelphia to market. Lawrence asked Joseph if he was not deceiving him.

No, said he, for I have been there and seen it with my own eyes. And if you do not find it when we get there, I will bind myself to be your servant for three years. By these grave and fair promises, Lawrence was induced to believing something in it and agreed to go with them so that it sounds like they had already had some kind of falling out. But I don’t know if Joseph Smith has told Lawrence by now. Hey, you’re out, dude. Like now. Emma’s in. You’re out. Emma’s in. I’m going back to see the spirit without you next time.

Is that. Do you know anything about that or is Lawrence. So I think also there was some astrological aligning from what I read about Emma, that their marriage and her birthday and their, like, everything that lined up, and that was part of the reason why he wanted her to go. And she was 21 when they met. He was 19, I guess, when they actually got married. She was 22. So it wasn’t like, horribly scandalous. I mean, but he wasn’t of age, so it must be 21. I don’t know. And it’s interesting to me, too, because this is pre Crowley.

Like, this is before Crowley had any influence, they were still. This sounds like moonchild Richard. You know, you do know, actually, moon child, you know that Crowley specifically mentions Joseph Smith. He adored Joseph Smith and mentions him often. So, I mean, yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. Another piece of the puzzle worth looking into. Yeah. This Crowley. Maybe a future episode. Crowley. Yeah. It’s called, there’s actually a book about Crowley and Joseph Smith called the Beast and the prophet. Or it’s an article or a book, I can’t remember. But you know, who wrote it was, I think. Let me look really quick.

It was like some famous occultist, Peter Lavenda. Oh, okay. Yeah, I’m interested. I’ve read most of Lavender’s books. I don’t think I’ve come across that one. Yeah, this is specifically about the beast. There’s a definite future episode on that one. Yes, yes. Okay, so. So Joseph has a fallen out, and now Lawrence is like, I don’t know if I believe you. So Joseph’s like, no, bro, like, trust me. And if I’m wrong, then I’ll work for free for the next three years for you. So he’s like, all right, that sounds like a deal. Because I assume in the back of his mind, he’s like, this dude’s lying.

Right? Right. Lawrence finds out that Joseph is broke and had to bear his expenses on the way. So now Lawrence has got to pay for everything that Joseph is doing when they get to Pennsylvania. Joseph wanted Lawrence to recommend him to miss H. Which he did, although he was asked to do it, but it could not. Well, get rid of it as he was in his company. Uh, Lawrence then wished to see the silver mine. He and Joseph went to the river, made search. But get this. You’re going to be so surprised. Found nothing. You didn’t see that coming, did you? Want? Thus, Lawrence had, uh, had his trouble for his pains return home lighter than he went, while Joseph got his expenses born and a recommendation to his girl.

So Joseph uses this to pay to get to where he needed to go. Got the recommendation. And there’s really no downside on Joseph here, except he just already burnt a bridge that seemed like it had already been burned down anyways. Right, right. And I have to correct myself because I don’t want people coming at me. It’s called the angel and the sorcerer. So Lavenda. And there is another article called the beast and the prophet, but he didn’t write that. But, yes, I do think Joseph Washington. They say that the Jupiter talisman that he carried often let him walk into rooms.

And even people that were extremely angry with him for many things that he did, that he would walk out with you after the meeting, and you guys would be like, bros again. Like, it was a charismatic situation that he had. So I definitely don’t doubt that he used many things to his advantage. So. Yeah, yeah. Imagine if we could get our hands on one of those Jupiter talismans. And you just switched. Yeah, you can buy him. But wasn’t his, like, special? No. Yeah, his. I mean, I’m assuming it was, but, I mean, it didn’t help him the day he got killed, so.

True. I got a point. Charisma can only get you so far, but it can’t help you fly out of a window, so. Yep, nope, didn’t help. Okay, so Joseph’s next move, now that. Now that he had his ex friend pay for his way and got the recommendation, he wants to get married to Emma. But Emma’s parents are opposed? Because I guess they just don’t like him. I don’t know. They’re. They’re opposed to Joseph Smith getting married. He lived. He lived with them for a little while while he was treasure digging for the dad, actually. But then the dad was like, you can’t marry a treasure digger.

What are you doing? Even though I paid him to, like, be here. So also that. And then the age difference, and then he’s. Their family didn’t have a great reputation. The mom’s, like, a weird scottish healer folk lady magic doer. And the dad. Smith family didn’t have a reputation. No. No. Not only older, but richer and. And, like, I guess, more credentials. Yes. And his dad had a horrible drinking problem, was kind of known as the town drunk, and had all kinds of problems that we’re reading the account of. This is from the town drunk. Yeah.

Okay. Who knows? But Lucy MacSmith, in her letter where she mentions Abrac, the house of Abrac, she’s, like, basically telling her friend, like, hey, we’re not just lazy, just. Only doing magic. We do other stuff, too. And so she’s actually refuting that they’re lazy. So it was a thing. Like, it was like a whole known thing that they were just this weird family that stayed in and just came out at nighttime, and I. We’re just hunting treasure diggers. And, like, it wasn’t. It wasn’t what? That Emma Smith’s dad wanted for his kid? No. Okay. Again, this is.

It’s wild that this is an account from Joseph Smith Sr. Because it’s pretty much putting it all out there. So he says that despite Emma’s parents not wanting her to marry this treasure digger. And it’s kind of funny, right? The dad’s like, what, are you gonna marry a con man? She’s like, daddy, he’s conning you. You’re the one paying him. He’s like, that’s beside the point, Emma. I don’t want this for you. So they wait for her parents to go out of town. Kind of like if you’re throwing a freaking high school party, they go out of town on a work trip, and they use that chance to go in and elope, right? They immediately get married.

And now he realizes, okay, now I actually do need to make some money in order to sustain this lifestyle and move her out of her parents house. I assume I’m just making some assumptions there. So that didn’t really happen. I think they moved in their backyard. But, yes, the dad was very upset about this. He, like, literally, for a while I think they lived with Joseph’s family which that was a really tiny little place and I don’t think that worked. So then she moved back home and he was like you can live in the back shed kind of thing.

So. And she’s like this is still better than living with the Smiths. Yep, yep. Okay so. So Joseph’s plan and it’s, it’s funny the way that he phrases this is like he, he sets his wits at work like he’s going to go back to work but it never sounds like work because his next scheme is it sounds like the silver mine idea except he finds an old and honest old Dutchman by the name of Stowell and tells him that he discovered on the bank of the Black river in a village of Watertown, Jefferson County, New York, a cave which he had found a bar of gold as big as his leg and about three or 4ft long that he couldn’t get it out alone.

It was so huge and on its account of being fast at one end so. And if he would move him to Manchester they’d go together, take a chisel and mallet, get it and split it. So he finds this random guy somewhere. Where? Do you know where he finds him? This sounds like something you’d find in a bar. Like the guy’s drunk and he’s like hey, I found a bar. Bar gold. I actually think that guy married them if I remember correctly. Like he was like a friend. He was in deep. Yep, yep. I think he might have been their cousin.

Let me look it up really quick because I don’t want to say another wrong thing but I, I’m pretty sure that was right um, that he married them. So yeah, it was a whole thing. So. And again, just like you did with Lawrence once uh, this guy Stowell pays for him and Emma to move to Manchester. Then Joseph’s like ah, you know I’d go to this cave with you but like now my wife, she doesn’t know anyone in town. We’re just kind of these new transplants. I don’t feel right leaving her alone while we go to this cave.

So rain check bro. And the guy ends up leaving and going back home. So again, Joseph Smith had someone else pay for him to travel and like you know, find a new spot to keep moving so that this is kind of the end of this one section. It keeps going where he’s going to go and find the chest again but this is like the first main bit so then it says in the four part of September 1827, the prophet requested me to make a chest, informing that he designed to move back to Pennsylvania. This is still chase, I guess.

So Joseph Smith tells Willard Chase that the prophet wants him to make a chest. Or is Willard Chase saying that he talked to the prophet directly or the prophet? Now is Joseph Smith right? Well, I think if he hasn’t found the plates, if he hasn’t got them yet, I don’t think anything was full on yet. Okay, so Joseph Smith goes back to Willard Chase and says, hey, I’m going to move back to Pennsylvania and I’m going to get this gold book, but I need a chest in order to like, put this book in. So he tells Willard Chase to make this chest and then if he does this, he’ll share the spoils with him.

I already feel like this is going to follow a very similar pattern, but I won’t read ahead. Yes. So Willard tells him that he couldn’t make it, but if he brings the book to him, he’ll lock it up. Instead of making him this chest, he said that that would not do as he was commanded to keep it for two years without letting it come to the eye of anyone but himself. This commandment, however, he did not keep for in less than two years, twelve men said they had seen it. So how much of this do you think is true? Did twelve people really see the golden book? Did he have an actual golden book at some point in his life? Here’s, here’s, here’s the thing.

When you look into these witnesses, when you look deep into them, some are his cousins. Oliver Cowdery is his cousin. And also they all become excommunicated at some point. And also Martin Harris, who was the dumb dum dum dum dum on the south park story. He wasn’t the brightest. And he finally coughed up to what’s his name. He had an interview with this guy. I’ll think of his name in a minute. But anyway, he was doing it for this magazine that this guy would put out. And he said he saw it with his spiritual eyes. I don’t think any of them ever saw it.

And even Emma said, oh, the book was often there, the plates were often there on the side of table, but they were always covered with a cloth. Like, she’s such a ride or die girl. Man, that cloth would be off for sure if I was living there. No way. Nope. Straight to hell. Yep. I’m scared, everybody. Yeah, but even Joseph Smith himself is constantly violating whatever these spirits are telling him the first time he puts the book down. He wasn’t supposed to do that the next time. He’s not supposed to show it to anyone for two years.

And he immediately starts showing it the family members, if you believe this account of it. So, okay. So he goes, so this is Willard telling that aspect of it. And he’s like, talking about how Smith tried to keep convincing him to make this chess. And Smith goes to him one more time after he says this, and he’s like, look, as soon as I find this book, I’ve got to immediately put it in this chest and lock it up. So there’s no way, like, you have to make it for me now. I can’t convince you that this book exists.

I can’t get it and then tell you about it and then get the chest. Like, this all has to happen now. And Chase is just saying, like, sorry, dude, like, I can. And I’m thinking too, either. Chase is already onto Joseph Smith, and he’s just like, I wouldn’t give you anything at this point because you’re just lying all the time. Because make a chest for me. Maybe I’m under estimating how much work that is. But if you’re saying that I get to split in some great riches if I just make you a freaking chest, what are we talking, like a big, ornate chest here or just like a run of the mill wooden treasure chest with like, a lock iron? Well, maybe we’re also not taking into account that his sister had a seer stone.

Maybe she saw the bullshit using the seer stone to see through the b’s. Yeah, what about that? No, I don’t know. But his sister didn’t like him. The sister didn’t like Joseph. And so I do think it was starting to become a huge problem where Joseph wasn’t coming through. He wasn’t even doing his treasure digging buddies, right? Like, they were getting pissed. They’re beating him up. Like all this stuff is happening. His dad’s got this bad reputation of drinking too much, you know, I think he’s starting to wear out all the wicks, right? Like, he. He’s running out of light here.

So. Yeah, okay, so. And when you say the sister, you mean Willard Chase’s sister was like, dude, stop helping this guy. Okay, well, she had a seer stone too, as well. And that’s where he very first was. His first encounter ever with a seer stone was because of her, because she used to do that. And then he’s like, hey, let me. She’s steaming over this. Like, what? I’m the one that told him how to do this, and now he’s, like, acting like. And the rock. Okay. So again, in Willard Chase’s words, he says, a few weeks after this conversation, uh, with Joseph, he comes to my house and relates the following story.

On the 22 September, he arose early in the morning, took a one horse wagon that someone had stayed over the night of their house without leave or license, and together with his wife, repaired to the hill which contained the book. He left the wife in the wagon, as you would by the road, went alone to the hill, a distance of 30 or 40 rods from the road. Said he took the book out of the ground and hit it in a treetop and returned home. I already. I’m already confused is. And I assume that this is because he didn’t have the chest.

So in lieu of having a chest, what, the next best thing is going and bury it on top of another hill? I’m not seeing a tree trunk. It was a tree trunk. So it was like a tree trunk that was already cut or whatever. So he squirreled, literally squirreled it away. Okay. He then went to the town of Macedon to work, and after ten days having been suggested someone had gotten the book, his wife went after him, hired a horse, went home in the afternoon, and stayed long enough to drink one cup of tea, which was not a no no yet.

That comes later. Then went for his book, found it safe, took it off his frock and wrapped around it, put it under his arm, and ran all the way home, a distance of 2 miles. He said that he should think it weighed about 60 pounds and was sure it would weigh at least 40. On his return home, he said he was attacked by two men in the woods, knocked them both down, and made his escape, arrived safe and secured his treasure. This is already giving me some Freemason vibes. This almost sounds like Hiram Abiff having this, like, secret of masonry.

And the ruffians try and take it from you. Although in Joseph Smith’s version, he beats the ruffians up and he makes home with the treasure. Yes. And don’t forget, his brother’s name is Hiram, so he knows these things. He is a freemason. I mean, he is known to be a really big time storyteller. Like, if you read the book that his mom wrote about him, it’s like a whole thing. Like, he would talk about, like, all the natives that lived on this land and the horses they had and all this stuff and that. None of that.

It’s just not archaeologically true. Still sounds cool, though. Like, there’s frogs and angels and stones and, like, ghosts, prophecies and books, but there’s fighting. Fighting bears and toads and stuff. Okay. And then. And then Willard Chase says he then observed that if it had not been for that stone, which he acknowledged belonged to me, he would not have obtained the book. So that’s. That’s kind of a nice little personal note in there. A few days afterwards, he told me, one of my neighbors, that he had not got any such book, nor ever had one, and that he had told me the story to deceive the damned fool, meaning me, to get him to make him a chest.

So he goes around to chase his neighbors, and he’s like, this freaking rube over here. I told him this whole story, and he’s going to make me a chest. But he didn’t make him a chest, right? So I don’t know. His neighbors have become disgusted with his foolish stories. He determined to go back to Pennsylvania to avoid what he called persecution. His wits were now put to task to contrive how he should get money to bear these expenses. He met me one day in the streets of Palmyra, a rich man whose name was Martin Harris, and addressed him.

I have a commandment from God to ask the first man I meet in the street to give me $50. Assist me in doing the work of the Lord by translating a golden Bible. Martin, being naturally a credulous man, hands Joseph the money. I want to know, how condensed is this story? Does he literally run up to a dude in the street and he’s like, God says, you got to give me 50. And Martin’s like, oh, God. He’s like, fishing for his wallet. Yeah, God says, so here. Jeez. He was alone because if his wife was there, wouldn’t have happened because she wasn’t into this.

But also, I want to tell everyone, this is how my daughter got engaged, which I think to this day is still crazy, that her guy that she met walked up to her in a crowded airport and said, God told me to talk to you. She’s the one that doesn’t talk to me anymore. And I’m like, from the get go, I was like, the neighbors. I was like, nah. Nah. Well, crazy God, apparently. And you said that the Emma wouldn’t have been up for this. Are you sure? Emma wouldn’t be like, actually, it was 100? It wasn’t? No, no.

Martin Harris loose scene was very wise, and she comes into this way later, and she loses the first 100 and something pages of the book of Mormon that they do together. Because she’s like, okay, okay, just let me see him. And then he’s like, no. And she’s like, yeah, so this goes on for months and months and months. And then eventually he’s like, I have to let my wife see it or I can’t pay you anymore. Like, it’s serious. We’re going to lose our farm. And she’s like, give me the paper. Give it. And so he gets it.

And she’s like, okay. So then he’s like, oh, can I have those? She’s like, nope. Go get Joseph Smith. And I want to know what was in him, because if it’s so benevolent, he can tell me. Pop quiz, bitch. Yep. And then Joseph actually, I have to give this to him. He’s like, well, God said, because you did that, I can’t do those pages anymore. You’ve tainted them. Good job. Yeah, now they’re tainted. And we never have that. Never again. And so it’s pretty good on his behalf, I have to say. You must have been prepped for that one.

Here’s the final paragraph. In this little excerpt from Mormonism unveiled, it says, in the spring 1829, Harris goes to Pennsylvania and is on his return to Palmyra, reports that the prophet’s wife, in the month of June following would be delivered a male child that would be able, when two years old, to translate the gold Bible. This is new to me. I don’t remember hearing this. Then he said, you will see Joseph Smith junior walking through the streets of Palmyra with a golden Bible under his arm, with a gold breastplate on a gold sword hanging by his side.

This, however, proved to be false. I think this was from the grandpa. And again, mark the name Azale, like as Azel. I mean, come on. Anyway, whatever. I do think I remember the grandpa stating something about this, if I remember correctly, so. But that one, I can’t. I can’t 100. So I do know he was born in a call, and I do know when he was born, it was a big deal because the grandpa had already said he was going to be a prophet and a seer. And so when he was born in the call, which means in the amniotic bag without it punctuated, like just came out, bag and all, which is super rare, even in this day.

But it does happen. It’s like a sign. So the dad, Joseph Smith Sr. Ran around the whole town telling everyone, it’s true. It’s true. You know, he’s going to be a prophet. So, yeah, that did happen. And the, and the bridge here, as I understand it is that this Martin Harris, the guy that gives him the 50 and enables this final stretch for the rest of Mormonism to continue. Oh, yeah. Tell he broke himself and lost his family, his wife and everything he owned. Martin Harris, you mean? Right. And Martin Harris is the link between this Joseph Smith frog connection and then the salamander papers because Hoffman attributes the papers to something that Martin Harris wrote.

Well, it wasn’t so actually he, so a little background on Hoffman is Mark Hoffman went on an LDS mission and he had lost his, um, his belief in the church. And he still went because the pressure. And so when he was there, he, he started thinking of ways to, like, fraud the church because he hated the church and he was really a good forger. And so when he starts into all this stuff, he, he’s doing it for money or more importantly, for him to trade fake documents for real documents. So it was a fake that, that particular paper.

He knew it would look real because Martin Harris was closely attached to Joseph Smith. He got this old book and he’s like, oh, looky what we have here. In the back of this book, there’s a paper. Oh, you know, and he took it to the church. So the church is like, oh, shit, I, this looks bad. So they’re like, yeah, we’ll, we’ll pay you for it. We’ll trade you for it. We’ll do whatever for it. And he did this often with them. This wasn’t a one and done thing. He did this for like historical document, all kinds of things.

But you have to understand the level to which he went is he would actually get the ink and make sure it was like, all correct. Like all the right inks, all the right, like whatever it’s supposed to be. Certain chemicals, all kinds of stuff that they, yeah, I saw a document long time ago. But basically he would find documents like books from the period, and then he would either burn them or something and then turn those ashes into ink so that if they did carbon dating, it would date to the time that you would expect it to be.

And likewise, he would find, like, old books that had blank pages or ones that he could remove what was on them originally. So everything would have dated correctly. You have to analyze it a little bit more than I guess the Mormons did because, and this is kind of funny too, right? That he presents this to the Mormon church and no one was like, oh, this is why. There’s no way this is true. Joseph Smith talking about, they saw it and they were like, uh oh, this sounds like they were like, this is a bad thing. And then he made sure.

Well, January 6, 1984, was when he sold the letter. And he sold it not to the church. Like, they’re so careful. This is so mobster. They made sure to sell it to some random bishop. His name was F. Christensen. And then it was just a random guy, like in a. That would be like a priest, like a bishop, like just a normal guy. And he donated that letter to the church. But the guy originally gave him $40,000 for it back in the eighties, which was a ton of money. And they knew that this story was out there about the frog thing and the toad, and nobody really knew about it mainstream in the church, per se, because we didn’t, we didn’t go deep diving into all this stuff.

And so it got so far as when they received the letter, it was actually released in the church publication as Church news, April 28, 1985. And it became taught in high schools, churches, seminaries, in magazines. I mean, they made this a big deal. So, like, once they got the letter, they went balls to the walls with it and were like, yay, lookie here. So why do you think they made a big deal out of that? But, like, didn’t want to talk about magic hats and seer stones, but they’re like, oh, yeah, salamander. Let’s go. My opinion.

Okay, two reasons. Because at the time, one thing isn’t an opinion. At the time, the McClellan papers were, like a big deal in the church, and it was this big journals of the McClellans. And they knew that if that came to light, it would not be good for the churches because they didn’t know it. McClelland’s were kind of not in Joseph’s corner. So they were worried about this, and they were saying that this collection was coming up, so they were kind of trying to pregame some other things that might come up, like the hat or whatever, whatever.

And then also he was, he was working on that. Like, Mark Hoffman was actually working on a whole McClellan paper thing for the church, but it didn’t go forward because he got caught first. But my conjecture is, is the church allowed this to get out because they knew about the toad story. It looks so crappy. Why not make it a salamander, which has been linked notoriously with white magic, good things, rosary, rosicrucians, everything, all this stuff. It’s a better light than a toad, which is honestly linked with black magic most of the time, and witches and dark stuff and blah, blah, blah.

So I think they were like, yeah, this looks better than the story we have that might get out in this McClellan collection that he’s talking about. So why don’t we just let this out and let it go? And also, if it ever becomes a problem, let this guy take the fall for it, which I think they did, because he. He killed two people with, like, the bombs that are with stuff in them, you know, like nails and whatever debris in them, and they were pipe bombs. And yet the one he set off in his own car to kill himself, they didn’t.

He didn’t do that. He didn’t put extra things in it. So I’m like, that looks weird in general. Like, if you know what you’re doing, then you don’t do it right for yourself, and you’re trying to get away with things like that. Seems stupid to me. Where this guy was stupid, obviously, like, he. He didn’t make that mistake with anyone else. He didn’t do anything else. And the wife was saying, because they interviewed his wife, and he used to talk a lot, a lot more than the church would. Like, he used to kind of sing like a canary, and he was like, you know, I just.

I just got to in it. There was a lot going on. I just kept going because it worked. I couldn’t believe it worked. Like, it was kind of one of those things. And he never says anything about, like, actually trying to unalive himself as far as that goes. But one other thing happened. When he goes to prison. He’s in jail, and he’s doing all these interviews. He’s doing stuff left and right, and then all of a sudden, he just shuts up. He just stops talking and tries to unalive himself. And they find him in his cell, but they don’t find him right away, even though he’s in segregation, like, because, you know, death row type stuff.

Like, he’s, like, one on one, and he’s laying on the floor for over 10 hours or something on the floor of his cell in a visible area, and nobody sees this, and they just let him sit there and rot. And the funny thing is, the only thing that happened to him, no brain damage, no nothing. No nothing wrong with him. But he laid on his right hand, his writing hand, until it was permanently neurologically damaged. It seems too easy. Like, he never spoke again, cutting through all the nuance and, like, the subtle implications. Is. Is there an implication that the mormon church is the one that did the bombs? Like, they’re the ones that were sending them, and they.

And they try and set him up and it didn’t go off because I kind of feel like, I kind of feel like they didn’t want him dead. I feel like they did the bombs to the other two people that knew about the situation, trying to clean up the mess. And then he knew what was up and was trying to like get the hell out of Dodge. And then they put one in his car, in his own car. And, and that doesn’t make sense either. Like, it just seems odd all in general that you would make it differently for yourself if you’re really trying to like unalive yourself.

And so, you know, they didn’t do that. They didn’t add the, the debris to the pipe bomb for him. And a lot of people are like, oh, he was just trying to, what? Get arrested? That doesn’t even sound normal. Like these people were friends with mobsters and gangsters. I mean, they, they just were like, we’ve done the mob story, we’ve done the mormon mob stuff. Like this is all going on after that. So they had connections at this time. And I do not doubt for 1 second that they tried to make this go away. And then he starts singing once he gets in prison and they’re like, you better shut up.

And that was like a warning to him, like, hey. And he never, he doesn’t talk anymore. He doesn’t. So, so one of the theories then is that the church embraces the salamander papers, which turn out to be forgeries, at least publicly facing. And the reason they do this is to both suppress the toad story and the possibility of these McClellan papers coming out. But the McClellans, you said, weren’t in Joseph’s corner. Can you explain to me how, how can you even be a Mormon and not be in Joseph’s corner? It seems like there is no Mormonism without Joseph Smith being the prophet of Mormonism, right? So the funny thing is about these McClellan papers, they actually did come to light.

But actually he was lying about the McClellan papers and he was just making up a story that they, they were finding them or working on them or something, and he totally lied about it. And then shortly after he goes to prison, the real McClellan papers come out and make a whole bunch of problems for the church. Like a whole bunch. I can’t remember exactly what was in them, but it was like a bombshell for the church. They were trying to shut it down quick. But I do think they were worried about that. They were worried about his knowledge.

They were worried what he saw when he saw it, why he saw it. And they were also worried about the story getting out because it sounds too magical. And even if it does get out at this point, I’ll tell you, as a Mormon, if you go up to anyone in the streets and you say, hey, did you ever hear that story about the toad and Joseph Smith? He’ll say, the person will say, like I once said, that was a lie. That was George. That was not George. That was Hoffman and Mark Hoffman’s story. And they’ll be like, no, it was real.

That really happened, though. And they’re like, no, it was a Sal. You’ve got your facts wrong. It’s a salamander, and it was a lie. And so it did do what its intended purpose. This was. If my conjecture is correct, I’m not saying it is correct. I’m just saying, how simple is that, to wrap it with a nice little bow, like, it’s just a little bit too much for me. So I don’t know. I found, I guess, some of the highlights of the McClellan papers and what they had in them that the church didn’t want to get out.

So one aspect was detailed accounts of polygamy before it was publicly acknowledged by the church. So this is one of those. A general disillusionment with Joseph Smith. So I guess McClellan was critical of his leadership, and he accused him of all sorts of moral and spiritually failings. He also had a whole bunch of accounts of early church leadership disputes, like all the dirty laundry about the fights that went on in the back rooms that people didn’t know about. And then finally, I guess the biggest one was that, that he was skeptical about the origins of the Book of Mormon itself and that he had doubts of its divine source after initially accepting it.

So this was almost like an Exmo in the makings paper. This was like one of the original Exmo papers. Early eczema. Way to go. McClellan’s. Yeah. And then actually, it made a big mess for them because I’ll tell you, this murder happened, right? So the person that went to the prison to interview about the Hoffman stuff, again, that they shut down because of his hand, they got somebody else to talk, which was the Lafferty brothers, because the guy that went to go get the interview, they were like, wait, you want to talk to Crazy Mormons? We’re crazy Mormons.

We’ll talk. And so this made a huge mess because this book is the under the banner of heaven movie on Hulu. And so it made a huge problem for the church getting out way more things than, and actually changed the temple rites, I believe. And not only for the Mormons, but for the Masons, because the Masons followed taking out this out of their ceremonies with their death oath of slitting your own throat. And that’s because this, this guy they blood atoned, slit the throat of a woman and her baby and almost decapitated the baby. And it changed quickly after they sang.

So I’m just like, that made it even bigger mess. So I’m sure the church was just like frickin Hoffman, you know? But yeah, yeah. So this in itself is a fascinating. We’ll have to explore this in some structured way in the future, but that people fell in love with Joseph Smith’s book of Mormon and then started questioning it, like, wait a minute, this guy might be making this all up. Wait a minute, this book might be all made up. But they kept. There was, I guess, a sentiment that even if Joseph Smith made it all up, it’s still divinely inspired, that somehow a lie, like God used this lying person to still relay his actual message, but he’s going to relay it through someone that might be lying, but that this does not remove the divine aspect of what he’s saying just because it’s coming through the mouth of the liar.

Hard for me to wrap my head around, but I guess I understand we should do one called lying for the Lord, because this is a real saying or bleeding the beast. These two sayings have a lot to do with what you’re talking about. And that’s because. Because now they’ve already established something that’s working, right. They can see. And Brigham Young, the next person that’s coming up in the church, is also noticing, hey, he’s got a following. And even the early members of the church will state, Brigham Young’s church was not Joseph Smith’s church. So it becomes a whole mess, you know, Mormonism.

Yeah. Yep. Nope. And so it gets real crazy. And not only that, but also we should do one on the people that were the witnesses of the Book of Mormonization. Their stories, eventually it all comes out, like spiritualize or this or that. And. And it’s never a straight answer. Like, it just isn’t. So. Well, this is one of the other notes, is that the part of the reason people were still giving credit to the Book of Mormon, even if they didn’t give credit to Joseph Smith, was because of witnesses, like Martin Harris being one of them and another guy, David Whitmer.

And that even though both of them became disillusioned with Smith and they were like, this guy’s a liardeh. But neither of them retracted their feelings on the book of Mormon itself. They were like, how did this asshole get a hold of, like, such a divine inspired book? I’ve seen it for myself. I know it’s true. But I’m assuming that they didn’t read it because Joseph Smith’s the only one that ever actually translated it. Right. Well, and Cowdrey, like, certain people had things to gain. I mean, like, cowdery’s related. He’s an attorney. That’s going to look bad for him, you know? Like, there are certain things about these people and their character, and Martin Harris can’t go back on now.

He’s lost his wife, his farm, his money. Like, if he goes back on it now, he loses everything. Like, this is all he has left, period. And so, like, I kind of see why he would say what he said, because if you bet the farm on it, literally, you’re not going to be like, well, okay, JK. Like, and I don’t know, maybe Joseph. Joseph is a brilliant person. Like, I will say this. He’s no dummy, okay? They try to make him out as a dummy, and that pisses me off the most with the church, because they’re like, he just a farm boy that couldn’t read or write.

No, no, he read Agrippa. I can promise you that. And he read some of the maggots, too, because he just knew too much stuff. It’s. It’s well documented that he knew certain things that he should have never known if he didn’t read stuff. And so I hate when they make him in that light, because he’s actually pretty damn brilliant, even though he’s diabolical, right? Well, says the x. Mendez. Right, right. I mean, apparently, he was charming. All kinds of scrapes and such. Picks up William Morgan’s ex. Little. Not ex, as a widow. I mean, it’s just an interesting situation all the way around, even though he is actually blamed for Morgan’s death, along with multiple people.

So it’s just. Were they there? Like, I know Cowdrie Washington said to be there. There were a couple people, and I think Whitmer might have been one of them, that were supposedly there at Morgan’s drowning, so they say. And maybe that had something to do with it. You know, maybe they were, like, in a pact or. I don’t know. You know, I’m actually. I mean, I went to public school my entire life, and I never remember Joseph Smith coming up in the american history class, or the Morgan affair which gave birth to the anti masonic movement, which was a major political influence for about a century.

And it’s wild to me that these are only things I’m finding about way later in life. Yet it seems way more relevant than some of the dumber stuff that they had us memorize and take quizzes on. This is actually seems like it is shaping american culture in very pronounced ways. More so than, I don’t know, like any of the other battles that I don’t even remember anymore. Right. And it’s just accusations. But you have, when you put it together, it’s like he was the way they described it, like a seer prophet. Not prophet, but like a future seer or something.

I’ll find the quote. But like, they’re talking about who was involved in the Morgan affair, possibly disappearance of him. And I was listening to the account from his wife when she was speaking to the guy that was supposed to be taking her to go file some report because he’s missing and she’s freaking out. But like, all of this was part of that. And, and she’s talking about who she saw last, how this occurred, blah, blah, blah. I’ll find where I found it. And this is how it comes up. And they never, of course, name, you know, Joseph Smith.

They’re like, oh, the, the glass looker from good Joe from such and such. And I think it was Vermont. So, like, it’s interesting, I mean, to say the least. But they, I’m pretty sure Whitmer was named as well, and I’ll find out. So if they made, like a death pact saying, like, hey, do you ever tell my secret? I’m going to tell your secret. Like, I mean, that goes a lot further than something else. And then to shut his wife up. Hey, you want to be my wife? Come here, little cutie. Like, you know, because she cried, she made a fit, you know, in polygamy.

Here’s the thing. The first wife’s important. She’s the one, like, she’s the wife and she’s the one that gets to dress in black. She’s the one that gets to be presented. She’s, she’s numero uno even now, like in polygamy. And Morgan’s wife shows up at the funeral dressed in black, hysterical, throwing herself on the coffin. You’re not supposed to do that when your wife number, whatever she was, she was way down the line. And so, you know, it was a thing and it was not, it was not looked at. Well, it was like, you better get your trash.

Look at this hussy jumping on all these coffins. Yeah, she was pissed. So I’m wondering if she was like. I mean, he obviously sincerely smittens women left and right. Like, real. I mean, he must have been. Yeah. That talisman, man. It was like love potion number nine and dream. Maybe add something else. That was magic. The magic stick. Yep. I don’t know. But I’m saying this like, he. He had women not only falling for him, backing him, even women that were supposedly witches, like, all kinds of crazy stuff we can get into that were just, hey, girl, I got that.

I got that divining rod. And they were like, oh, Joseph. Yep. They’re like, oh, come scrape with me. Andreas is going to be so mad at us when he sees this. He know he loves us. And honestly, there’s something else, too, because this whole idea that people get into mormonism and then they start to criticize Joseph Smith, the person, and then the justification becomes, well, it’s still divinely inspired. And who are we to judge God on who he decides to be his conduit? But under that same logic, where you’re like, let’s not throw the baby out with the bath or with the bathwater here.

Let’s hold on to the book. But maybe criticize the prophet. But you could almost take that exact same logic and put it to Hoffman and be like, look, look, you know, maybe Hoffman was a forger. Maybe he didn’t make this up, but he did it under the divine inspiration of God, and therefore, we’re going to keep believing the. Does anyone believe the salamander, or have they been completely discredited? And you’re not allowed to mention him. Nobody. The conjecture that I made was mine alone. I’ve never, ever heard anybody else present that idea. And they just think he’s a dirty bastard.

Nope. That Hoffman was a dirty bastard for. For doing this and scanning. Yep. There is no one else. But I’m sorry. Like, when I start to. Maybe it’s because I was raised by gang mentality, people like the bikers and stuff in my family. Like, I’m like, that’s just a little too convenient for me. Like, I. You know, coming from a family that did some nefarious things, like, you’ve watched sons of anarchy. Like, they’re all dead, so I don’t care. Like, it’s fine. But, like. Like, you know, my uncle was the secretary of the sundowners, and that doesn’t mean you just go be nice and write some notes.

Like, that’s not what’s happening. So, you know, I just think that there was possibly a situation there that. That they took care of. I mean, that’s just me and Justin. You opened the door on this. But I’ve seen some of the sons of Anarchy, although I. I could never fully get into it because the very first episode of Sons of Anarchy, all these badass bikers get up in a bar, and they’re like, you know, you go over here and you go over here, and then he point to this one dude, and they’re like, you hack into the FBI database.

And I was like, what the hell is this? Okay, that’s. This is sales machine. This is the old days. Yeah, yeah. There was no hacker that I knew of, and my. Well, if there was, it was like with a hatchet, not with a computer, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, no, they did call it going to church, and they would cut your tattoo off, and that was real. So. Yeah, so just because I guess this is the best episode out of any to lay all this out. So the official, as I understand it, as a normie, and I’ve seen some history channel documentaries and I’ve talked to you about it, but the general premise is that Hoffman is disillusioned with Mormonism, sees a way to not only discredit them, but also to make a buck doing it.

He almost, almost on a tangent, he’s like the Leo tactical of Mormonism. He’s like the guy that’s like, I’m going to write this fake thing and sell people on it. So there’s that aspect of it, and then it comes out that it’s a forgery. And then the Mormon church is like, uh oh, we got duped. You know, we’re going to take back all those things that we said, all those articles, all the stuff we were like, hey, look at this cool salamander. Forget all that existed, egg on our face. That was all a big scam. Then there’s an aspect of it where the Mormon church that this is real and that they want to disclose it and then discredit it on purpose.

So it’s like a controlled burn so that they’ve got control over the entire narrative from the time that it gets released, all the way to removing it back from the public. So there’s a nice little bow to tie on top of all that. And then I guess there could be another version of this where this was all true. Like, it was actually true, but the church wants to get rid of it by then. Like, falsely claiming that it was a forgery. Right? Those seem like the three main ideas. Well, and it does take the heat off the toe thing, because even if you do believe something happened, like if they didn’t get rid of it fully in your mind as a Mormon, like, no, no, that was that crazy guy over there.

If you held onto it a little bit, then it becomes this being of light. Like, if you research salamander, it has far different implications, including into rosicrucianism, which doesn’t sound as bad as witchcraft. Let’s be real. Like, if you have to pick, like, this way over here is way better. So I think this is linked to like this alchemical version of it that a salamander was apparently could live through a fire because there was all these historical claims where a house would burn down and salamanders would come out of the fire pita it still on fire and stuff and be unscathed, I think there’s deeper than that.

There’s like some cool, like, puns and like language stuff that ties into it. But yeah, so, so let’s swap out this icky toad with a salamander as an upgrade, only to remove them both from history by saying, like, they’re both but the toad. Just to be clear, the toad story, I don’t haven’t found any documentation that Joseph Smith himself was like, and there’s this toad. Both of the counts that are main. One of them was the one that we read over, which came from Willard Chase, who said that he heard it from not just Joseph Smith himself because he worked directly with it, but that he was also recounting what Joseph Smith Sr.

Told him. So all we’ve got is a bunch of second or third hand source hearsays that Joseph Smith relayed a story about a toad that turns into a man and knocks him out. Right, right. Yep. So. And it’s been said before, like and after. So I find that super interesting for this, this new episode of that podcast where they just happen to be talking about this guy that was devil possessed and sold his soul to Baal and tattooed himself with Baal and all this crazy stuff. But his story starts the same damn way. And I’m like, really? That’s weird.

Like, I’ve heard it a couple different times. So maybe this is something that, you know, is a thing when you conjure, you know, who knows? I wonder which Bael, though, because there’s so many. It just means Lord. It would be like saying, I met the transformer. You’re like, which one? Like a whole suite of them, right? Yeah, who knows? But it was an interesting. I mean, it’s interesting in general and also to know, like, what we know as it goes forward. Like, oh, well, they go ahead and say, yeah, this is folk magic. This is blah, blah, blah in Quinn’s book.

And then they’ll say anything about the folk magic when they know because they’re writing it. This is the fourth pentacle of Jupiter in solomonic magic. I’m like, that’s not the same thing, though. Now you’re talking about goetic magic. You’re not talking about folk magic. This is something very different. They do the same thing, and that’s where I’m seeing it. Because Quinn was actually told by the church to write that. He writes it and then gets excommunicated, they say, because of his, you know, he was gay. And because he was gay, they say it was because of that.

But actually they knew that before he probably did the book. So it seems so similar. Like, oh, he’s just crazy gay guy over there. Like, it feels like they do this a lot. You know, it’s like, oh, make it go away. Make this go away. Even Dan Vogel, who is alive and. And now writes books about it, he’s kind of the new Quinn. He’s like, knows everything. He’ll say everything. He’ll say what everything is. Like, what pinnacle everything, everything. And then they’ll be like, so what does that mean? And he’s like, beats me. And I’m like, okay, good story.

Unfortunately, we will never know. But I would love to know what Mormonism turns into in, like, 200 years from now. Like, what are their takes on the folk magic and the toad and all this stuff? Does it church at some point in the future? Like, all right, the toad was real. There’s a toad that’s punching people out out there. Watch yourself. Well, the weird thing with the Mormon church in its current branch of the mainstream church, only they now have places in the Vatican, which has never happened before. And I do believe they’re part of the one world order that’s going to probably come up.

And there’s. You said the Mormons have a place in the Vatican. Yep, they allowed it. And there’s pictures of him, the new prophet, with the key. He’s at St. Peter’s Basilica holding the key, doing a masonic symbol with the key. It’s hilarious, but you have to have eyes to see and ears to hear with this stuff. But, like, this is the first time ever the Catholics have been like, okay, cool, cool, cool. Come here. And so I’m like, you know, the other thing that it’s not unheard of as far as, like, a communistic order, because Joseph Smith himself made the order of Enoch, which he’s not supposed to know about Enoch, which is hilarious because, remember, he’s unlearned.

He’s not supposed to know about that, but he makes this order of Enoch where everybody gives him everything and then everybody lives under him, and they all live in this, like, communal living. And he tried to do that, too. And actually, that’s how the church, the polygamist church under Warren Jeff’s lost their whole entire town almost, because that’s how they continued it. Everything was in the prophet’s name. And when he gets arrested, bye bye town. Like, you don’t own anything anymore, so it’s a whole web. We, we. I truly believe that there’s a lot more nefarious things going on with the church, the current Mormon church and other churches of the world.

I will say that you’re blowing my mind a little bit. I’ve never before now heard that. And this is true, that March 10, 2019, was when they officially opened the Mormon temple in Rome, not far from the back. I get maybe it’s not inside Vatican City, but it is basically, they had to get permission. They had to get permission for that. Yep. This is great. I’ve never even heard about this. So this is another episode that we’re going to have to do because the pope meets with Nelson the prophet, and they’re at least get on good enough terms.

Like, all right, you can. You can move in next door. You can’t move in my neighborhood, but you can move in the neighborhood over here. But the Catholics are still very much advocating that Mormon baptisms are not real baptisms. If you were Mormon baptized, you were not actual baptized. You got to come in Catholic. Yeah, there might almost be, like, you could transfer your credits between the two. Like, could I join, like, higher up in the morning? Yeah, you’ll still have to get. Get back the same for us. They’ll make you get re baptized and everything.

But I want to say this interesting little link about your credit. Check out who Tim Ballard ran to after the Mormons kicked him out and excommunicated him. He ran straight to the catholic church. So I’m just saying on a higher level. And are you really excommunicated if you have the second anointing and you didn’t commit murder? I don’t know. Because. And you didn’t deny the Holy Ghost? That’s the only two things that I know of that after you get the second anointing and your place has been made sure that can get you out. So is he really out? Like.

No, not necessarily. Right. If we’re going by the rules. If we’re going by the rules that that’s set up with. So I’m just saying I find it interesting on all their ties together. Like, it’s. It’s happening. When people say there’s going to be a one world religion, I’m like, welcome to your day. It’s already here. Like, you haven’t seen it yet. It’s not being fully rolled out. But they. They have. It happened, trust me. So is the one world religion going to be Mormonism? No, I think they’ll make a new standardized something with all of them agreeing, which is showing in the reason why they can move next door.

They’re going to make, like, all religions true in some way. I think. I think they’re going to make it a cope aesthetic acceptance of all. That’s what I feel, but I don’t know. So in 200 years, that’s my answer. I think that we’ll definitely be in more of a one world religion, and those of us that aren’t will be wackadoos over in the corner. So who knows a while until they’ve got the 40,000 different versions of Mormonism like christians do? Or are they making it more magical because they just don’t care and they’re trying to go gnosis.

You know, my brain works in a lot of ways, so I’m always looking at it from, like, 40 different directions because one answer is just too easy. You know, there. There was. I don’t know if it’s completely dead in the water. It was. I still want to do this, but me, Andreas were talking and even started on a Joseph Smith prophet game, like a little, like, adventure rpg game. And I’m. Well, I’m kind of glad that maybe it’s taken a little bit longer than original because I. Because I’m still learning about all this because this is a big deal.

Like, this is the level where you have to fight the frog and it keeps beating you, and you got to go and get a golden breastplate and a golden sword and come back to him and, like, slay this frog, but it turns into a. A spirit of a guy, and then you’ve got, like, this is actually sounding like I’m getting sold more on Mormonism still. Well, and don’t you think it’s funny? Like, not only with the Catholics, but also that there’s so much kabbalah in Mormonism. Like, I’m telling you, like, it’s all going to blend. Like, it’s going to go across the board some which way.

Like, I just feel like they’re opening up the magical stuff. Like pulling out the hat, doing the things. Like, all this stuff we’re seeing so they can be like, we’re magical, too. And I’m biased because I was raised Roman Catholic, so I was always taught, like, you know, we’ve got the ancient knowledge that hasn’t changed. It hasn’t deviated in thousands of years, right? And Mormonism always felt like the tick tock to maybe, like, the MySpace of Roman Catholicism where it’s like, oh, that’s cute. You guys got magic, too. It’s cute magic. It’s kind of newer than I’m used to, but if you and your kids like it, that’s fine.

But, like, we’ve got the OG stuff. Like, when you’re done playing with your toys, we’ll be here waiting for you. Kind of like Ballard, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, I could see it. But then again, you have to remember, what’s the tie that might bind? You should know this answer, because you are one. The cable toe. How about Masonry? Well, you mean between, what, Roman Catholics? Not just them. Not just that. Like, what about gnostics? What about all of it? What if they just come in and say, all you have to do is believe in a higher power type stuff? What if they come in and say, we’re all going to get along, and all you have to do is believe in a higher power? Right.

I don’t know how compatible that is with Catholicism, though, because my. My simple understanding Catholicism, it’s almost like law school that. That not anyone can just go. And so, like, if you try and represent yourself in court, even with the best intentions, if you don’t know the lingo and you don’t know all the precedent and the case of the site, you’re just an absolute bumpkin. Even if you’re smart, you are an absolute rube bumpkin in the eyes of the court. And I think that that’s kind of what Catholicism is built on, is that they’ve got thousands of years of legal precedents and documents and these, like, legal cases in, like.

Like, theologically speaking, that you have to be a Roman Catholic in order to interpret all of these old decisions, because what you believe now is simply built on the foundation of thousands years of all these other papal decrees and all these other findings. So, in that regard, it’s not just a higher power, the same way that you can’t just walk into court. And you’re like, I’m innocent. And it’s like, okay, present. And you’re like, I didn’t do it. And you’re like, well, you actually have to say it in a certain way. And if you don’t know how to say it in the exact way and say why, you’re saying, and this is the case.

That’s kind of how I’ve always understood Catholicism. But what if they don’t want to change them? They just want to stop fighting, and they’re like, okay, look, you’re a little misguided, but you kind of got the gist of it. Maybe we’ll save them by letting this happen. And so I know a lot of people do not support the current pope, period. And it makes me wonder where they have allowed to so many different weird things, including Mormons, to infiltrate a place where they probably shouldn’t be. Honestly, like, I mean, honestly, like, if we put it down, like, they.

I don’t think that anyone else would have allowed it or even entertained it. And now, all of a sudden, it is. So, you know, things change. I got a feeling he just, like, Nelson is meeting with the pope, and the pope’s like, I don’t know, man. This sounds a little crazy. And Nelson’s like, dude, check out this stock portfolio. And he, like, shows him his phone. And the pope, he does have a great tomorrow, bud. Like you, we just become best friends because I think we’re. Yes, yes, exactly. Because they are one of the richest churches, and when they quote how much money they have, it’s always because of these portfolios that they show people.

But we’ve already proven that they’re really good at hiding money because there’s been some things. And so there’s some massive scandals that have to go clear into everything. And funny enough, where do Catholics come in on this? The Rotary Club. And I’ll be releasing that episode very soon. But I’m just telling you, like, it just seems like people are playing nice. It just seems like everybody needs to. Can’t we all just get along? You know? We’ll go figure that the one of the richest organizations in the world was founded by literal treasure seekers, right? It’s almost like, what if once you get to the final, final bot.

Like, once you get to the third anointing, they’re like, okay, here’s the real story. We are the world’s best treasure hunters. Prove me wrong. Let me show you the treasures that we’ve got their new Melchizedek priesthood seal. Go ahead and google it up. And then google up the seal of mammoth. You know, mammon. Mammon. And look at them side by side. And what is mammon over? He’s over money. What does the church give out for free? They give you a blue book. What about money? Magic. They give you something blue, you get something way better in return.

So all of this is like, you know, we need to do one on mystical mormonism, like. Or magic. Magic. Magic money. I don’t know, something like that. Because you’re not wrong about their portfolio. And they’re in the nwo because their first one is Microsoft. And so Billy boy and all the things like Alphabet everything. So it. Yeah, and so. Oh, the seal of mammon. Like in the goetic magical seal. But yeah, so it kind of shows it on there. But you can see it. It’s the same shape. This is exactly the same. So there’s normally inside of the seal there’s like little symbols and characters.

But for the goetic magic one. But yeah, see, it’s almost identical. So did you see that? I mean, this makes it cooler. Again, this is another cool part of Mormonism. Not. Yeah, they practice goetic magic. Yeah, I’m not opposed to that. It would have been more interesting than going to regular mass, I think, if they were actually doing, like, magic. Like, here’s today’s alchemy lesson. Yeah, for sure. Like, I mean, I get that part, but also they’re just not honest. And I think that the thing is, is, like when your seal is. Is honoring, you know, something that you shouldn’t be doing because you’re Christian.

You’re Christian. You’re not supposed to be playing with demons and such. But like, like, they are. Like they’re representing that. And they even call it the seal of Melchizedek, the seal. So they’re not hiding it very far. I mean, it’s kind of funny to me that they still use the word age. It’s so close. Like they’re right there. I mean, they’re right there. Yeah, but I mean, to be devil’s advocate in a way, right, that it makes sense that God would choose a conduit that had flaws. Cause a, like, name a person that has no flaws, right.

So it’s not like God would have this great selection of all these perfect vessels. Everyone’s going to have something wrong with them. You know, Jesus wanted to die next to, like, the thief. Right? So that there’s this aspect of it. So who are we I don’t think it was Joseph that got corrupt, though, honestly. I think he was a little misguided and stuff, and I think he was definitely doing some stuff he didn’t know about. But I think Brigham’s where it picks up real series. I don’t think. I don’t blame Joseph nearly as much as I blame Brigham.

And Brigham takes the church in a corporate, a corporate dynamic. We’ll have to do a full deep dive on just Brigham Young because. Yeah, yeah, I don’t know where I’m at on Joseph because the reading through some of the justifications of people that criticize him, but keep following the Book of Mormon, which wouldn’t exist without him. But it’s almost like, what if you really did talk to this divine spirit? And it’s like, you’re going to find this golden book, but he also tells you, like, but you’re going to be broke, so you’re going to have to figure out a way to get around and, like, do all these things that you need to do.

So maybe Joseph Smith is like, look, I’m going to scam a few people. I’m going to lie about some gold and some silver mines, but it’s all in the guise of this bigger effort that has some just cause behind it versus just a con man going from Mark to Mark to mark until he comes up with, like, the ultimate con. I don’t know. It’s hard. And they even told him he had to get over his want of money. So that was like, part of the situation from this angel. To even get the book in the first place was like, you can’t use this for personal gain.

So, you know, did he mess it up? I don’t know. Did he continue in the right way? I don’t know. But I know one thing then. Today’s church, I will give this one to Jacob, is bell that today’s church is not the Church of Joseph Smith. It’s just not. For better or for worse. Would you rather have been a Mormon growing up from, like, straight up Joseph Smith times? I think I’d rather believe in folk magic and a couple crazy things than corporatized corruption. Sure. And how much did Joseph Smith benefit in his lifetime? Like, did he get rich and live life of opulence? This is all posthumous that he gets all this credit, right? Yep.

He was still poor. He. He was just trying to spend all his money on building temples and stuff. Like, yes, he. He had some along the way that he screwed over and over and over and over because he starts his own bank and then all this stuff. But do I think he was doing it to screw them over? No, I think he really thought he was making a good idea. Like he ran for president of the United States. Like he was trying to do something that a, they were never going to allow him to do, first of all, and they still won’t to this day be, they’re, they’re never going to let him go forward with all this craziness because it seems crazy.

Right? Like, so, I mean, they just, I think he was doing his best with what he had. Right. Like, can you fault him for that? I don’t know. He never gave up. I’ll give him that. They tarred and feathered him, you know, I mean, he paid some prices for this. He must have believed in it on some level. Like, really. That’s why I think he saw something. I really do. Why would you risk everything and die for it and, and have your brother killed for it and your family? You don’t even know what’s going to happen to them after your death and you still are going hard in the paint.

That’s crazy to me. That, that’s a whole nother level. That’s dedication, you know? So this might be a good place to end it just because I’ve never heard you talk this positively about Joseph Smith. So we’ll go out on Heidi’s praising Joseph Smith for once. Yes, we will. Cause Brigham’s much worse. So what do you got going on? Anything that we should plug? Any cool interviews you’ve been doing? Sure. Sure. Yeah. I’ve been hitting it hard. I go twice a week letting out all the new stuff. Twice a week on Spotify, once a week on YouTube.

You guys, they hate my stuff. I just can’t put my stuff on there very often because it gets me in trouble. We do have Nathan Reynolds that interviews done wrapped up. It’s going to be coming out soon. It’s already out for Patreon. We have some fun stuff in the works on Nazis and how they play into all of this and also always murder Mormons and mayhem. I do have an episode out right now about the old diddler on the Patreon, so pretty interesting stuff. And I don’t have anything much going on. I’m going to actually, I’m going to be part of a live harp technology demonstration later this week, so I’ll let you guys know.

How funny. That’s scary. This will be my first time interacting directly with Harp, so hopefully it’ll be a fun one. Well, hopefully it just swoops right over you like that’s the best case scenario. Right. Well, I haven’t found my golden book yet, so hopefully God’s going to use me as his next conduit, so he can’t take me out fully. This might. This storm might actually unearth it. Yeah, this is going to unearth the next book. Mormonism 2.0. Oh, my gosh. That’ll be. Well, hopefully not at your house, like, down the road away. Yeah, 2 miles away.

Exactly. On a hill. My gosh, that’s scary. Yeah. Not. Not close to. I don’t know if I would even want it that close. No way. But yes. Good luck. Tie down everything. I don’t know if I’d stay there. But you say you’re good where you’re at, so I don’t know. That sounds scary. I’ve got faith. Look, you’re gonna have to move fast. Conspiracy cards from paranoid American are here. Reflex bigfoot in the woods stay lying, that’s sex. MK Ultra no cap every y’all. 51 is a trap. Trap Roswell crash what’s that? They hide the truth from conspiracy cars flipping what’s the deal? Conspiracy cars.

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[tr:tra].